Homosexuality & Preference Options

Open Heart

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What, in your opinion, does the rest of society stand to lose a homosexuality becomes more socially acceptable? Like, specifically?
Homes where you have both a woman and a man raising the children are what is best for the children. We have all sorts of studies showing that children from families where the father is missing are at risk. Kids need both. Each sex brings something unique to parenting. It's not that being raised by gays is harmful. It's just that, all other things being equal, being raised by one of each is better.

That's what we know. There is also what we don't know. When something has been working for our species for as long as we know, it is hubris to meddle with it without having extraordinary reasons.
 
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Armoured

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Homes where you have both a woman and a man raising the children are what is best for the children. We have all sorts of studies showing that children from families where the father is missing are at risk. Kids need both. Each sex brings something unique to parenting. It's not that being raised by gays is harmful. It's just that, all other things being equal, being raised by one of each is better.
Actually, all relevant, credible, scientific studies show that children raised by same sex parents are just as likely to have positive outcomes as those raised by hetero parents. Want a link to articles?
That's what we know. There is also what we don't know. When something has been working for our species for as long as we know, it is hubris to meddle with it without having extraordinary reasons.
Except no one is talking about stopping what has worked. No one's "meddling" with anything, either. There have been single and same sex parents for as long as there have been families. All that would change is that they can be be acknowledged in public.

And you want to talk about extraordinary reasons? I'm pretty happy to consider the violence against homosexuals, and their morbidity rates as a direct result from social exclusion as pretty extraordinary reasons to change how things are.

Nebulous arguments about unspecified bad things that "might" happen notwithstanding. Come up with something specific and logically consistent that is vaguely likely to occur as a result of social acceptance of homosexuality? Great. We can discuss that all you want, and if it makes sense, I'll change my stance on the matter. But generic argument from tradition and claims of unspecified social catastrophe doesn't convince me.
 
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Open Heart

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Except no one is talking about stopping what has worked. No one's "meddling" with anything, either. There have been single and same sex parents for as long as there have been families. All that would change is that they can be be acknowledged in public.
But you aren't just advocating the occasional exception of a single parent or spinster aunts raising their orphaned nephew. You are advocating an entirely new paradigm that has never been tried before in history -- that of gay marriages being equally acceptable. IOW you are completely overthrowing the paradigm of mother-father-children. This has been known as the best thing for kids (not the only good thing, I know your studies too) but the BEST thing for kids since time immemorial. It is one of the foundations of civilization. And you want to throw it away.

May I ask you why you are Catholic? You obviously don't believe in Catholic teaching regarding marriage and sexual ethics.
 
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Armoured

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But you aren't just advocating the occasional exception of a single parent or spinster aunts raising their orphaned nephew. You are advocating an entirely new paradigm that has never been tried before in history -- that of gay marriages being equally acceptable. IOW you are completely overthrowing the paradigm of mother-father-children. This has been known as the best thing for kids (not the only good thing, I know your studies too) but the BEST thing for kids since time immemorial. It is one of the foundations of civilization. And you want to throw it away.

May I ask you why you are Catholic? You obviously don't believe in Catholic teaching regarding marriage and sexual ethics.
Nonsense. Roughly 10% of people are gay, give or take. That leaves 90% of people to keep doing the hetero thing. No one's suggesting traditional families be "overthrown".
This has been known as the best thing for kids (not the only good thing, I know your studies too) but the BEST thing for kids since time immemorial. It is one of the foundations of civilization. And you want to throw it away.
You can keep making claims like that, but unless you specify some actual harm you predict will come to children raised by openly gay parents, based on actual specific evidence, you're just making an assumption.

So do you have any such evidence based reasons?
May I ask you why you are Catholic?
No you may not. Because I'm sick of people inevitably attacking my Catholicism when I ask questions they can't address other ways. Maybe that's not what your doing, but it happens all the time, and I'm over it.
You obviously don't believe in Catholic teaching regarding marriage and sexual ethics.
My beliefs about marriage and sexual ethics are perfectly in line with Catholic teaching, thank you very much. And if we were ONLY talking about Catholics, my responses would be straight out of the catechism. But we're not talking about ONLY Catholics, are we? We're talking about society generally. And while Catholic teaching i a perfectly valid source of discernment for, you know, Catholics, I'm not a theocrat, and I don't support trying to enforce my religious beliefs against non Catholics by co-opting the force of secular law. Secular law should be evidence based, not religious based.
 
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SnowyMacie

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In countries that are more accepting of gays and less religious (like the UK), the number of openly gay or bisexual individuals exceeds 4 or 5 percent of the population. The US seems to be trending in that direction in terms of the percentage of the population that identifies as openly gay.

Not that suprising considering people in more religious communities could see their bisexuality as evidence of temptation instead of natural sexuality, or fear of repercussions because of admittance of it.
 
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CrystalDragon

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Nonsense. Roughly 10% of people are gay, give or take. That leaves 90% of people to keep doing the hetero thing. No one's suggesting traditional families be "overthrown".You can keep making claims like that, but unless you specify some actual harm you predict will come to children raised by openly gay parents, based on actual specific evidence, you're just making an assumption.

So do you have any such evidence based reasons?No you may not. Because I'm sick of people inevitably attacking my Catholicism when I ask questions they can't address other ways. Maybe that's not what your doing, but it happens all the time, and I'm over it.My beliefs about marriage and sexual ethics are perfectly in line with Catholic teaching, thank you very much. And if we were ONLY talking about Catholics, my responses would be straight out of the catechism. But we're not talking about ONLY Catholics, are we? We're talking about society generally. And while Catholic teaching i a perfectly valid source of discernment for, you know, Catholics, I'm not a theocrat, and I don't support trying to enforce my religious beliefs against non Catholics by co-opting the force of secular law. Secular law should be evidence based, not religious based.


THANK you. Not sure about the 10%, I think that's an overestimate, but otherwise I agree.
 
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SilverBear

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That is NOT true. They want much more than to be left alone. They want the norms of society changed.
Since the norm of our society is (largely) to deny this minority the same civil rights and legal protections that everyone else enjoys then change is necessary.
 
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FireDragon76

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Not that suprising considering people in more religious communities could see their bisexuality as evidence of temptation instead of natural sexuality, or fear of repercussions because of admittance of it.

Yes, even in the LGBT community, it is not easy to come out as bisexual. There's even stigma among gay men about bisexuality, so that community is not always supportive of that identity.

I could see even relatively tolerant religious communities exerting subtle pressure on people to remain closeted about their sexual and gender orientation. There are still a lot of conservative Episcopalian and Lutheran parishes out there, I know that from personal experience. They might tolerate a few gays as inquirers or newcomers as long as they don't cause too much of a fuss, but somebody in the congregation who has spent their whole life there might feel pressure to deny they were gay or transgender due to the potential consequences of coming out.

The number of potentially, openly gay and bisexual men and women out there is not fully accounted for by just claiming it's an insignificant number. And every gay or bisexual person in turn has friends and family, many of whom increasingly support and affirm them. And they have a stake in this issue too. So it's clear why this is such a divisive social issue, even though gays are "only 2 percent of the population" - because that just ignores what is really going on, what is really at stake.
 
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Open Heart

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Since the norm of our society is (largely) to deny this minority the same civil rights and legal protections that everyone else enjoys then change is necessary.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm bi (I choose to be celibate) and I have all the same civil rights as everyone else.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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What, in your opinion, does the rest of society stand to lose a homosexuality becomes more socially acceptable? Like, specifically?
Loss - off the cuff;
1)that reality, truth and morality are objective
2)that marriage is special
3)stability of the foundation of society
4)unity within society
5)cohesiveness within society
6)further loss of and respect for human dignity
7)shorter lines and parking for divorce court
8)that laws should reflect reality/natural law

adding
9)access to mental health and medical services
10) increase in SS marriages
11) unicorns (see post #117) would be more scared and perhaps rarer in societies were morals and respect for human dignity further broken down.

1&2&3&4&5&6 combining to
lower real marriage rates & further increase single parenting which:
  • increases poverty further exacerbating 3&4&5&6
  • ditto cohabitation, children out of wedlock, disease, general misery, abortions, and divorce etc.
Having 10) will;
  • increase numbers of people leading self destructive lifestyle which
    • lower life expectancy
    • represents additional costs/burden to society=loss
 
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SilverBear

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I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm bi (I choose to be celibate) and I have all the same civil rights as everyone else.
Are you sure? Do your state laws protect you form being fired because you are bisexual?
 
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SilverBear

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Loss - off the cuff;
that reality, truth and morality are objective
that marriage is special
stability of the foundation of society
unity within society
cohesiveness within society
further loss of and respect for human dignity
shorter lines and parking for divorce court
that laws should reflect reality/natural law
unicorns might sneeze more as well
 
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Open Heart

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Are you sure? Do your state laws protect you form being fired because you are bisexual?
California only protects in the public work sector, not the private work sector. However, my employer (a Christian non-profit) does not discriminate.

I don't talk about my sexual preferences at work. Nor do I talk about the fact that I'm celibate. It's no one's business. I don't want trouble. I also worry about trouble from leftist coworkers if I say I'm a Jew, so I don't go around saying I'm a Jew either. Nor do I share who I vote for. I don't understand why people share all sorts of private stuff.
 
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SilverBear

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California only protects in the public work sector, not the private work sector. However, my employer (a Christian non-profit) does not discriminate.

I don't talk about my sexual preferences at work. Nor do I talk about the fact that I'm celibate. It's no one's business. I don't want trouble. I also worry about trouble from leftist coworkers if I say I'm a Jew, so I don't go around saying I'm a Jew either. Nor do I share who I vote for. I don't understand why people share all sorts of private stuff.
Your employer doesn't discriminate but you keep quiet because you don't want trouble...

That aside - My point being is that you don't have the same rights as everyone else, you can be fired from your job and have no legal recourse.
 
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