Homosexuality & Preference Options

Douglas Hendrickson

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Woah... I created this thread and NEVER made the claims you're suggesting. Not once did I suggest 100% of women are bisexual. :confused:

The purpose of the thread was to show that logically, there seems to be three possible options by which one can arrive at homosexuality.

Can you explain this comment for me:
"the reason for this thread is to take the opportunity to suggest SUCH FALSITY"

Believe it or not, it is not all about you, even though you created this obnoxious thread.
My post #11 that you quoted was a response to Haramis, NOT YOU. The 100% claim was his/hers.

This rather explains my comment - you created the thread and it was the occasion, THE STIMULUS, for such an outrageous claim.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Note, I'm not promoting anything, nor am I stating anything here is right or wrong.

I've been thinking on this and I believe there are three possible options.

1) You're born with a preference (most likely)
- e.g. Similar to being born with heterosexuality​
2) An environment condition altered your preference (likely)
- e.g. A negative sexual experience alters my preference
- very sad, but I know a few in this category​
3) You're not born with a preference (least likely)
- e.g. I "choose" a preference
- Least likely, because as a heterosexual man, I don't recall "choosing" heterosexuality, maybe some do, I dunno.​

In any of these options, it would seem to me the most logical would be #1 and #2, with #3 being the least logical option.

Note, I'm not saying being born a certain way makes something right, or wrong. Or subscribing to any of the possible options above makes something right or wrong. Just simply talking logic here in a philosophical sense.

I've run into homosexual individuals from each of the three categories you've articulated, and from what I can relate and tell of those interactions, Explanation 1 was most prominent as their self-description, with a moderate number of Explanation 2's, and Explanation 3 was represented by a single individual.
 
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ken777

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People who claim they were "born gay" are simply repeating the gay agenda which is to promote homosexuality as natural as being left handed or blue eyed, and prevent counselors from offering help to adolescents seeking to live according to their Christian faith.

Identical twin studies show that while there can be a predisposition to be same sex attracted, the environment plays a crucial role, notably for many men a poor relationship with the father.

Some people are born with a predisposition to a wide variety of behaviors, such as obesity, aggression, or addiction. Life experiences have a deciding affect as to how, or if, these behaviors are manifested.
 
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SnowyMacie

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and prevent counselors from offering help to adolescents seeking to live according to their Christian faith.

If you are advocating for conversion/reparative therapy, let me explain to you what actually happens in those counseling sessions...Children blaming their parents for their homosexuality, telling people to distance themselves from close friends because they're the wrong gender (having female friends as a gay guy or guy friends as a lesbian), fear mongering, encouraging shame, negative self-talk, even sniffing feces "to be reminded where homosexual men stick their penises", and asking a young person to defile themselves to "get back in touch with their masculinity." It's not just some support group where they all encourage each other to "keep fighting" and pray for each other. At best, it simply doesn't achieve it's goal, at worse it's psychologically damaging to young people and pushes them away from Christianity. I'm perfectly fine with LGBT Christians seeking therapy to help deal with their problems revolving around their sexuality, but that's not I'm talking about.
 
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ken777

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If you are advocating for conversion/reparative therapy, let me explain to you what actually happens in those counseling sessions...Children blaming their parents for their homosexuality, telling people to distance themselves from close friends because they're the wrong gender (having female friends as a gay guy or guy friends as a lesbian), fear mongering, encouraging shame, negative self-talk, even sniffing feces "to be reminded where homosexual men stick their penises", and asking a young person to defile themselves to "get back in touch with their masculinity." It's not just some support group where they all encourage each other to "keep fighting" and pray for each other. At best, it simply doesn't achieve it's goal, at worse it's psychologically damaging to young people and pushes them away from Christianity. I'm perfectly fine with LGBT Christians seeking therapy to help deal with their problems revolving around their sexuality, but that's not I'm talking about.
Your characterization of the work of Christian counselors is straight out of the gay agenda workbook. Look up a reputable source for those who support the client's right to live a life congruent with their freely chosen values, such as NARTH, Joseph Nicolosi, Focus on the Family, Genesis Christian Counseling.

Aversion therapy was commonly used in the past for a wide variety of psychological conditions, including homosexuality, but talk related therapies are now understood to be more effective.

The psychological damage you speak of is due to the hopelessness created by the homosexual culture which claims the individual has no choice.
 
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SnowyMacie

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Your characterization of the work of Christian counselors is straight out of the gay agenda workbook. Look up a reputable source for those who support the client's right to live a life congruent with their freely chosen values, such as NARTH, Joseph Nicolosi, Focus on the Family, Genesis Christian Counseling.

NARTH, which Joseph Nicolsi was apart of, Love Won Out (Focus on the Famly's ex-gay ministry that was sold to Exodus International), and Exodus International, are known to have practiced conversion therapy. The latter two of which have publicly apologized for the harm they caused to their clients and shut down. I've never heard of the third so I don't have an opinion about it, and don't know if NARTH still practices it, but it's unlikely they're doing it legally since California outlawed conversion therapy. If conversion therapy isn't what you are talking about, then we have nothing to discuss.
 
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ken777

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NARTH, which Joseph Nicolsi was apart of, Love Won Out (Focus on the Famly's ex-gay ministry that was sold to Exodus International), and Exodus International, are known to have practiced conversion therapy. The latter two of which have publicly apologized for the harm they caused to their clients and shut down. I've never heard of the third so I don't have an opinion about it, and don't know if NARTH still practices it, but it's unlikely they're doing it legally since California outlawed conversion therapy.
Hundreds of first hand accounts online show that therapy for those who wish to eliminate or control feelings of same sex attraction can be effective.

Relapse, as in any psychological condition, is not uncommon. Some in the leadership of Exodus International relapsed but Exodus Global Alliance continues.

Recent studies into natural sexual fluidity demonstrate that change can occur over time. Therapy today is directed at helping the client to achieve his/her personal goals and values. The Californian law overrides the right of individuals to seek help to live a life consistent with their religious beliefs.
 
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SilverBear

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People who claim they were "born gay" are simply repeating the gay agenda which is to promote homosexuality as natural as being left handed or blue eyed, and prevent counselors from offering help to adolescents seeking to live according to their Christian faith.
there are so many thing wrong in this sentence.
There is no gay agenda
Homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality
You can't promote homosexuality any more than you can promote red hair.
a few states have passed laws banning a an unethical practices IE conversion therapy, which relies of misinformation, the promotion of self hate and techniques that are physical, emotionally and spiritually abusive. Further conversion therapies are not just ineffective but actively harmful and are currently being marketed to target children as young as three years old.

Identical twin studies show that while there can be a predisposition to be same sex attracted, the environment plays a crucial role, notably for many men a poor relationship with the father.
no twin study says this.

Some people are born with a predisposition to a wide variety of behaviors, such as obesity, aggression, or addiction. Life experiences have a deciding affect as to how, or if, these behaviors are manifested.
and zero evidence to support this idea
 
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SilverBear

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Hundreds of first hand accounts online show that therapy for those who wish to eliminate or control feelings of same sex attraction can be effective.
one can go online and find thousands of first hand accounts of encounters with UFO's and of alien abduction.



Recent studies into natural sexual fluidity demonstrate that change can occur over time.

References

Therapy today is directed at helping the client to achieve his/her personal goals and values.
Not conversion therapy.


The Californian law overrides the right of individuals to seek help to live a life consistent with their religious beliefs.
The California law protects children from horrific abuse masquerading as therapy.
 
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SilverBear

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Your characterization of the work of Christian counselors is straight out of the gay agenda workbook. Look up a reputable source for those who support the client's right to live a life congruent with their freely chosen values, such as NARTH, Joseph Nicolosi, Focus on the Family, Genesis Christian Counseling.
Reputable? Hardly.
Reputable organizations and individuals support their claims and ideas with research and statistics. A hallmark of conversion therapies is a complete lack of research or evidence to back up their claims and ideas. Their claims about sexual orientation being changeable have nothing to support them. They refuse to publish any information on "success" rates or even what would constitute a successful outcome to their therapies. No evidence that what they do is safe or ethical. No follow up studies on clients. Nothing

Aversion therapy was commonly used in the past for a wide variety of psychological conditions, including homosexuality, but talk related therapies are now understood to be more effective.
More effective by who and by what standard?

As for aversion therapy we know that some ex-gay groups were using it on children as recently as 2010.
Ref: Shidlo, A.; Schroeder, M.; Drescher, J. eds. Sexual conversion therapy: ethical, clinical, and research perspectives 2011

The psychological damage you speak of is due to the hopelessness created by the homosexual culture which claims the individual has no choice.
If this were the case then those in conversion therapy would experience a lessening of such issues instead of a significant increase in symptoms.
 
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Note, I'm not promoting anything, nor am I stating anything here is right or wrong.

I've been thinking on this and I believe there are three possible options.

1) You're born with a preference (most likely)
- e.g. Similar to being born with heterosexuality​
2) An environment condition altered your preference (likely)
- e.g. A negative sexual experience alters my preference
- very sad, but I know a few in this category​
3) You're not born with a preference (least likely)
- e.g. I "choose" a preference
- Least likely, because as a heterosexual man, I don't recall "choosing" heterosexuality, maybe some do, I dunno..​
I think all three, even a combo, CAN BE a cause.
I don't think there is a genetic cause, but I think there are congenital reasons that someone may be gay or bi, such as exposure to certain hormones during certain stages of development. This is especially true for those gays who are extremely effeminate.

Certainly molestation can cause things like frigidity, promiscuity, and lesbianism in women.

And finally, some people are just more sexually amorphous, and given a society that encourages experimentation, they will try things and come to like a broader spectrum of sexual acts and preferences, than they otherwise would in a more traditional society. I heard one such lesbian interview on the Dennis Prager show who admitted it was simply societal opportunities that had led to her becoming a lesbian.
 
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Tinyarch

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there are so many thing wrong in this sentence.
There is no gay agenda
Homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality
You can't promote homosexuality any more than you can promote red hair.
a few states have passed laws banning a an unethical practices IE conversion therapy, which relies of misinformation, the promotion of self hate and techniques that are physical, emotionally and spiritually abusive. Further conversion therapies are not just ineffective but actively harmful and are currently being marketed to target children as young as three years old.

no twin study says this.

and zero evidence to support this idea
Perhaps you've never read Madsen and Kirk's "The Overhauling of Straight America." It's the standard by which the Human Rights Campaign runs it's non-profit PAC. Read it and get back to us.

THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA -  By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill
 
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SilverBear

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Perhaps you've never read Madsen and Kirk's "The Overhauling of Straight America." It's the standard by which the Human Rights Campaign runs it's non-profit PAC. Read it and get back to us.

THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA - By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill
From what i can glean from my Google search this essay has only been read by right wing conspiracy theorists and hate groups.

What is really interesting is that what Kirk and Pill wrote is a pretty basic public relations outline. I doubt you could find a group anywhere that isn't using these principals. Evangelicals are following Kirk and Pill's essay to the letter.

So in review:
There is no gay agenda
Homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality
You can't promote homosexuality any more than you can promote red hair.
a few states have passed laws banning a an unethical practices IE conversion therapy, which relies of misinformation, the promotion of self hate and techniques that are physical, emotionally and spiritually abusive.


Further there is no twin study on sexuality that says anything about relationships with anyone's father.
 
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Tinyarch

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From what i can glean from my Google search this essay has only been read by right wing conspiracy theorists and hate groups.

What is really interesting is that what Kirk and Pill wrote is a pretty basic public relations outline. I doubt you could find a group anywhere that isn't using these principals. Evangelicals are following Kirk and Pill's essay to the letter.

So in review:
There is no gay agenda
Homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality
You can't promote homosexuality any more than you can promote red hair.
a few states have passed laws banning a an unethical practices IE conversion therapy, which relies of misinformation, the promotion of self hate and techniques that are physical, emotionally and spiritually abusive.


Further there is no twin study on sexuality that says anything about relationships with anyone's father.
Yeah. Joseph Goebbels developed the method in the 1930's and convinced an entire nation to hate Jews. Kirk & Madsen learned well and the Human Rights Campaign has taken up the mantel.

I suggest you do more research.
 
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SilverBear

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Yeah. Joseph Goebbels developed the method in the 1930's and convinced an entire nation to hate Jews. Kirk & Madsen learned well and the Human Rights Campaign has taken up the mantel.

I suggest you do more research.
Godwin's law - "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler/Nazis approaches 1.

Corollary - Once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. "
 
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Tinyarch

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Godwin's law - "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler/Nazis approaches 1.

Corollary - Once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned Hitler has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. "
Irrelevant. The fact is still true that Goebbels started the marketing schemes that advertising companies and non-profits like the Human Rights Campaign use today. The fact remains that Kirk and Madsen wrote the agenda and the Human Rights Campaign continues to work the agenda.
I have shown that there is indeed an agenda. You may work hard to disregard this fact. That is your choice. What you cannot do is claim that there is no agenda. You have been proven wrong. Own it and admit it.
 
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ken777

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SnowyMacie

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Irrelevant. The fact is still true that Goebbels started the marketing schemes that advertising companies and non-profits like the Human Rights Campaign use today. The fact remains that Kirk and Madsen wrote the agenda and the Human Rights Campaign continues to work the agenda.

Which part of "I doubt you could find a group anywhere that isn't using these principals" wasn't clear. I also did the google search as well and found it interesting that it's only cited by conservative sources.

I have shown that there is indeed an agenda. You may work hard to disregard this fact. That is your choice. What you cannot do is claim that there is no agenda. You have been proven wrong. Own it and admit it.

I wouldn't exactly call a mostly unknown essay about how LGBT people portray themselves to be more accepted as proof of a "gay agenda". It's a public relations essay, nothing more.
 
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Tinyarch

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Which part of "I doubt you could find a group anywhere that isn't using these principals" wasn't clear. I also did the google search as well and found it interesting that it's only cited by conservative sources.



I wouldn't exactly call a mostly unknown essay about how LGBT people portray themselves to be more accepted as proof of a "gay agenda". It's a public relations essay, nothing more.
You are desperately attempting to marginalize a fundamental paper used in the 1980's to lay out the agenda. Your google search conclusions are merely you making an unsubstantiated excuse for not accepting the facts.
 
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SnowyMacie

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You are desperately attempting to marginalize a fundamental paper used in the 1980's to lay out the agenda.

I wouldn't call an essay that nobody knows about a fundamental paper.

Your google search conclusions are merely you making an unsubstantiated excuse for not accepting the facts.

Then why is it that if this is such a fundamental and important paper for the LGBT community, why can't I find any sources from them and their supporters that talk about it? The book on the other hand, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the ‘90s, was read in the 90s and some groups adopted the public relations recommendations such as "look good" "raise funds" with the entire goal to be accepted as regular people, is by far from a "gay agenda", it's public relations, every organization in the world does that.
 
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