How are we to explain these "miracles?"

[Heissonear]

IF you take the Bible literally...
THEN these things you now complain about should not matter.

There are many more verses in which it is promised that if you pray what you pray for shall be granted to you. Now, this little experiment isn't even praying for yourself. It's praying for a worthy person other than yourself to receive a "miracle".

Why are you now throwing around terms like "witchcraft" and such? There is no such thing as magic.

So why will a limb not regrow if you pray for it earnestly and in great numbers? This should be an everyday occurrence and proof of God's existence. Should it not?

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I mentioned that I have witnessed a child's deformed limb become normal spontaneously through Him on High and now you want to "play with it". Chap, that's called defilement, pure and simple. Take something from Him and defile it.

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[Nithavela]

Proof of a miracle is living right up the road from me...
When she was a young teen,she started to experience severe headaches.
She went through an MRI(or the equivalent) and a tumor the size of a baseball was found in the very center of her brain.
It kept growing over the next month..she was terminal.
She got put on a prayer list and the headaches disappeared.
Went back to the same doctor,and he was dumbfounded.Not only had the tumor gone into remission,it had completely disappeared.The doctor could not explain why it had gone away and had so fast.Medically impossible with the limited amount of treatments she had received.
He was saved that very day.
She has never had it to come back and is now an active lady over 40 years old.
THAT is the power of prayer..
I don't have empirical proof of this happening,but it did.
I have no need or desire to lie about what happened..

This stuff happens, yes. Very rarely, and no one really knows, why. It is quite marvelous.

Funny thing, though, it happens to people who are non-christian with the same (low) likelyhood as it does happen to christians.

 

[Heissonear]

This stuff happens, yes. Very rarely, and no one really knows, why. It is quite marvelous.

Funny thing, though, it happens to people who are non-christian with the same (low) likelyhood as it does happen to christians.

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Some true miracles are easier for those in unbelief to write off in various ways, but when a child's deformed arm grows over a few seconds time period to become whole and normal what do you suppose happened? What had to happen?

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[Heissonear]

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Unbelief makes people say and do foolish things.

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[Paulos23]

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I mentioned that I have witnessed a child's deformed limb become normal spontaneously through Him on High and now you want to "play with it". Chap, that's called defilement, pure and simple. Take something from Him and defile it.

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Phill does have a point, if God is going around and healing limbs it should be more frequent and well documented. It would be a vivable healing method, even if it is a method of last resort.

 

[Paulos23]

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Unbelief makes people say and do foolish things.

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So does belief.

 

[Dizredux]

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Unbelief makes people say and do foolish things.

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And unfortunately, belief can do the same.

Dizredux

 

[PsychoSarah]

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Sarah, with all respect, neither of what you have mentioned is true. The reasons are many, but one is the One on High does things His Way and in His Timing and Reasons. For this reason I follow and do not lead. This is how my relationship with Him started and the way it should be. His Ways are far above our ways. Just a little.

As far as "evidence" or "record", its upon human hearts! As humans we seem to want physical evidence as "tangible evidence". This is backwards. The Spiritual Power is the substance and tangible evidence, not the lingering changes the physical realm may present. This may need further thought to grasp fully.

For example, the "physical record" does not mean much comparative to what Spiritual Dynamics that factually occurred. He did something over the natural, a demonstration that is above the natural, and a glimpse of how He is and can do. The little arm was "touched", "changed" by Him. Who He is is wondrous!

So how can a mere man mimic Him? Or "help Him out"? What through time and experience happened is He has made me a witness of Him and His Power. Otherwise, I am the same as anyone and everyone else, a person like you in this life. Everyone who seeks Him finds Him. There lies the difference. Like many before me and in our day, I am a follower of Jesus Christ, in truth.

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You claim you have seen miracles, what is so wrong of me to ask for evidence of your experiences? If you can prove it happened, I would be converted right on the spot, one more soul saved, but you are fine with just making empty claims and insulting nonbelievers when you potentially have the ability to make believers out of us by showing us evidence of a real miracle.

 

[Nithavela]

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Some true miracles are easier for those in unbelief to write off in various ways, but when a child's deformed arm grows over a few seconds time period to become whole and normal what do you suppose happened? What had to happen?

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Why would you assume that I believe any word you type about this thing?

I believe that you are telling a bald faced lie, and until provided any substantiation of your story, I will stick to that.

I have asked you multiple times for any kind of evidence for your tall tales, and all I was given were deflections and questions how I could question your gods existence while observing such happenings.

And yes, I also believe that your story of a man being shot and rising from his own blood unharmed is a lie.

 

[freezerman2000]

I heared an almost identical story a couple weeks ago. Spicy detail: it concerned islam.

And in labs around the world, rats with cancer go into remission as well. Without praying. Is your god saving labrats?

And what about all the people with cancer that have people praying for them that DON'T heal? That DIE in the most cruel ways you can imagine?
What about those?

Your anecdote is not impressive, even if true.

Remission with experimental drugs..Nobody prays for those critters,do you?

That question,I can not answer

Is something that really happened an anecdote?
Maybe it's not impressive to you,but to her family and those whose lives she touches everyday,it sure is impressive..go mock someone else's healing,she does not deserve it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Phill does have a point, if God is going around and healing limbs it should be more frequent and well documented. It would be a vivable healing method, even if it is a method of last resort.

Furthermore, it doesn't say anyhting flattering about His character when you consider all the millions of limbs He doesn't heal. Why do they all get ignored?

 

[freezerman2000]

Now... I'm sure this is what you BELIEVE happened. The number of holes in this story are many. There is no evidence at all that it was prayer that mattered. In fact, in a recent study that ended after 10 years prayer was found to be less than useless.

So while you're certain you've made connections without evidence to do so.

Not a story..it happened.She was terminal one week,the next she the cancer was gone.In that week,the prayer circle encompassed more than 30 good size Churches(this was before the Internet).What would you attribute her swift healing to?
Were those who prayed for those patients sincere in those prayers or was it like an after thought?Going through the motions is not prayer,it is a waste of time.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Were those who prayed for those patients sincere in those prayers or was it like an after thought?Going through the motions is not prayer,it is a waste of time.

I'm sure the prayers of the patients themselves were pretty sincere...

 

[Neogaia777]

I have personally experienced miraculous happenings with myself in my own personal life,

Well, I don't know if this will help or not, and I'm not going to go into long drawn out details but I personally have been shown over and over and over again, many, many signs and wonders and portents in my environment and through the forces of the environment (nature) and through animals and people, and have had so, so very, very many strange set of series of multiple upon multiple coincidences, that were just to coincidental and happened to many times to be just mere coincidence...

I have personally been shown many things, most of which was so much I can't even remember them all, (all the specifics) But I had an all the sudden lightning and powerful windstorm blow in from out of no where in the space of about two minutes after just getting done praying on a park bench, I've spoke to the rain twice and it either started coming down a lot, lot harder immediately afterward, or in one case stopped immediately after my speaking/praying, and many, many other strange things happened to me that at first I tried to deny and say to myself "that's ridiculous" or "that's absurd, that's impossible" But after so, so many, many times I came to believe it and had to admit to myself most definitely for assuredity, I have seen and experienced the proof of God, I finally had to admit it to myself after many, many personal revelations.

I also heard voices, and have had some very strange dreams along with these coincidences along the way...

Well, just thought I'd share that, anyways I HAVE TO believe in God now, and I cannot take credit for my faith, nor judge those who have not experienced such things...

God Bless!

 

[DogmaHunter]

Remission with experimental drugs..Nobody prays for those critters,do you?

Who said anything about drugs? Experimental or otherwise?
I'm talking about natural remissions. No treatment, no drugs. Just letting the cancer do its thing. Most of the time, it kills the rats.
On some occasions, the rats go into natural remission. Just like humans do on some occasions.

Just because you spoke to yourself (I'm sorry, "prayed") about a person doesn't mean this prayer triggered a remission or triggered some unsupported deity to use magic to make the tumor dissappear.

Natural remissions do happen. In humans and non-humans. With or without prayer.

So assuming you agree that your diety of choice won't bother to reach into the DNA of a labrat that nobody is praying for to cure it from its cancer, this means that you accept that natural remissions of cancer do occur.

Now for the million dollar question:
How do you tell the difference between a natural remission and a supernatural cure?

That question,I can not answer

You can't answer the question about why labrats go into remission, but somehow, you are able to answer the question about why humans go into remission? How does this make sense?

Is something that really happened an anecdote?

Anecdotal: based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

It's an anecdote because it's unverifiable. It's undocument. There's no systematic evaluation of the story or the claimed events. You expect us to take your word for it. But you could be wrong. You could have falsely interpreted what happened. The person with cancer could have been lying oabout having cancer. The original diagnose could have been wrong, perhaps she never had cancer. You could be lying about the whole thing.

See, this is the problem with anecdotal stuff. We are expected to "just believe you". Take your word for it. Accept it at face value.

I have no problem "just believing you" for rather mundane claims... like for example if you would have an anecdote saying

"I went to McDonalds yesterday and had a burger. There were 3 people in front of me and one of them had a small dog. After eating the burger I went home and watched a movie".

McDonalds exists. People frequent it. It sells burgers. People keep dogs. People watch movies.

There's nothing there raising any kind of red flag.

Now, if you would add the following to this anecdote:
"I noticed in McDonalds that I forgot my wallet. I prayed to my god of choice for some money and His glorious self then turned the dog into solid gold. I broke of one of the ears and used it to pay my burger".

Now, LOTS of red flags are coming up.
Now, your anecdote is no longer something I can just accept at face value.

See?

Maybe it's not impressive to you,but to her family and those whose lives she touches everyday,it sure is impressive..go mock someone else's healing,she does not deserve it.

I'm not mocking her healing. I'm glad she went into remission (if the story is true). What I'm mocking is all the rest you are adding to it.

And you didn't address the 2 most important parts of my post:
1. what about all the people being prayed for that die a horrible death instead of being "healed"?
2. what about all the very similar anecdotes, told by followers of rivalling religions in support of their religion?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I have personally experienced miraculous happenings with myself in my own personal life,

Well, I don't know if this will help or not, and I'm not going to go into long drawn out details but I personally have been shown over and over and over again, many, many signs and wonders and portents in my environment and through the forces of the environment (nature) and through animals and people, and have had so, so very, very many strange set of series of multiple upon multiple coincidences, that were just to coincidental and happened to many times to be just mere coincidence...

I have personally been shown many things, most of which was so much I can't even remember them all, (all the specifics) But I had an all the sudden lightning and powerful windstorm blow in from out of no where in the space of about two minutes after just getting done praying on a park bench, I've spoke to the rain twice and it either started coming down a lot, lot harder immediately afterward, or in one case stopped immediately after my speaking/praying, and many, many other strange things happened to me that at first I tried to deny and say to myself "that's ridiculous" or "that's absurd, that's impossible" But after so, so many, many times I came to believe it and had to admit to myself most definitely for assuredity, I have seen and experienced the proof of God, I finally had to admit it to myself after many, many personal revelations.

I also heard voices, and have had some very strange dreams along with these coincidences along the way...

Well, just thought I'd share that, anyways I HAVE TO believe in God now, and I cannot take credit for my faith, nor judge those who have not experienced such things...

God Bless!

It sounds like you have symtoms of psychosis.
The magical thinking, the association and linking of random seperate events, the building of stories using random disconnected ingredients, the hearing of voices,...

I'm not joking.

 

[freezerman2000]

Who said anything about drugs? Experimental or otherwise?
I'm talking about natural remissions. No treatment, no drugs. Just letting the cancer do its thing. Most of the time, it kills the rats.
On some occasions, the rats go into natural remission. Just like humans do on some occasions.

Just because you spoke to yourself (I'm sorry, "prayed") about a person doesn't mean this prayer triggered a remission or triggered some unsupported deity to use magic to make the tumor dissappear.

Natural remissions do happen. In humans and non-humans. With or without prayer.

So assuming you agree that your diety of choice won't bother to reach into the DNA of a labrat that nobody is praying for to cure it from its cancer, this means that you accept that natural remissions of cancer do occur.

Now for the million dollar question:
How do you tell the difference between a natural remission and a supernatural cure?



You can't answer the question about why labrats go into remission, but somehow, you are able to answer the question about why humans go into remission? How does this make sense?



Anecdotal: based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

It's an anecdote because it's unverifiable. It's undocument. There's no systematic evaluation of the story or the claimed events. You expect us to take your word for it. But you could be wrong. You could have falsely interpreted what happened. The person with cancer could have been lying oabout having cancer. The original diagnose could have been wrong, perhaps she never had cancer. You could be lying about the whole thing.

See, this is the problem with anecdotal stuff. We are expected to "just believe you". Take your word for it. Accept it at face value.

I have no problem "just believing you" for rather mundane claims... like for example if you would have an anecdote saying

"I went to McDonalds yesterday and had a burger. There were 3 people in front of me and one of them had a small dog. After eating the burger I went home and watched a movie".

McDonalds exists. People frequent it. It sells burgers. People keep dogs. People watch movies.

There's nothing there raising any kind of red flag.

Now, if you would add the following to this anecdote:
"I noticed in McDonalds that I forgot my wallet. I prayed to my god of choice for some money and His glorious self then turned the dog into solid gold. I broke of one of the ears and used it to pay my burger".

Now, LOTS of red flags are coming up.
Now, your anecdote is no longer something I can just accept at face value.

See?



I'm not mocking her healing. I'm glad she went into remission (if the story is true). What I'm mocking is all the rest you are adding to it.

And you didn't address the 2 most important parts of my post:
1. what about all the people being prayed for that die a horrible death instead of being "healed"?
2. what about all the very similar anecdotes, told by followers of rivalling religions in support of their religion?

Why would lab rats exist BUT to do medical testing on them?Hence the experimental drugs
I'll get further into this when I get back home from work..

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why would lab rats exist BUT to do medical testing on them?Hence the experimental drugs

First, there is something in labs that we call a "control group". This group doesn't get any medication. It is used to compare the progress of the desease without meds as opposed to the progress of the desease WITH the meds.

Second, when studying the development of a certain desease, one doesn't treat it. Because treating it stops its development.

You should inform yourself a bit on how lab experiments work in the medical world.


Even in clinical trials with humans, one group will get a placebo instead of the actual meds being tested. Giving a placebo is the same as giving a glass of water.

 

[PsychoSarah]

First, there is something in labs that we call a "control group". This group doesn't get any medication. It is used to compare the progress of the desease without meds as opposed to the progress of the desease WITH the meds.

Second, when studying the development of a certain desease, one doesn't treat it. Because treating it stops its development.

You should inform yourself a bit on how lab experiments work in the medical world.


Even in clinical trials with humans, one group will get a placebo instead of the actual meds being tested. Giving a placebo is the same as giving a glass of water.

Well, not exactly, the placebo effect does do a little bit, but it does make for a good control group nonetheless.

 

[Heissonear]

It scentered. like you have symtoms of psychosis.
The magical thinking, the association and linking of random seperate events, the building of stories using random disconnected ingredients, the hearing of voices,...

I'm not joking.

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What do atheists know about miracles and the manifestation of Power from on High?

All atheists can do is associate such to what they already know, that which is worldly and man-centered.

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