How are we supposed to worship? Does contemporary worship offend God?

[Sheep4Christ]

2nd Chronicles 29:30
Moreover King Hezekiah and the leaders commanded the Levite's to sing *praise* to the Lord with the words of David and Asaph the seer.So they *sang* praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and *worshipped*. We do both during the praise and worship part of the service.At my church.

 

[Sheep4Christ]

I have visited Churches where they didn't have music just prayer and a short sermon.I find that I enjoy music better in church.I like to express my joy and love for the Lord in music. That's just who I am.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi. Well we have to hear the sermon. We can't just sing all day. It's not a partial praise to the Living God. Hearing His word from scripture is also a part of worshipping and praising Him for all His goodness and grace. And scripture is also His instructions to us Christians as well as a reassurance and reminder of His power.So it all fits together .At least in my humble belief.

You said, "during the praise and worship portion of the service. . . That prompted my reply.

 

[Sheep4Christ]

You said, "during the praise and worship portion of the service. . . That prompted my reply.

You said, "during the praise and worship portion of the service. . . That prompted my reply.

Hi Jimmy...okay.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've also seen people jumping and dancing in church during the praise and worship part of the service..and since I'm one of the musicians I think this is a great way to express your feelings for the Lord. David twirled and danced in the sight of God and the Israelites when they brought the ark of the covenant to Jerusalem.Sometimes I'm overcome in worship while I'm playing and have to pause to give my praise. Usually I weep.Or when someone else is playing the keyboard I might dance or stomp my feet.At times like this I find that I can't sit still.

But would David have danced in his underpants in the Temple?

When we come before the Holy of Holies the proper attitude is fear, and our joy comes from the mercy and kindness of God in Christ, who comes to us through Word and Sacrament, that we may know God as He wants to be known.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sheep4Christ]

But would David have danced in his underpants in the Temple?

When we come before the Holy of Holies the proper attitude is fear, and our joy comes from the mercy and kindness of God in Christ, who comes to us through Word and Sacrament, that we may know God as He wants to be known.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi. Of course David would not have disrespected the temple like that.What person in their right minds would come to church in their underware? Are you suggesting that how we worship and praise at my church isn't proper?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi. Of course David would not have disrespected the temple like that.What person in their right minds would come to church in their underware? Are you suggesting that how we worship and praise at my church isn't proper?

Your argument for jumping around in church is based on something that didn't happen in the temple, is it not?

 

[Sheep4Christ]

Your argument for jumping around in church is based on something that didn't happen in the temple, is it not?

Hi. Well I made no argument for anything. I was simply sharing what I liked and how we do it at my church. And I included scriptures so people could understand why I don't feel condemned worshipping and praising as I do.But if you have a problem with how I express my worship then I can respect that.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi. Of course David would not have disrespected the temple like that.What person in their right minds would come to church in their underware?

Keep in mind that when David danced before the Lord he was wearing what was, in essence, an ancient middle eastern equivalent to undergarments. And while God did not condemn David for celebrating as he did in response to the victory and return of the Ark; you admit even still that it would be inappropriate in church.

And that would be my point. When we come together as the people of God, gathered around Christ's Word and Sacrament, this is sacred and holy, because we are standing before Christ-God Himself. I realize that this won't be the position of you or your church if you do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but for those of us who do, we are standing before the very and actual Son of God, Jesus Christ, in the flesh, present for us in and under the elements of the Altar. In times past only the high priest of Israel could be so near to God, but for us we have entered into the Holy of Holies by the mediated work and presence of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest. There can be nothing more sacred than this.

Worship should not be defined or determined by expressing our feelings to God, as though we are merely individuals doing individual things, this is only confusion as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14. Worship should be defined by our corporate work as God's people, it isn't about "me" before God, but rather my place within the worshiping community gathered around God's works.

Are you suggesting that how we worship and praise at my church isn't proper?

I would say that there was a time in my life, back when I was a Pentecostal and a member of the Foursquare denomination that I believed that worship was about expressing myself to God, and that "worship" chiefly constituted a certain portion of the service dedicated to singing and, even dancing, should one feel so moved emotionally. I would also say that in the years since then my understanding of worship has fundamentally changed slowly and gradually as I've come to understand the meaning of our sacred gathering together not as an opportunity to tell God how much we like Him, but as the meeting place of God, in Christ and the Spirit, in our midst; worship is ultimately for our benefit. God doesn't gain anything that He doesn't have already, but we are transformed and conformed, sustained and nourished by the life-giving Word of God and the Holy Sacraments. There is an interplay between the sacrificial and the sacramental.

I'm not going to tell you it isn't proper. But I do think it's worth asking yourself what would be proper when standing before Christ, enthroned in glory, in your midst. I'm not going to say dance is never an appropriate thing--but should it be an individual self expression? I think it's worth seriously thinking about this.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Sheep4Christ]

Keep in mind that when David danced before the Lord he was wearing what was, in essence, an ancient middle eastern equivalent to undergarments. And while God did not condemn David for celebrating as he did in response to the victory and return of the Ark; you admit even still that it would be inappropriate in church.

And that would be my point. When we come together as the people of God, gathered around Christ's Word and Sacrament, this is sacred and holy, because we are standing before Christ-God Himself. I realize that this won't be the position of you or your church if you do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but for those of us who do, we are standing before the very and actual Son of God, Jesus Christ, in the flesh, present for us in and under the elements of the Altar. In times past only the high priest of Israel could be so near to God, but for us we have entered into the Holy of Holies by the mediated work and presence of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest. There can be nothing more sacred than this.

Worship should not be defined or determined by expressing our feelings to God, as though we are merely individuals doing individual things, this is only confusion as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14. Worship should be defined by our corporate work as God's people, it isn't about "me" before God, but rather my place within the worshiping community gathered around God's works.



I would say that there was a time in my life, back when I was a Pentecostal and a member of the Foursquare denomination that I believed that worship was about expressing myself to God, and that "worship" chiefly constituted a certain portion of the service dedicated to singing and, even dancing, should one feel so moved emotionally. I would also say that in the years since then my understanding of worship has fundamentally changed slowly and gradually as I've come to understand the meaning of our sacred gathering together not as an opportunity to tell God how much we like Him, but as the meeting place of God, in Christ and the Spirit, in our midst; worship is ultimately for our benefit. God doesn't gain anything that He doesn't have already, but we are transformed and conformed, sustained and nourished by the life-giving Word of God and the Holy Sacraments. There is an interplay between the sacrificial and the sacramental.

I'm not going to tell you it isn't proper. But I do think it's worth asking yourself what would be proper when standing before Christ, enthroned in glory, in your midst. I'm not going to say dance is never an appropriate thing--but should it be an individual self expression? I think it's worth seriously thinking about this.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi. I understand what you're saying . Thanks.

 

[Daniel Quartararo]

I would say this: Have great communication with God and discernment and know your Bible well! There are a LOT of popular songs played in churches all over that sound good (with catchy lyrics) that are not scriptural. Ask Jesus to bring you to artists that are truly in relationship with Him and using their discernment in both writing their songs and lyrics!

God bless you, in Jesus' mighty name!

Join us:

YouTube (NEW!)
Daniel Quartararo

What Do You End Up With? (Group)
What Do You End Up With? public group | Facebook

Proofs of God, Christ, and the Bible (Page)
Proofs of God, Christ, and the Bible | Facebook

Life Giving Sermons (Page)
Life Giving Sermons | Facebook

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Your argument for jumping around in church is based on something that didn't happen in the temple, is it not?

By the way, it is untrue that Ethiopian Orthodox dance during the actual liturgy, or in the altar, but this allegation as to what they do is oft-cited by Emergent Church liberals in the mainline churches for introducing "liturgical dance," which is something I believe to be entirely alien to the Christian worship traditions of the early Church and indeed ancient Judaism.

The alleged practices of the Ethiopians (which are actually extra-liturgical and do not involve the priests) along with the King David story are the dual canards employed in order to provide some form of scriptural and traditional justification for what is in fact an innovation.

 

[Episaw]

So here's the thing.

I love contemporary worship, modern Christan music from the likes of Chris Tomlin, Miachel W Smith, Hillsong and other such artists really draws me close to God.

The issue is I see a lot of these bands as very self centered and self pleasing and worship to God should be ALL about Him and not what I get pleasure or enjoyment out of.

When I read the Bible and look at how the Jews in particular worshiped then and today there's a huge difference.

Orthodox and more inward and reflective worship seems to be how Jews and the early Christian church worshipped.

What if anything does God say about this Biblically.

As much as I love contemporary worship, I'd rather worship in a way that is pleasing to God than is pleasing to me and I've really started to worry that I may not be doing the right thing.

Any advice/input in greatly appreciated.

For me, worship is a heart thing. In days of old when knights were bold if you were in battle and were defeated, you were taken captive and marched to the supreme commander and made to kneel before him. That meant you were surrendering yourself to him as the victor.

I see worship as something like that. I have always said singing songs is not worship. It is when we come and bow the knee to Jesus in full surrender. If we don't, we are not worshiping we are singing.

You can worship with Hillsong music and you can worship with psalms and songs that are not Hillsong.

I was around when James and Carol Owens from New Zealand introduced us to scripture in song. Scripture, much of it the Psalms put to music.

It was very easy to worship with these songs because it was about scripture and we were learning scripture as we sang.

I attended Planetshakers for a year and some of the "worship" was nothing more that entertainment and some of the "worship" was throne room stuff.

At the annual conference in Melbourne last year, Thursday night was an exceptional experience as we saw the truth of that verse that says he inhabits the praises of his people.

I along with many others felt the presence of God descend into the auditorium as we were worshiping and the power was quite palpable. You could feel it touching you.

It was the only night it happened so I guess there were a lot of people truly worshipping that night.

To sum up, worship is a heart condition. If you are not truly surrendered to the King of Kings, enjoy your singing but don't be surprised if nothing happens.

 

[rjs330]

Keep in mind that when David danced before the Lord he was wearing what was, in essence, an ancient middle eastern equivalent to undergarments. And while God did not condemn David for celebrating as he did in response to the victory and return of the Ark; you admit even still that it would be inappropriate in church.

And that would be my point. When we come together as the people of God, gathered around Christ's Word and Sacrament, this is sacred and holy, because we are standing before Christ-God Himself. I realize that this won't be the position of you or your church if you do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but for those of us who do, we are standing before the very and actual Son of God, Jesus Christ, in the flesh, present for us in and under the elements of the Altar. In times past only the high priest of Israel could be so near to God, but for us we have entered into the Holy of Holies by the mediated work and presence of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest. There can be nothing more sacred than this.

Worship should not be defined or determined by expressing our feelings to God, as though we are merely individuals doing individual things, this is only confusion as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14. Worship should be defined by our corporate work as God's people, it isn't about "me" before God, but rather my place within the worshiping community gathered around God's works.



I would say that there was a time in my life, back when I was a Pentecostal and a member of the Foursquare denomination that I believed that worship was about expressing myself to God, and that "worship" chiefly constituted a certain portion of the service dedicated to singing and, even dancing, should one feel so moved emotionally. I would also say that in the years since then my understanding of worship has fundamentally changed slowly and gradually as I've come to understand the meaning of our sacred gathering together not as an opportunity to tell God how much we like Him, but as the meeting place of God, in Christ and the Spirit, in our midst; worship is ultimately for our benefit. God doesn't gain anything that He doesn't have already, but we are transformed and conformed, sustained and nourished by the life-giving Word of God and the Holy Sacraments. There is an interplay between the sacrificial and the sacramental.

I'm not going to tell you it isn't proper. But I do think it's worth asking yourself what would be proper when standing before Christ, enthroned in glory, in your midst. I'm not going to say dance is never an appropriate thing--but should it be an individual self expression? I think it's worth seriously thinking about this.

-CryptoLutheran

I am not a dancer. But I do believe dancing, clapping in worship. In the temple there was trumpet playing clashing cymbals etc. And the people used David's Psalms which most likely would have included Psalms like shout to God with the voice of triumph and clap your hands all ye people etc.
So yes I do think worshipping God and the Lord Jesus Christ as the holy and almighty God using those forms are absolutely Biblical.

That being said the question is really what is your purpose for doing so? Are you trying to bring attention to yourself or are you truly worshipping? That is a matter for God to judge not me. The other thing is what Paul spoke of when it comes to order in the church and the principle of a stumbling block. It would be wrong for me to go to an Orthodox Church and start dancing around as it would be disruptive and out of order.

 

[Episaw]

When I see a thread like this it gets me thinking. Now some would say that is not a good thing. Better to just go with the flow and let God do the rest. but I can't help the thinking bit because I am autistic and those sort of people NEVER stop thinking.

Having said that quite often my thinking leads me straight to God and I get revelations I would never think of in a million years.

As I was thinking, I realized that "our worship" is usually a way in which we identify ourselves.

To be a true pentecostal church we have to sing loud and long with lots of musical accompaniment. (I think a lot of Pentecostals have this idea God is deaf)

To be a high Anglican we have to be all serious and somber and go through set rituals that are never deviated from. (I think) Similarly the Catholic Church.

To be a Baptist, well that is anyone's guess. The hymn-prayer sandwich, the gentle charismatic, the all-out enthusiastic, some music, lots of music. You name it they have got it.

The there is the pseudo pentecostal/charismatic that have all trappings of that form of worship but it is dead as a dodo because they haven't realized that music is a heart thing, not something you turn on and off at will.

Very few will embrace variety with pentecostal, charismatic, hymns, songs, Psalms, some music, no music, and old uncle Tom Cobley and all.

We are creatures of habit and we like the worship to be done a certain way because it suits us and satisfies the cravings of our personality (there are four types).

So one has to ask the question, is our worship really worship or a means whereby we are identified and satisfied.

Do we have meetings that go on for hours filled with worship because God is inhabiting the praises of his people?

The best meeting that I have ever been in lasted six hours from 6pm till midnight and most of it was worship. We could not not worship and we could not stop because the Holy Spirit had taken over and we were all under his power.

Because of the purity of the worship, NO ONE wanted to go home. (This was in a charismatic Brethren Church. Don't faint).

 

[LinkH]

By the way, it is untrue that Ethiopian Orthodox dance during the actual liturgy, or in the altar, but this allegation as to what they do is oft-cited by Emergent Church liberals in the mainline churches for introducing "liturgical dance," which is something I believe to be entirely alien to the Christian worship traditions of the early Church and indeed ancient Judaism.

Let's look at one example:

Is the dancing this psalm instructs the people to do 'liturgical' or not?
Psalm 149:3
1 Praise ye the Lord. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

If they sang this particular song, and then danced during it or at the part where it says to dance, would that be 'liturgical dance.'

I don't know of 'liturgical dance' in first century synagogue liturgy. But I am not expert on such things, so someone else may know. But if they used the Psalms in the temple along with instrumental music, they may have had dancing as well-- assuming they did what some of these Psalms instructed them to do while they were singing them.

I hear the synagogues had musical instruments until they removed them to mourn the destruction of the temple, and later added a Sabbath-related restriction (that a musician might be tempted to break the Sabbath by replacing a string.)

 

[NeedyFollower]

When I see a thread like this it gets me thinking. Now some would say that is not a good thing. Better to just go with the flow and let God do the rest. but I can't help the thinking bit because I am autistic and those sort of people NEVER stop thinking.

Having said that quite often my thinking leads me straight to God and I get revelations I would never think of in a million years.

As I was thinking, I realized that "our worship" is usually a way in which we identify ourselves.

To be a true pentecostal church we have to sing loud and long with lots of musical accompaniment. (I think a lot of Pentecostals have this idea God is deaf)

To be a high Anglican we have to be all serious and somber and go through set rituals that are never deviated from. (I think) Similarly the Catholic Church.

To be a Baptist, well that is anyone's guess. The hymn-prayer sandwich, the gentle charismatic, the all-out enthusiastic, some music, lots of music. You name it they have got it.

The there is the pseudo pentecostal/charismatic that have all trappings of that form of worship but it is dead as a dodo because they haven't realized that music is a heart thing, not something you turn on and off at will.

Very few will embrace variety with pentecostal, charismatic, hymns, songs, Psalms, some music, no music, and old uncle Tom Cobley and all.

We are creatures of habit and we like the worship to be done a certain way because it suits us and satisfies the cravings of our personality (there are four types).

So one has to ask the question, is our worship really worship or a means whereby we are identified and satisfied.

Do we have meetings that go on for hours filled with worship because God is inhabiting the praises of his people?

The best meeting that I have ever been in lasted six hours from 6pm till midnight and most of it was worship. We could not not worship and we could not stop because the Holy Spirit had taken over and we were all under his power.

Because of the purity of the worship, NO ONE wanted to go home. (This was in a charismatic Brethren Church. Don't faint).

I often encounter believers searching for a christian drummer , etc. When Jesus told the woman at the well that God is a Spirit and the time is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship in Spirit and in Truth. Not about a place nor about a song ( although nothing wrong with either. My fear is that we are living very worldy lives M-F and then try to work up a pleasing worship to God on certain times of the week . The rest of the week, we are busy with our lives .

I wonder how much money is spent on praise and worship while our bothers and sisters in Christ overseas go hungry ? That does not strike me as pleasing or Truth. " I was hungry and did you find a drummer ? I was sick and in prison and who played the piano ? I wonder was God pleased with the early Christians who met before dawn to sing a song unto Christ before going to their day jobs as slaves . Do we even know what is pleasing to God ? Please forgive my hyperbole or my sounding cynical but I am seriously concerned with what we think is important and what Jesus Christ deemed as important on judgement day.

 

[WolfGate]

I often encounter believers searching for a christian drummer , etc. When Jesus told the woman at the well that God is a Spirit and the time is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship in Spirit and in Truth. Not about a place nor about a song ( although nothing wrong with either. My fear is that we are living very worldy lives M-F and then try to work up a pleasing worship to God on certain times of the week . The rest of the week, we are busy with our lives .

I wonder how much money is spent on praise and worship while our bothers and sisters in Christ overseas go hungry ? That does not strike me as pleasing or Truth. " I was hungry and did you find a drummer ? I was sick and in prison and who played the piano ? I wonder was God pleased with the early Christians who met before dawn to sing a song unto Christ before going to their day jobs as slaves . Do we even know what is pleasing to God ? Please forgive my hyperbole or my sounding cynical but I am seriously concerned with what we think is important and what Jesus Christ deemed as important on judgement day.

I understand your thoughts and concerns. Truth is we are not told to do "either/or" in this case. We are commanded to sing praise to God and to serve those in need. Yes, if someone is only concerned about the drummer that would be a concern. But don't swing the pendulum too far the other way by believing the drummer should only be sought if every hungry person has been fed. We should work on both of them.

 

[LinkH]

God is a Spirit and they who prostate to the Father will prostate in spiririt and in truth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If you aren't at church to receive (from God) you have no clue what a Sunday gathering is for.