How are we to explain these "miracles?"

Heissonear said:

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Interesting. Why do you turn the subject to be about me?

Those who witnesses things like these do not think about a person but the substance that caused what happened before them.

Can you marvel at what has to take place for a deformed childs limb to grow into whole form? It's about how the physical and natural is controlled and changed. What takes place when this spontaneously happens?

Does the Bible talk about Signs and Wonders? Do you realize what witnessing one of these causes in those who seen them?

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Signs and wonders are meaningless. Deuteronomy 13 indicates that signs and wonders can be a test. If the one doing them encourages people to disobedience to God, that prophet is a liar. The punishment for that in the Torah is death.

Steve Petersen said:

Signs and wonders are meaningless. Deuteronomy 13 indicates that signs and wonders can be a test. If the one doing them encourages people to disobedience to God, that prophet is a liar. The punishment for that in the Torah is death.

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I can't think of anyone who is required to adhere to the Torah.

Heissonear said:

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1. You have never seen a deformed limb of a baby become whole and normal before your eyes.

2. You have never seen someone shot in the chest by a high power rifle and fall to the ground in blood only to raise with no evidence of being shot.

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God has given many visions.

Steve Petersen said:

Signs and wonders are meaningless. Deuteronomy 13 indicates that signs and wonders can be a test. If the one doing them encourages people to disobedience to God, that prophet is a liar. The punishment for that in the Torah is death.

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An expert! You are now turning the focus to dogma. You mean the focus is not a display of Power above the natural?

Do you realize the amount of unbelief manifested on this OP and forum about the existence of the Spiritual Realm and its Dynamics? Do you see the Spiritual Realm barrenness in so many when they say "it does not exist"? "Evidence please"!


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Do you have evidence of these things happening, Heissonear? If someone gets shot and survives without any traces, while leaving behind a puddle of blood, it should at least make local news.

Nithavela said:

Do you have evidence of these things happening, Heissonear? If someone gets shot and survives without any traces, while leaving behind a puddle of blood, it should at least make local news.

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In His intervention work, it appears God uses very select circumstances when He shows His Power. The two Spiritual events I witnessed were no different: He was working over many days in many different ways before and after these miracles came about. In the physical and Spiritual Realms the miracles did not haphazardly happen.

It appears that for miraculous events He has a small selection of who "gets in on it" firsthand, and that the purpose of these Divine experiences are not "for the masses".

If God wanted to show unbelievers that He exists then He would do so in no uncertain terms, in an open and purposed way.

To me for worldly people to come to the scene after the event has no real Spiritual significance; though most unbelievers have a quest to find physical evidence that the Spiritual Realm and Powers are real.

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Heissonear said:

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In His intervention work, it appears God uses very select circumstances when He shows His Power. The two Spiritual events I witnessed were no different: He was working over many days in many different ways before and after these miracles came about. In the physical and Spiritual Realms the miracles did not haphazardly happen.

It appears that for miraculous events He has a small selection of who "gets in on it" firsthand, and that the purpose of these Divine experiences are not "for the masses".

If God wanted to show unbelievers that He exists then He would do so in no uncertain terms, in an open and purposed way.

To me for worldly people to come to the scene after the event has no real Spiritual significance; though most unbelievers have a quest to find physical evidence that the Spiritual Realm and Powers are real.

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I don't doubt your sincerity. I think you honestly believe your experiences to have spiritual significance in context of your religion.

Here's what I wonder about... How do you propose that I differentiate between your experiences with, what I presume to be, the holy ghost / christ / christian god with the sincere experiences of muslims with allah?
Hindu's with hindu things?
UFO believers with alien abduction?
etc

I guarantee that all of your believe very sincerely and very honestly that your experiences are related to the religions you adhere to.

Logically, at most only one of you (= groups of different religions) can be correct. The rest will necessarily be wrong. Either they misinterpreted events or they are simply mistaken about the cause.

Another option is that all of you are wrong. Which is the option I find most likely.

So I'm asking you, how do you propose that I differentiate between you?
What methodology do you propose for me to investigate this and find out who is correct and who is wrong?

SkyWriting said:

God has given many visions.

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So has schizophrenia

DogmaHunter said:

I don't doubt your sincerity. I think you honestly believe your experiences to have spiritual significance in context of your religion.

Here's what I wonder about... How do you propose that I differentiate between your experiences with, what I presume to be, the holy ghost / christ / christian god with the sincere experiences of muslims with allah?
Hindu's with hindu things?
UFO believers with alien abduction?
etc

I guarantee that all of your believe very sincerely and very honestly that your experiences are related to the religions you adhere to.

Logically, at most only one of you (= groups of different religions) can be correct. The rest will necessarily be wrong. Either they misinterpreted events or they are simply mistaken about the cause.

Another option is that all of you are wrong. Which is the option I find most likely.

So I'm asking you, how do you propose that I differentiate between you?
What methodology do you propose for me to investigate this and find out who is correct and who is wrong?

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Dogma,
Very appropriate questions. In times past I too took careful steps towards what is real, and not to what is imaginary or delusional. You have summarized how delusion can and does take over people, since each "group" cannot be right.

Since I have little time to reply at the moment, I will present the following:

"The Kingdom of God does not consist of words but of power." I Corinthians 4:20

The Bible is a mere book, and Christianity a mere religion IF there is no substance and power and truth as it's foundation. If what it presents does not exist in Power than it would be a man made religion.

Jesus, and the Kingdom He preached of I have found, even in Power.

I have found Him, and have been maturing in His Kingdom. All founded upon Power, not man made words. And His Kingdom is in our midst every moment.

I have been open to other "groups" all along, to learn the difference, but not naively or without careful discernment/examination.

But to Naturalism and Scientism, from which I originally came from, these are in error, blind to the Higher Power and Spiritual Dynamics that exists in our midst, even Eternal Beings. Naturalists, in dealing with only the natural, present half-truths. They have no explication nor awareness of God and His Kingdom in our midst. They are ignorant to the Powers on High, and how the Heavens Rule the natural realm. Besides God's Word, I have witnessed miracles that attest to the blindness Naturalists have.


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Those miracles being what exactly?

DogmaHunter said:

I don't doubt your sincerity. I think you honestly believe your experiences to have spiritual significance in context of your religion.

Here's what I wonder about... How do you propose that I differentiate between your experiences with, what I presume to be, the holy ghost / christ / christian god with the sincere experiences of muslims with allah?

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Why would I even try to differentiate between them, or doubt them in the first place? Nobody 'owns' God, just their own "religion'. I'm sure God is present in the experiences of many others, even others of different faiths.

Heissonear said:

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You speak as an expert about a matter that you cannot apprehend.

Your Spiritual Realm ignorance you cannot overcome.

You can only speak in relation to the realm of the natural.

What do you know about miracles from God? You show "nothing". Only unbelief.

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How is my spiritual realm ignorance any worse than your leprechaun realm ignorance?

Loudmouth said:

How is my spiritual realm ignorance any worse than your leprechaun realm ignorance?

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What do you know about miracles?

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Heissonear said:

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What do you know about miracles?

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What do you?

Heissonear said:

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In His intervention work, it appears God uses very select circumstances when He shows His Power. The two Spiritual events I witnessed were no different: He was working over many days in many different ways before and after these miracles came about. In the physical and Spiritual Realms the miracles did not haphazardly happen.

It appears that for miraculous events He has a small selection of who "gets in on it" firsthand, and that the purpose of these Divine experiences are not "for the masses".

If God wanted to show unbelievers that He exists then He would do so in no uncertain terms, in an open and purposed way.

To me for worldly people to come to the scene after the event has no real Spiritual significance; though most unbelievers have a quest to find physical evidence that the Spiritual Realm and Powers are real.

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Could you please rephrase that into a straight answer?

First, you wrote that a person was shot and rose from a puddle of his own blood, unharmed. And now you state that there were several days of marvelous happenings surrounding this.

Which is it? Did a man rise from his own blood unharmed, or was it something metaphysical and 'spiritual'?

I'm not trying to force you into a false set of choices, if it was something else, I'd be happy to listen, but please stop these evasions, or they will just make you seem weak and flimsy. Or do you just talk the witnesses talk and not walk the walk, hmm?

SkyWriting said:

I can't think of anyone who is required to adhere to the Torah.

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You have never heard of Jews?

Nithavela said:

Could you please rephrase that into a straight answer?

First, you wrote that a person was shot and rose from a puddle of his own blood, unharmed. And now you state that there were several days of marvelous happenings surrounding this.

Which is it? Did a man rise from his own blood unharmed, or was it something metaphysical and 'spiritual'?

I'm not trying to force you into a false set of choices, if it was something else, I'd be happy to listen, but please stop these evasions, or they will just make you seem weak and flimsy. Or do you just talk the witnesses talk and not walk the walk, hmm?

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You are confusing yourself. Go read again what I said in the previous posts. Nothing changed.

What were these events? Who did what?

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Heissonear said:

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What do you know about miracles?

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Why are you blind to the Leprechaun realm?

Either you believe in the miracles (actually happened) or not, in new and OT, with Jesus, or you don't, but if you don't, I don't see how because either you think people made these things up (which is just ridiculous in my opinion) (why, what reason would so, so many, many different witnesses, (especially to the miracles Jesus performed) Are you teeling me "all" these common everyday people all "conspired" together to just "make these things" up, I tell you that line of reasoning is the one that is in the realm of impossibility...

Or perhaps you want to think there magic tricks, then tell me has any magician that you know of ever made the blind see, or cured leperousy, along with the many, many other sicknesses and diseases he cured, or raised anyone from the dead,, or cured paralysis with just a word (wait, that would be in the sickness and diseases category I already mentioned huh) or how about expelling demonic spirits, ever seen any magican or sharlitan do that, or what about Christ's foreknowledge and predictions (for example exactly where and when and in what place a donkey would be tied up that no one had sat upon that he (Jesus) instructed his disciples to go get, or exactly where and when Peter would cast out a fish hook and catch a fish that just happened to have a coin to pay the taxes with in its mouth), and there are others, but I'm not going to mention them all here...

In the very end of the book of John, it says a line as to roundabout how many times and how often, and how many miracles Jesus performed, so many, and so much that John said, "I suppose if all the things Jesus did (performed) were written down in their entirety then I suppose the whole world could not contain the scrolls written."

Most of who still deny these things do so because they go beyond the realm of what we believe to possible, or logical, because these things defy logic and reason, so we try to make up things (excuses) to deny it, because it just so, so very "unbelievable" to us that our minds automatically, say, "that's impossible, you expect me to believe that, that's just not possible" and then these people then try to find (what seem to them, but are actually made up) "logical" and "reasonable" ways to deny it, but it both defies logic and is undeniable in my opinion, and one will never, ever be able to "explain away" these miracles, other than one finally admitting, "It is the power of God" and that's it, end of story...

God Bless all!

Neogaia777 said:

Either you believe in the miracles (actually happened) or not, in new and OT, with Jesus, or you don't, but if you don't, I don't see how because either you think people made these things up (which is just ridiculous in my opinion) (why, what reason would so, so many, many different witnesses, (especially to the miracles Jesus performed) Are you teeling me "all" these common everyday people all "conspired" together to just "make these things" up, I tell you that line of reasoning is the one that is in the realm of impossibility...

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Do you apply the same logic to other religions and historical texts? Do you accept the miracles performed by the Greek and Roman heroes that were aided by their gods? What about the Labors of Hercules aided by the gods Athena and Hermes? Surely you you don't think those were just made up, do you?

The Labors of Hercules