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How are we to explain these "miracles?"

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PsychoSarah

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Still haven't seen you support this statement. How could you? What is it besides prejudice?

:doh: you seriously have never heard of supposed miracles being disproven? How about the Shroud of Torin (probably spelled that wrong), which was thought to have an impossible to explain image of the Virgin Mary in the cloth in such as way that would have been impossible for how old it was? Turns out the shroud isn't near as old as claimed, after scientists were finally allowed to test the fibers and date them.

How about the Evangelical healing events which so often are shown to be people paid off to pretend to be ill and healed?

How about the fact that turning water into wine is so easy to fake thousands of mediocre magicians can do it?

I highly doubt you couldn't yourself photoshop a "miracle" if you so desired, like so many UFO and Bigfoot pictures.

Heck, there are people who have made a career out of disproving fake miracles, psychic powers, and the like. That is how many fakes are out there.

It isn't prejudice, I find the non decaying saints interesting, and await either confirmation or refuting of them as a miracle, although given the questionable "goodness" of some of the bodies I don't feel it to be likely. But I suppose I could be wrong. There are some proposed miracles that catch my attention as "maybes". I always look for some sign of the supernatural or miracles. I'm kinda meh on ghosts. However, I always exercise caution and attempt to get as much accurate information about the proposed miracles as I can so I'm not fooled by the many fakes.
 
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stevevw

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:doh: you seriously have never heard of supposed miracles being disproven? How about the Shroud of Torin (probably spelled that wrong), which was thought to have an impossible to explain image of the Virgin Mary in the cloth in such as way that would have been impossible for how old it was? Turns out the shroud isn't near as old as claimed, after scientists were finally allowed to test the fibers and date them.
Well the jury is still out for the shroud of Turin. Recent tests have indicated that it may well be dated back to the time of Jesus. An earth quake around 33AD would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock. Not just that the radio active emission would have increased the level of carbon 14 isotopes atomic strains in the shroud which could have affected the dating methods in the past. But further rests have found that the soil in the cloth is from Jerusalem. Other tests used infrared light and Raman spectroscopy, respectively, while the third employed a test analyzing different mechanical parameters relating to voltage. The results date the cloth to between 300 B.C. and 400 A.D.,

Shroud Of Turin Real? New Research Dates Relic To 1st Century, Time Of Jesus Christ

 
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Subduction Zone

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Well the jury is still out for the shroud of Turin. Recent tests have indicated that it may well be dated back to the time of Jesus. An earth quake around 33AD would have been strong enough to release neutron particles from crushed rock. Not just that the radio active emission would have increased the level of carbon 14 isotopes atomic strains in the shroud which could have affected the dating methods in the past. But further rests have found that the soil in the cloth is from Jerusalem. Other tests used infrared light and Raman spectroscopy, respectively, while the third employed a test analyzing different mechanical parameters relating to voltage. The results date the cloth to between 300 B.C. and 400 A.D.,

Shroud Of Turin Real? New Research Dates Relic To 1st Century, Time Of Jesus Christ


ROFLMAO!!!

Earthquakes do not release neutrons. Please, please, please.

Wait a second, you are a poe, right?
 
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theophilus777

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How about the Shroud of Torin (probably spelled that wrong), which was thought to have an impossible to explain image of the Virgin Mary

Sorry Sarah, this is just prejudice on your part. You clearly don't even know what it is. You really wouldn't confuse something a man was buried in with an artifact of His Mother's, knowing He was ripped open from head to toe and His burial cloth would've been matted to his no longer existent skin and coagulated into one big scab.

This wouldn't be a miracle anyway, so your concept of "fake miracle" can't apply.

How about the Evangelical healing events which so often are shown to be people paid off to pretend to be ill and healed?

How about them? You really think you have evidence of this? I think what you have is hearsay.

How about the fact that turning water into wine is so easy to fake thousands of mediocre magicians can do it?

What is that supposed to mean?

Heck, there are people who have made a career out of disproving fake miracles, psychic powers, and the like. That is how many fakes are out there.

I don't think so, no. Who pays someone to do this? Not for Christians, which is your claim.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Sorry Sarah, this is just prejudice on your part. You clearly don't even know what it is. You really wouldn't confuse something a man was buried in with an artifact of His Mother's, knowing He was ripped open from head to toe and His burial cloth would've been matted to his no longer existent skin and coagulated into one big scab.

This wouldn't be a miracle anyway, so your concept of "fake miracle" can't apply.



How about them? You really think you have evidence of this? I think what you have is hearsay.


We have plenty of evidence of fake faith healers. I doubt if you have any evidence of genuine faith healers. Want to trade?
 
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Subduction Zone

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Pleadians. He meant pleadians.



SZ, you still haven't learned to correctly apply Poe's Law ...

:doh:


I know how to apply it. I know one of the main rules is that a poe can never admit to being a poe.

It is a slight no no, but it was a little jab at the poster.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's not just a question of admitting it or not, it's that to be a Poe you need to be unable to tell. You couldn't tell, therefore he is in fact a Poe. Whether he was serious or parody is irrelevant, that's the law.

Now how about that Raman spectroscopy? Is that where we analyze the noodles?

Wrong, he is only a poe (please note the lower case "p") if he does not believe what he posted. Sadly there are fundies that do believe that nonsense. That is what makes poe's so difficult to detect. Is it live or is it Magnavox?
 
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stevevw

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ROFLMAO!!!

Earthquakes do not release neutrons. Please, please, please.

Wait a second, you are a poe, right?

Whats a poe. I am merely linking what was reported in the most recent info on the shroud. I am not saying its true or false. The scientist involved has evidently written papers on the subject which I cannot source after doing a search. As far as neutrons being released from crushed rock I dont know and am only going by what the scientist has proposed. But after doing another search on a more skeptical sight it does appear though not conclusive that earthquake activity can be associated with variations in background neutron levels. Once again this is what is reported by scientists so you can blame them if they are wrong. The same sight by the way in no way believes that the shroud is true.
Depleted Cranium » Blog Archive » No, An Earthquake Did Not Create the Shroud of Turin or Skew Carbon Dating

You have to remember he is actually supporting a natural event for why the image might have got on the shroud. From radiation released from crushed rocks during an earthquake. So its actually taking away from the miraculous claims of Jesus rising up through the cloth.

I know tests were done in 1988 and they seemed to show that the shroud was dated to around the 7th to 8th century. But some have said that those tests were contaminated by laboratory and other cloth that was used to patch the shroud. There is no conclusive evidence either way. There have been various tests done and some have brought up some unusual findings. Like the material used to make the image is not anything like paint or pigment and the image only sits on the top two micro fibers of the cloths for the entire image. This is something a human artist would find hard to achieve.
Five reasons why the Shroud of Turin could be authentic - BizPac Review
 
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Nithavela

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A poe is a person (or post) that parodies stupidity (or fundamentalism, inane behaviour and so on) by trying to be as stupid as possible, but is still believed as being completely sincere in his stupidity. It is named by Nathan Poe, a user of this forum who coined it a few years ago.

Not saying that this is what you are, Stevevw, it is just what a poe is.
 
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stevevw

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A poe is a person (or post) that parodies stupidity (or fundamentalism, inane behaviour and so on) by trying to be as stupid as possible, but is still believed as being completely sincere in his stupidity. It is named by Nathan Poe, a user of this forum who coined it a few years ago.

Not saying that this is what you are, Stevevw, it is just what a poe is.
Ok I understand. I hope I am not seen as that though it wouldn't bother me to much from what others would think from hardly knowing me. I would hope to think that I am a little more smarter than that. I notice that you place stupidity and fundamentalism in the same meaning. I dont think that is the case as fundamental concepts can be logical and smart. I would imagine if you are applying it to religion then yes some can believe a fundamental view point despite all the evidence to the point where it is illogical and well like you say stupid. But are they being sincere or dishonest or just dogmatic is something to consider.

All Christians will believe in something that wont have evidence and this is where they say that faith steps in. But they will be aware that what they are believing goes beyond scientific evidence and will still live rationally in all other areas of their life.
 
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AV1611VET

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A poe is a person (or post) that parodies stupidity (or fundamentalism, inane behaviour and so on) by trying to be as stupid as possible,
A poe is an inability to ascertain if Statement A is being conveyed in sincerety by Person A, because Person A did not append Statement A with a smiley.

Example:

  1. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine.
  2. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine. ;)
 
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Nithavela

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Ok I understand. I hope I am not seen as that though it wouldn't bother me to much from what others would think from hardly knowing me. I would hope to think that I am a little more smarter than that. I notice that you place stupidity and fundamentalism in the same meaning. I dont think that is the case as fundamental concepts can be logical and smart. I would imagine if you are applying it to religion then yes some can believe a fundamental view point despite all the evidence to the point where it is illogical and well like you say stupid. But are they being sincere or dishonest or just dogmatic is something to consider.

All Christians will believe in something that wont have evidence and this is where they say that faith steps in. But they will be aware that what they are believing goes beyond scientific evidence and will still live rationally in all other areas of their life.

Not saying that fundamentalism is always stupid. But fundamentalism can be parodied, and that parody can be misunderstood as sincere, and thusly generate a poe. :)

It applies to anything, really. Even atheism.
 
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TLK Valentine

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A poe is an inability to ascertain if Statement A is being conveyed in sincerety by Person A, because Person A did not append Statement A with a smiley.

Example:

  1. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine.
  2. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine. ;)

because in the case of the above example, it's plausible enough that a person would genuinely believe that Noah's ark was, indeed, a submarine.
 
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Heissonear

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Two things.

First, here's what faith looks like:
The Bible tells me to pray, so I pray. The Bible tells me that supplication should be part of my prayers, so I ask God to help me with my circumstances. The Bible tells me that God performs miracles, based on God's own will, His timing, His reasons. So I pray for miracles. When I see miracles, I thank God. When I don't see miracles I thank God. If I'm doing it right, my thankfulness to God is no different when I see miracles than when I don't see miracles. If I pray for a miracle to save my dying father, and my father lives against all odds, I praise God. If I pray but my father still dies, I still praise God.

What I read a lot in this thread is not faith, but religiosity: A highly unlikely event happens, and it happens to be related to a church, and it happens to have a positive outcome, and I see a miracle. But wait, not only do I see a miracle, I demand that you see a miracle, too. But hold on, I don't just demand that you see a miracle. If you don't see a miracle, that tells me a lot about you. You must not believe in God. As a matter of fact, your failure to see the miracle that I see tells me that you don't just disbelieve God, you have a detailed agenda to undermine God and all His people. As a matter of fact... it goes on and on, and some time along in there we must assume that the religious person prayed to God and told Him that he saw a miracle and that he appreciates it.

We believe in a God who created everything out of nothing. He created all the physical laws, even time itself. So in His world, where He lives, everything would appear to us as impossible. In fact, to us, God's ordinary, predictable, everyday creation is way more awesome than miracles. I'm looking at the vastness of the universe, from the unimaginably tiny to the unimaginably huge, the symphony of the laws of nature, the complexity of the simplest of beauties, people, everything. It just blows my mind. But if I see a little glitch in all that, a miracle, it's more like, ok, that's what I would expect from God. Not all this wondrous order and predictability.

Second thing, God gives me a brain and He expects me to use it. And so I can comprehend very large numbers and statistics, and I know that the universe is not made out of blacks and whites, it is made out of probabilities. And I know that given enough events, I would be surprised not to see highly unlikely events happen.

Therefore, for a great many highly unlikely events, I can't really tell you whether it was a miracle or just the expected rare occurrence of the highly unlikely. And it doesn't really matter to anyone but me and God, anyway.

God's relationship to His people is personal. I'll try and discern miracles from expected rare occurrences, and the Holy Spirit will guide me in this discernment. But in the end it really doesn't matter. It's either God's astonishingly amazing creation firing off an extraordinarily rare event, or it's God bending his own laws to make a miracle. Either way I just praise God.

I don't understand what the big brouhaha's about.
.

Fully agree, brother. All that God does is Wondrous!

Unbelief is a power that blinds people to Him and His works.

Those who have forsaken Him and develop a life of living from the Tree of Knowledge has made "faith" go away in their lives. If they cannot figure it out and have firsthand evidence then they deem such does not exist. It is a circle of unbelief, and they wind up without Him in life.

.
 
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Heissonear

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What spiritual realm, Heiss?

.

That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that born of Spirit is spirit.

Unless one is born again through the Spirit of God they cannot SEE the Kingdom of God in our midst.

When you say what Spiritual realm you bear witness of what is born of flesh, and the Spiritual you cannot apprehend firsthand.

.
 
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Heissonear

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Who says anyone has ever heard and has been taught from Him on high?
.

That is an easy one to answer. Everyone who have been Baptized by His Spirit.


Acts 1:5 "John baptized you with water, but you shall be Baptized with the Holy Spirit"

John 10:27. "My sheep hear my voice"

John 6:45. "And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has has heard and learned of the Father comes to Me"

Romans 8:14. "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God these are sons of God"

I John 2:20,27. "You have an Anointing from the Holy One. ....... His Anointing teaches you about all things"


Read and ignore or read and weep for your missing Him to this point in your life.

.
 
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theophilus777

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A poe is an inability to ascertain if Statement A is being conveyed in sincerety by Person A, because Person A did not append Statement A with a smiley.

Example:

  1. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine.
  2. I think Noah's Ark was a submarine. ;)

Exactly. Atheists can't even get that right, and yet they still want to tout their own superiority? Bah. Good for a laugh though. If they need to take themselves so seriously that they die of a heart attack, I suppose its a free Country.
 
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