honoring the law or honoring my husband

[evoeth]

We delved into why he felt the way he felt and it turns out he was feeling very resentful towards Christian expectations

To be fair, they are quite ridiculous. A casual perusal of the "struggles with sexuality" sub forum is pretty enlightening as to how Christian expectations completely warp the minds of innocent people with guilt from impossible standards and unscientific notions of sexuality (consider also that there simply is no sub forum for positive expression of sex/sexuality).

So now that he is an adult he is extremely bitter over some of the things he missed out on due to his strict upbringing.

So was I. That bitterness passed with me. Your husband seems to show behaviors that I don't associate with bitterness. Not helping a friend? I've been cynical about a lot of things but through all that I've dropped some serious cash and effort to help friends. Your husband sounds like he's never spent a second thinking about morality outside of a religious framework. And this can be very damaging for some people when they leave religion.

 

[evoeth]

You might want to read about deconversion experiences for some perspective. Because it does sound sort of like one of those, but without any of the grounding in other moral foundations.

 

[lambkisses]

I wouldn't necessarily turn him in, but you should decide how much it's bothering you, to what degree this behavior would effect your relationship with him, and talk to him about it. Oh, and maybe talk to a therapist too.

Honestly, should this bother me at all? I was thinking how obliged are we really to follow statutory laws (laws which govern behaviors where there are no real victim). I am beginning to ask my self was it even really wrong of my husband to cut the boot off his car. His side of the story is that he parked in a visitor's lot and there was no clear signage as to what qualifies a person as a visitor (apparently you need a visitor permit from the admin office). He said no one told him that when his company was asked to participate in the career fair. I told him that if that was the case he should have handled it through the proper chanels and he can't just take the law into his own hands. He asked me why not? He seems to believe that in this day and age enforcement of the law seems arbitrary and capricious (hillary's emails being his favorite counterpoint). He argued that he should not have to subject himself to the whims of a parking enforcement officer, that he believes his property was improperly impeded so he owed no duty to their regulations.
My brother and father both agree with him and they don't think he did anything wrong. He doesn't think he did anything wrong, this is why I am rely trying to figure out what exactly did Jesus call us to do concerning civil secular authority and at what point does disobedience become acceptable.

 

[lambkisses]

To be fair, they are quite ridiculous. A casual perusal of the "struggles with sexuality" sub forum is pretty enlightening as to how Christian expectations completely warp the minds of innocent people with guilt from impossible standards and unscientific notions of sexuality (consider also that there simply is no sub forum for positive expression of sex/sexuality).

This is the reason I have let a lot of stuff slide recently. And have just made going to church or not 100% his decision. I want him to get in the mind set that he does things like attend service or give an offering is because he feels he should not because he feels others think he should.

. Your husband sounds like he's never spent a second thinking about morality outside of a religious framework. And this can be very damaging for some people when they leave religion.

He grew up with "you do these things because they are right and they will make your parents happy, if your parents aren't happy you won't be allowed to be happy" so I can definitely see that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The breaking point it seemed was when I asked him for money to help a friend in need. I detailed what happened in my first thread here. He did agree to go to marriage counseling and we did go to a Christian counselor who is also a psychologist. We delved into why he felt the way he felt and it turns out he was feeling very resentful towards Christian expectations. His parents are Chinese Christians who were very poor and practiced a very strict interpretation of evangelical Christianity. So now that he is an adult he is extremely bitter over some of the things he missed out on due to his strict upbringing. I guess when I asked him to put off a purchase to free up some money to help a friend the dam just burst and he realized that everything he was doing was out of sheer habit and that he wasn't going to do it anymore. It really is a shame because before his break every one in the church loved him.

Ah, I think I better understand then.

I don't like to come on these boards and publicly criticize this denomination or that, because I know each one has good and sincere people in them, and they generally all have pieces (quite large pieces, usually) of the truth.

But I've seen this kind of thing happen too. And I was raised evangelical - at least the religious connection I had. My core family was not practicing, but I myself was seeking since a very young age, and my great-grandmother was very devout.

There can sometimes be a disconnect, and it seems to come from the things where the more modern denominations diverge from the earliest Church. Worst seems to be the ideas of "thou shalt not's" and WHY we don't do evil things, particularly if a person never sees past the threat of "going to hell" by way of punishment if we make God unhappy with us. Parents who convey those expectations as THE CORE of their faith seem to cause this sort of rebellion frequently in their children.

I don't mean to speak just clinically either. My father did not raise me very much, but he was a devout Pentecostal, and one of my sisters especially went far in that direction and was murdered, so it really touches my heart.

And it sounds to me - forgive me - that your husband is at risk of not even being a believer at all, but simply lived under rules for a time, which ... Lord have mercy ... can be very damaging.

I am not sure what to tell you. It's probably not good for him to go to Church right now. And he probably never needs to be reminded with the image of God he was taught growing up (I'm guessing here) because it probably was a very warped image of the True God, and not one he can believe in or be faithful to.

I wish there was a way to convey to him, in a nutshell, how the early Church viewed God, man, and salvation.

Rather than sin being breaking God's law (although to break God's law IS a sin), and an angry God out to execute judgement and bent on punishing someone though suffering ....

If that is how he sees it ...

God rather created man and all of creation in love and desired it to be in communion with Him and good for us. Sin is more like a disease, a cancer, that was introduced in and spread to all people and made all of creation infected. We are born innocent, into this infected environment, and we all become infected to some degree. God wants ALL people and all creation with them healed of the sickness, and is doing everything necessary to bring that about. But He won't force anyone to accept it, because He respects our will. In the end, the suffering and torment of any persons who refuse to be cured will be the suffering of their own ever-growing infection, not the punishment of God. God will love them anyway (though the ones that truly still hate Him will be tormented by that too, being so warped by their desire to sin). THIS is the original Gospel. Yes, Christ God became man, was crucified, and rose from the dead, but it was not because God had to see someone suffer. His death WAS a sacrifice to pay for our sins (when did God ever demand the animal sacrifices in the OT be tortured?). But more importantly, God desires we live forever, and He created us with that potential, but because we separated ourselves from Him willingly, and He is the source of life, we all entered under the curse of death. That is what God desires to save us from. God Himself, dying, destroyed death, because He is life. Through His death and resurrection, death is defeated and we can (and will) be resurrected.

That is the understanding of the early Christians. That is what the martyrs of the early centuries were holding onto.

I understand the rejection of God by those who see only the punitive, angry, old man in the sky watching us like bugs under a microscope, just waiting for a chance to be justified in squashing us. And that's the view some come away with. It's terribly damaging, and to be honest, its blasphemous as well. Anyone who sees God in that way and still "loves Him" is doing so under a kind of warped psychological phenomenon that also causes some people to love captors or tormentors, usually because they see them as the source of supplying needs.

Anyway.

Forgive me please if any of this sounds harsh. I do have strong feelings about it, because I've seen it shipwreck whatever faith some people might have. It's more logical to disbelieve God exists than to believe in the angry, punishing one, if that is the view one learns.

We hope that God will have mercy on such people, because they do not reject HIM, they reject a charicature of Him, and have perhaps never heard the real Gospel.

Those who do not know Him, but have love, kindness, truth, and such working in them, do so by the working of God's grace. I am NOT saying "works save us" but I am saying true goodness comes from God, so while they may not know Him, He works in some small way in them. This is no statement whatsoever on their eternal judgement - it is not my place to comment on that for any person, as judgement belongs to God and God alone. But rather than a vengeful judge, He is a loving one, that is seeking to draw people and heal them, rather than looking for excuses to burn them.

Anything else I might say is probably redundant. You and your husband have my prayers.

 

[lambkisses]

Ah, I think I better understand then.

I don't like to come on these boards and publicly criticize this denomination or that, because I know each one has good and sincere people in them, and they generally all have pieces (quite large pieces, usually) of the truth.

But I've seen this kind of thing happen too. And I was raised evangelical - at least the religious connection I had. My core family was not practicing, but I myself was seeking since a very young age, and my great-grandmother was very devout.

There can sometimes be a disconnect, and it seems to come from the things where the more modern denominations diverge from the earliest Church. Worst seems to be the ideas of "thou shalt not's" and WHY we don't do evil things, particularly if a person never sees past the threat of "going to hell" by way of punishment if we make God unhappy with us. Parents who convey those expectations as THE CORE of their faith seem to cause this sort of rebellion frequently in their children.

I don't mean to speak just clinically either. My father did not raise me very much, but he was a devout Pentecostal, and one of my sisters especially went far in that direction and was murdered, so it really touches my heart.

And it sounds to me - forgive me - that your husband is at risk of not even being a believer at all, but simply lived under rules for a time, which ... Lord have mercy ... can be very damaging.

I am not sure what to tell you. It's probably not good for him to go to Church right now. And he probably never needs to be reminded with the image of God he was taught growing up (I'm guessing here) because it probably was a very warped image of the True God, and not one he can believe in or be faithful to.

I wish there was a way to convey to him, in a nutshell, how the early Church viewed God, man, and salvation.

Rather than sin being breaking God's law (although to break God's law IS a sin), and an angry God out to execute judgement and bent on punishing someone though suffering ....

If that is how he sees it ...

God rather created man and all of creation in love and desired it to be in communion with Him and good for us. Sin is more like a disease, a cancer, that was introduced in and spread to all people and made all of creation infected. We are born innocent, into this infected environment, and we all become infected to some degree. God wants ALL people and all creation with them healed of the sickness, and is doing everything necessary to bring that about. But He won't force anyone to accept it, because He respects our will. In the end, the suffering and torment of any persons who refuse to be cured will be the suffering of their own ever-growing infection, not the punishment of God. God will love them anyway (though the ones that truly still hate Him will be tormented by that too, being so warped by their desire to sin). THIS is the original Gospel. Yes, Christ God became man, was crucified, and rose from the dead, but it was not because God had to see someone suffer. His death WAS a sacrifice to pay for our sins (when did God ever demand the animal sacrifices in the OT be tortured?). But more importantly, God desires we live forever, and He created us with that potential, but because we separated ourselves from Him willingly, and He is the source of life, we all entered under the curse of death. That is what God desires to save us from. God Himself, dying, destroyed death, because He is life. Through His death and resurrection, death is defeated and we can (and will) be resurrected.

That is the understanding of the early Christians. That is what the martyrs of the early centuries were holding onto.

I understand the rejection of God by those who see only the punitive, angry, old man in the sky watching us like bugs under a microscope, just waiting for a chance to be justified in squashing us. And that's the view some come away with. It's terribly damaging, and to be honest, its blasphemous as well. Anyone who sees God in that way and still "loves Him" is doing so under a kind of warped psychological phenomenon that also causes some people to love captors or tormentors, usually because they see them as the source of supplying needs.

Anyway.

Forgive me please if any of this sounds harsh. I do have strong feelings about it, because I've seen it shipwreck whatever faith some people might have. It's more logical to disbelieve God exists than to believe in the angry, punishing one, if that is the view one learns.

We hope that God will have mercy on such people, because they do not reject HIM, they reject a charicature of Him, and have perhaps never heard the real Gospel.

Those who do not know Him, but have love, kindness, truth, and such working in them, do so by the working of God's grace. I am NOT saying "works save us" but I am saying true goodness comes from God, so while they may not know Him, He works in some small way in them. This is no statement whatsoever on their eternal judgement - it is not my place to comment on that for any person, as judgement belongs to God and God alone. But rather than a vengeful judge, He is a loving one, that is seeking to draw people and heal them, rather than looking for excuses to burn them.

Anything else I might say is probably redundant. You and your husband have my prayers.

Your words are so kind and encouraging. I am honestly not too concerned about his salvation as I am sure he is not rejecting Jesus and there is a TON of good I see in him. It's just some of what he says is decidedly offensive to others and "unchrist like". I know we are not saved by our works but that is not what I am getting at. Honestly the fact that I see so much good in him it makes his attitude all the more frustrating.
Like today, a couple detectives came by to "investigate" the missing boot. Again he was EXTREMELY disrespectful towards them. When they left I told him to be careful just incase they do gather enough evidence. He told me that he doesn't need to careful shine it is obvious that they they do not have enough to even get a search warrant (which they didn't have). I argued that still they are just doing their jobs and that there is no reason to treat them so poorly especially since he did do the thing they were investigating. My husband just took it as a joke. Then about an hour later one of the women from our former church came by because the storms last night caused a tree limb to break and it was precarious over her house. She came to pretty much plead for my husband to help her husband and sons since my husband is pretty good with this kind of thing (he's a structural engineer and just amazing with tools and machines). Based on how my husband had been acting recently and since this was one of our former church peers I braced my self for an extremely embarrassing diatribe. But instead without any prompting from me he told that woman to give him a few minutes to put on shine dungarees and load up the truck. He even insisted on bringing enough harnesses and hard hats for the other men who were going to involved. He worked on that thee with that woman's husband and sons for hours. I watched him work along side them, lead them and instruct them how to do everything safely. The most impressive sight was when he dropped the branch inches away from the roof gable and missing both ladders. Then when they finished the woman and her husband offered him money but he refused it. He even ordered pizza and paid for it because he said that the woman's youngest son (9 years old)was the best helper he ever had. He did all this stuff with out me promoting him or even asking him. So I know he had a good heart, and I feel infinitely blessed that he is this way. It is just frustrating when he acts out in such a way like he is trying to convince others he is a bad guy.
It is also small things too that I see his goodness shine through his jackassery. Like in the back of his truck he always carries around an unlocking airwedge. He says it is just in case of lockouts. I use to tease him that if he was locked out wouldn't the wedge be locked in? And he would just laugh. So obviously he carries that thing around so he can help total strangers, and I have seen him do it. He always claims that he can make a lot of money doing unlocks but he always conviently "forgets" to ask for money. And that he will remember next time.
I thinkthat the goodness is an integral part of him. It is just a shame that he is currently wanting people to think he is "bad".

 

[~Anastasia~]

Your words are so kind and encouraging. I am honestly not too concerned about his salvation as I am sure he is not rejecting Jesus and there is a TON of good I see in him. It's just some of what he says is decidedly offensive to others and "unchrist like". I know we are not saved by our works but that is not what I am getting at. Honestly the fact that I see so much good in him it makes his attitude all the more frustrating.
Like today, a couple detectives came by to "investigate" the missing boot. Again he was EXTREMELY disrespectful towards them. When they left I told him to be careful just incase they do gather enough evidence. He told me that he doesn't need to careful shine it is obvious that they they do not have enough to even get a search warrant (which they didn't have). I argued that still they are just doing their jobs and that there is no reason to treat them so poorly especially since he did do the thing they were investigating. My husband just took it as a joke. Then about an hour later one of the women from our former church came by because the storms last night caused a tree limb to break and it was precarious over her house. She came to pretty much plead for my husband to help her husband and sons since my husband is pretty good with this kind of thing (he's a structural engineer and just amazing with tools and machines). Based on how my husband had been acting recently and since this was one of our former church peers I braced my self for an extremely embarrassing diatribe. But instead without any prompting from me he told that woman to give him a few minutes to put on shine dungarees and load up the truck. He even insisted on bringing enough harnesses and hard hats for the other men who were going to involved. He worked on that thee with that woman's husband and sons for hours. I watched him work along side them, lead them and instruct them how to do everything safely. The most impressive sight was when he dropped the branch inches away from the roof gable and missing both ladders. Then when they finished the woman and her husband offered him money but he refused it. He even ordered pizza and paid for it because he said that the woman's youngest son (9 years old)was the best helper he ever had. He did all this stuff with out me promoting him or even asking him. So I know he had a good heart, and I feel infinitely blessed that he is this way. It is just frustrating when he acts out in such a way like he is trying to convince others he is a bad guy.
It is also small things too that I see his goodness shine through his jackassery. Like in the back of his truck he always carries around an unlocking airwedge. He says it is just in case of lockouts. I use to tease him that if he was locked out wouldn't the wedge be locked in? And he would just laugh. So obviously he carries that thing around so he can help total strangers, and I have seen him do it. He always claims that he can make a lot of money doing unlocks but he always conviently "forgets" to ask for money. And that he will remember next time.
I thinkthat the goodness is an integral part of him. It is just a shame that he is currently wanting people to think he is "bad".

I am glad you can find encouragement. And of course you have much more insight into what's going on with your husband than anyone online could have. I'm very glad to hear what you related about him helping the lady from your church. It does sound like he has a good heart, and that's always encouraging. Hopefully he will work through his issues and get past wanting to appear to be bad.

God be with you.

 

[lambkisses]

I am glad you can find encouragement. And of course you have much more insight into what's going on with your husband than anyone online could have. I'm very glad to hear what you related about him helping the lady from your church. It does sound like he has a good heart, and that's always encouraging. Hopefully he will work through his issues and get past wanting to appear to be bad.

God be with you.

Thank you so much. I think he is going through a phase of no one tells me what to do. And who knows this may not displease God at all.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you so much. I think he is going through a phase of no one tells me what to do. And who knows this may not displease God at all.

Well, it's a dangerous tendency, but that is because people tend to turn it against God.

There are times when we are obligated before God to oppose civil authorities (when they contradict God's instructions to us) so they are certainly not an ultimate authority. But otherwise, of course, we are to submit to them.

It sounds like not a good time to remind your husband of that though. The bigger picture is what has caused this, and how he directs his responses and how he comes out of it. I will pray he works through it soon. God be with you both.

 

[lambkisses]

To be fair, they are quite ridiculous. A casual perusal of the "struggles with sexuality" sub forum is pretty enlightening as to how Christian expectations completely warp the minds of innocent people with guilt from impossible standards and unscientific notions of sexuality (consider also that there simply is no sub forum for positive expression of sex/sexuality).

Hmm, although I think this is s very interesting topic, I dint think it applies to my husband. Guilt has never really been something that I known him to struggle with. I have seen him around since he was 6 or 7 and I was 12 or 13 or so. (We were not childhood sweethearts we didn't start dating until we were both in our 20's). But anyways when he was a child he was always fairly well behaved and when he was a teen he was always a leader among the boys and one of the most outspoken but also the most well loved by our church. Our church was never particularly judgmental or overly preechy, in fact I remember the youth pastor would frequently tell his parents that "boys will be boys " when ever he got himself and the other boys into mischief.
It is funny because everyone in the church our parents' generation loved him for his intelligence and his charisma but there was always a certain amount if mischief about him that all of us younger people knew was there. It didn't make him a bad person, though it did make him a jackass at times.
It was that jackassery that almost made me hate him forever close to when we first started dating. When I was in high school I was a bit heavier but I dropped allot of it in college but still had a bit of a pooch. One day after church service my car wouldn't start and I was bent over the grill with the hood up, escentially praying that i could some how figure it out. That's when I felt someone come up behind me and pinch my belly. It was my future husband and he made some insulting comment about how I sucking in won't hide all that bacon. I spun around to slap him but he caught my hand mid air. He let me go and asked if he may take a look. Since I was kind of desperate I told him to knock himself out. He tried jumping it for me but it made one loud click but didn't start and I told him thanks but I will get it towed. That's when he told me he knew exactly what's wrong with it and that all he needed was a fork. He then made another snide comment about how he was surprised a little porker like me wouldn't have a spare fork in her car. Anyways he ran inside the church and "borrowed" a fork from the kitchen and broke 2 of the tines off of it. He clamped one end of the jumper cable to the battery and the other end to the fork. He told me to stand back be ready to be amazed, then he crawled under my car and all of a sudden the car started up. At that point I was like "what the hell did you do? ". He told me that fit what ever reason the my soloniod was forcing the starter motor gear out but it was not delivering enough electricity to the starter motor. He told me that if the key is turned to the on position you can manually force the starter to start if you electrified the motor and the solonoid S post simultaneously. I asked him if the car is drive able and he told me sure but every time I want to start it I would have to crawl under and jump the starter with the fork. He told me to make sure I don't touch anything else with the fork or I could fuse my car, he was then gracious enough to let me keep his jumper cables and the fork. He then felt it appropriate to give me a smack on the butt. As he was about to drive away he told me that one more thing was to hold the clamp on the cable rather than the fork it self because the fork can get very hot. And with that he left. I was very insulted and honestly very unhappy that he was kind of a jerk but I was relieved that my car was started because like I said I was desperate at that time (no car=no job which=no money). Later that day I needed to go run an errand but my car problem wasn't really resolved so I was about to do the fork thing again. That's when my dad saw me and yelled at me for doing something idiotic. I told him about what my future husband advised me to do to keep on the road and he wasn't extremely impressed because he believed that what I was told was extremely dangerous. He immediately called his parents and I guess his mom badgered him into coming over to my place to fix it for real. At that time I didn't really want to talk to him or even see him really but my father made me stay outside and"assist" so I would know what to do next time. It turned out I needed a new battery cable and new solonoid which the closes auto zone didn't have. Me and my future husband ended up driving around to a couple different shops until he found the right one. In that time we talked a lot and he ended up asking me out. So yeah, I have known for a while that although goodness is part of who he is, so is being an ass.

 

[TurtleAnne]

Ephesians 5 and other parts of the Bible give the chain of command.

God is at the very top.
Then the husband.
Then the wife.
Then children are to obey their parents.

But this is within the context of a family that has Christ's teachings at the center of everything.

And also, the specific instructions in Ephesians do not tell the husband to boss his wife around, or to dominate his wife, and so on.

It says, "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her," followed by an even more in-depth explanation, including, "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word."

This means a lot of things. First of all the husband should be submitting to God. The husband should be loving his wife the way Jesus loved the church, which is a pretty huge responsibility. It means that husbands should be loving, patient, forgiving, protective and providing. The part about sanctifying, means that a husband should not be trying to drag his wife or wife-to-be down in sin with him, but rather should behave in such ways that help to spiritually protect his wife, in addition to loving, protecting, providing, etc.

This is commonly rolled out to explain to young women that if a guy says he loves her and then wants to get in her pants before marrying her, that is not "love" but just "lust" because a man who loves her would never try to drag her into sin, but rather lead her in righteousness, lead her in a sanctifying way.

The same applies to many other situations, though. If your husband is trying to drag you down an immoral path and then expects you to be his partner in crime by lying on his behalf or more, then he is not concerned with your sanctity, nor your safety or your well-being. And when a link on the chain of command goes corrupt, you've got to reach for the next link up, which in this case is God. Prioritize God before anything or anyone else, be it the law or your husband or whatever.

 

[lambkisses]

The same applies to many other situations, though. If your husband is trying to drag you down an immoral path and then expects you to be his partner in crime by lying on his behalf or more, then he is not concerned with your sanctity, nor your safety or your well-being.

This is exactly why things of late began bothering me. It is clear my husband is doing a lot of things that are objectionable, unchrist like? Definitely. But to be honest we all fall short of Christ. He is refusing church but he is not rejecting God or Jesus. My husband has very little respect for the law or civil authorities and I am honestly very ambivalent to that. All my life my parents and the church have taught that Jesus taught us to obey the laws of man and condemn law breakers. However they have nothing but praise for people like Amon Bundy and antigovernment militia types. They say that these people are standing up to a government which has rejected God. So which is it? Are we to obey civil authorities or do we get to decide that if the government rejects God it is OK to rebel? Keep in mind that when Jesus taught "give unto Caesar", the in many respect Roman rule was much more "wicked" than the federal government of today, in the very least we don't have to worship the president as a god. So that brings me back to the query, is it genuinely "against God or sinful " for my husband to show civil authority so little regard? Like another poster mentioned this isn't a violent crime. It is most certainly considered "theft" in our code of criminal law but add my husband argues the university took it upon it self to attach their property to his property so he considers it a "gift" so would this be considered a violation of thou shall not steal? I have so many conflicts over this all.

 

[evoeth]

All my life my parents and the church have taught that Jesus taught us to obey the laws of man and condemn law breakers. However they have nothing but praise for people like Amon Bundy and antigovernment militia types. They say that these people are standing up to a government which has rejected God. So which is it? Are we to obey civil authorities or do we get to decide that if the government rejects God it is OK to rebel?

Curious, isn't it?

 

[akmom]

Cutting the boot off the tire is illegal, and it's also wrong. Plenty of laws are stupid and unfair, and protesting them by sharing one's experiences is both acceptable and useful in changing those laws. Blowing them off and doing your own thing is rarely the better choice. (Hiding Jewish refugees during the Holocaust comes to mind as a rare exception.) For a society to run smoothly, one must sometimes suffer inconveniences. Had your husband brought his grievances to the authorities, complaining about signage and fair warning, he may have received a reprieve. Plenty of people have been able to do this, though more fail than succeed, I'm sure. Cutting the boot off as a first resort was unreasonable.

Your husband is about to learn that rules and laws really do apply to him, and haven't just been arbitrary forced on him by his parents. It seems obvious, but as overbearing as his upbringing seems to have been, I'm not really surprised that he is struggling to know how much wiggle room truly exists in the world. After all, there are plenty of supposed rules that people don't actually follow... matters of technicality and liability that are only examined when an issue arises and they have to be. So he may very well not understand this. LET HIM FIGURE IT OUT.

He thinks that denying guilt and hiding the boot are going to get him out of this one. Guess what, they don't need to locate the boot to make their case. The house visit was a courtesy... an opportunity for him to come clean, accept his penalty, and minimize the use of resources in pursuing the case. That's why they didn't have a warrant, and they have no intention of coming back with one. All they need is a record showing the boot was put on his car, and that the car is now gone without the fine being paid. He would need compelling evidence that he was somewhere else in order to make an outlandish defense that someone falsified his parking violation. (It's not gonna happen.)

You don't need to intervene in this. In fact, you shouldn't. Sending an anonymous gift card for the boot replacement won't change anything. He is still going to be cited and charged for the full amount, whether or not mysterious money turns up. So you'll just pay for it twice. Also, he isn't going to learn any lessons if he think he got caught because of mom or wife - the perpetual enforcer of rules - turned him in. Do you really want to absorb that blame? Besides, it doesn't sound like you want to be on his bad side.

 

[lambkisses]

Cutting the boot off the tire is illegal, and it's also wrong. Plenty of laws are stupid and unfair, and protesting them by sharing one's experiences is both acceptable and useful in changing those laws. Blowing them off and doing your own thing is rarely the better choice. (Hiding Jewish refugees during the Holocaust comes to mind as a rare exception.) For a society to run smoothly, one must sometimes suffer inconveniences. Had your husband brought his grievances to the authorities, complaining about signage and fair warning, he may have received a reprieve. Plenty of people have been able to do this, though more fail than succeed, I'm sure. Cutting the boot off as a first resort was unreasonable.

Your husband is about to learn that rules and laws really do apply to him, and haven't just been arbitrary forced on him by his parents. It seems obvious, but as overbearing as his upbringing seems to have been, I'm not really surprised that he is struggling to know how much wiggle room truly exists in the world. After all, there are plenty of supposed rules that people don't actually follow... matters of technicality and liability that are only examined when an issue arises and they have to be. So he may very well not understand this. LET HIM FIGURE IT OUT.

He thinks that denying guilt and hiding the boot are going to get him out of this one. Guess what, they don't need to locate the boot to make their case. The house visit was a courtesy... an opportunity for him to come clean, accept his penalty, and minimize the use of resources in pursuing the case. That's why they didn't have a warrant, and they have no intention of coming back with one. All they need is a record showing the boot was put on his car, and that the car is now gone without the fine being paid. He would need compelling evidence that he was somewhere else in order to make an outlandish defense that someone falsified his parking violation. (It's not gonna happen.)

You don't need to intervene in this. In fact, you shouldn't. Sending an anonymous gift card for the boot replacement won't change anything. He is still going to be cited and charged for the full amount, whether or not mysterious money turns up. So you'll just pay for it twice. Also, he isn't going to learn any lessons if he think he got caught because of mom or wife - the perpetual enforcer of rules - turned him in. Do you really want to absorb that blame? Besides, it doesn't sound like you want to be on his bad side.

I completely agree with you that as members of society we are all expected to live by the law and social norms both explicit and implicit. That's is why I really don't find my husband's disrespect towards civil authority to be all that amusing. Today deputies cane to execute a search warrant and my husband just acted the fool and showed the officers absolutely no respect. In the end all the officers were able to do was take pictures of his truck and the items inside.

All they need is a record showing the boot was put on his car, and that the car is now gone without the fine being paid. He would need compelling evidence that he was somewhere else in order to make an outlandish defense that someone falsified his parking violation. (It's not gonna happen.)

Although I agree with you concerning social responsibility I must disagree with that particular statement. Right wrong or indifferent that is not how American jurisprudence works. Theft is a criminal matter which nabs the state must prove beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that my husband did indeed remove the boot and absconded with it. The burden of proof is on the prosecution always. My husband made it painfully clear to the deputies. His exact words was that it "it was up to them to prove that he indeed removed the boot instead of having relations with the lead detective's mother ". He told them to either arrest if they had probably cause or kindly "gtfo". This is why I don't think he will learn anything he still thinks this is a joke.

 

[lambkisses]

Curious, isn't it?

Curious, isn't it?

This is why I feel so conflicted.

 

[Hank77]

Ah, I think I better understand then.

I don't like to come on these boards and publicly criticize this denomination or that, because I know each one has good and sincere people in them, and they generally all have pieces (quite large pieces, usually) of the truth.

But I've seen this kind of thing happen too. And I was raised evangelical - at least the religious connection I had. My core family was not practicing, but I myself was seeking since a very young age, and my great-grandmother was very devout.

There can sometimes be a disconnect, and it seems to come from the things where the more modern denominations diverge from the earliest Church. Worst seems to be the ideas of "thou shalt not's" and WHY we don't do evil things, particularly if a person never sees past the threat of "going to hell" by way of punishment if we make God unhappy with us. Parents who convey those expectations as THE CORE of their faith seem to cause this sort of rebellion frequently in their children.

I don't mean to speak just clinically either. My father did not raise me very much, but he was a devout Pentecostal, and one of my sisters especially went far in that direction and was murdered, so it really touches my heart.

And it sounds to me - forgive me - that your husband is at risk of not even being a believer at all, but simply lived under rules for a time, which ... Lord have mercy ... can be very damaging.

I am not sure what to tell you. It's probably not good for him to go to Church right now. And he probably never needs to be reminded with the image of God he was taught growing up (I'm guessing here) because it probably was a very warped image of the True God, and not one he can believe in or be faithful to.

I wish there was a way to convey to him, in a nutshell, how the early Church viewed God, man, and salvation.

Rather than sin being breaking God's law (although to break God's law IS a sin), and an angry God out to execute judgement and bent on punishing someone though suffering ....

If that is how he sees it ...

God rather created man and all of creation in love and desired it to be in communion with Him and good for us. Sin is more like a disease, a cancer, that was introduced in and spread to all people and made all of creation infected. We are born innocent, into this infected environment, and we all become infected to some degree. God wants ALL people and all creation with them healed of the sickness, and is doing everything necessary to bring that about. But He won't force anyone to accept it, because He respects our will. In the end, the suffering and torment of any persons who refuse to be cured will be the suffering of their own ever-growing infection, not the punishment of God. God will love them anyway (though the ones that truly still hate Him will be tormented by that too, being so warped by their desire to sin). THIS is the original Gospel. Yes, Christ God became man, was crucified, and rose from the dead, but it was not because God had to see someone suffer. His death WAS a sacrifice to pay for our sins (when did God ever demand the animal sacrifices in the OT be tortured?). But more importantly, God desires we live forever, and He created us with that potential, but because we separated ourselves from Him willingly, and He is the source of life, we all entered under the curse of death. That is what God desires to save us from. God Himself, dying, destroyed death, because He is life. Through His death and resurrection, death is defeated and we can (and will) be resurrected.

That is the understanding of the early Christians. That is what the martyrs of the early centuries were holding onto.

I understand the rejection of God by those who see only the punitive, angry, old man in the sky watching us like bugs under a microscope, just waiting for a chance to be justified in squashing us. And that's the view some come away with. It's terribly damaging, and to be honest, its blasphemous as well. Anyone who sees God in that way and still "loves Him" is doing so under a kind of warped psychological phenomenon that also causes some people to love captors or tormentors, usually because they see them as the source of supplying needs.

Anyway.

Forgive me please if any of this sounds harsh. I do have strong feelings about it, because I've seen it shipwreck whatever faith some people might have. It's more logical to disbelieve God exists than to believe in the angry, punishing one, if that is the view one learns.

We hope that God will have mercy on such people, because they do not reject HIM, they reject a charicature of Him, and have perhaps never heard the real Gospel.

Those who do not know Him, but have love, kindness, truth, and such working in them, do so by the working of God's grace. I am NOT saying "works save us" but I am saying true goodness comes from God, so while they may not know Him, He works in some small way in them. This is no statement whatsoever on their eternal judgement - it is not my place to comment on that for any person, as judgement belongs to God and God alone. But rather than a vengeful judge, He is a loving one, that is seeking to draw people and heal them, rather than looking for excuses to burn them.

Anything else I might say is probably redundant. You and your husband have my prayers.

There is so much truth and grace in your post that I wish I could give you more 'Winner' votes.

 

[Zurückschlagen]

Such great honor, coming here and telling us the whole story so the Police can read it. Why you don't reveal his name too, while you're at it.

Thank God I’m not married.

 

[~Anastasia~]

There is so much truth and grace in your post that I wish I could give you more 'Winner' votes.

Thank you for your kind words. Normally hearing things like that embarrasses me a little and I don't reply; after all anything good I have is by the grace of God alone. But I wanted you to know that I could use a little encouragement at the moment and you have graciously given me that. God bless you.

 

[akmom]

Although I agree with you concerning social responsibility I must disagree with that particular statement. Right wrong or indifferent that is not how American jurisprudence works. Theft is a criminal matter which nabs the state must prove beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that my husband did indeed remove the boot and absconded with it.

Unfortunately the standard is only "beyond a reasonable doubt," not beyond a shadow of a doubt. For traffic and parking violations, a lot of deference is given to the officers, so a video of him cutting the boot is not necessary. If they executed a search warrant, they were most likely hoping to come across more than that. They also have no obligation to chase down unlikely alibis. That burden of proof - an affirmative defense - would be on your husband and probably require subpoenaing the alleged witness. Good luck with that.