Homosexuality, marriage and the family

[Treasure the Questions]

I consider redemption to mean more than one thing. It is something that happens at different levels.

My faith is about a relationship with Christ and being led by him in my understanding of what it means to be a Christian. I am not interested in dotting my i's and crossing my t's to suit your particular interpretation of Christianity.

Karin

 

[Maccie]

Hi Maccie,

With the greatest respect Maccie that is an assumption. Perhaps we have seen so many similar traumas and situations and continue to see them frequently. When the NT apostles and disciples faced such trauma as their deaths they still knew that Jesus is Lord and they still had faith and the hope of glory and were joyful in the Lord. That’s some source of strength. There are many persecuted Christians doing the same all over the world. I have seen cases where miracles heal and change people so I know God's word is true even if I have also failed to see and healing manifestation on occasions.

No, I wasn't making an assumption. I was expressing an opinion, based on what you three had said. I did put in "perhaps". I am sure what you have said is true about Christian martyrs etc. But there are still Christians who are unable to access, when in deep distress, the faith and hope you have been able to draw on. Unfortunately we are not all strong and rational at all times. Perhaps (please note the "perhaps") you could accept this fact, and appear maybe (please note the maybe) a little more sympathetic to your frail Christian brothers and sisters.

Maccie

 

[SPALATIN]

I am intrigued. Do you know its origins? Did your ancestors worship at or live near a straw church? Did this perhaps refer to a church with a thatched roof, or were people so poor they built their church out of straw?

Karin

Not quite sure of the origins, but many last names came from the profession of the father. It may be that my ancestors built churches made of straw. Unfortunately it wasn't the profession of the family that emigrated here in the late 19th century. They were saloon keepers and whoremasters

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Well you can't say that family was boring, at any rate.

I am intrigued to know if people really built churches out of straw. Sounds like the story of the three little pigs. Maybe they were small ornamental churches. The Germans do make a lot of ornaments out of straw.

 

[SPALATIN]

Well you can't say that family was boring, at any rate.

I am intrigued to know if people really built churches out of straw. Sounds like the story of the three little pigs. Maybe they were small ornamental churches. The Germans do make a lot of ornaments out of straw.

In the US during the late 19th century people lived in Sod houses. I have heard of a house being built from pressed newspaper so maybe it wasn't impossible if that was what they had for a resource. Like I said I am really not sure and we lost touch with our family in Germany.

 

[ahab]

Karin, my friend.

I consider redemption to mean more than one thing. It is something that happens at different levels.

I am sorry, how? Could you give me any scriptures to help me understand that please?

My faith is about a relationship with Christ and being led by him in my understanding of what it means to be a Christian. I am not interested in dotting my i's and crossing my t's to suit your particular interpretation of Christianity.

I have no doubt that faith is indeed a relationship with Christ who 2 Cor 2:14, always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ, but you seem unwilling to address what you wrote. You wrote that we are being redeemed and yet the scripture clearly indicates the past tense, that we have been redeemed. Here is the evidence for you to consider about how we have been redeemed rather than being redeemed Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13-14, 4:5, *** 2:14, 1 Peter 1:18,

Also, that’s hardly my particular interpretation Karin, I am referring to what scripture says not how I interpret it. As to the i's and t's, I have given you the references to back up what I say. If you are so liberal as to ‘gloss over’ what scripture says you may miss what God wants to impart to us . There is a big difference in understanding that we have already been redeemed by Jesus because it means as in (the prodigal son etc) that we have the inheritance. Christ has given us a new birth 1 Peter 1:3 and already blessed us. Ephesians 1:3 we have been raised Colossians 3:1

Karin, if you believe we are in the process of being redeemed then are we also becoming under grace and becoming less under the law?

 

[ahab]

My dear Maccie,

But there are still Christians who are unable to access, when in deep distress, the faith and hope you have been able to draw on.
But this seems to be the same misunderstanding as with Karin. Regardless of understanding (Eph 4:7), "But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. ", Jesus has no more died for me who may or may not have more faith and hope, than anyone else. Its still the same love and death of Jesus.
Unfortunately we are not all strong and rational at all times. Neither am I, it isnt my strength or your strength I am talking about but Jesus Christ. There are times when I feel far from Him but that must be me because He says that He will never leave me. I am willing to believe what He says above what I feel.
You seem to be taking offense to the word of God.

 

[SPALATIN]

Usually when we feel far away from Christ it is because we have fallen short again and we know that we don't deserve what he has done for us.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

<tangent> Just found this

The first church erected in 1750 was called St. John's. It was built of logs and thatched with straw, from which it is still known as 'Straw Church'."

http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/sjlc/history/synopsis.html </tangent>

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I am sorry that your world is so black and white with no shades of grey or colour, ahab and Strohkirch. I am sorry that your imaginations are unable to help you understand what Maccie and I are saying. I know there was a time when I thought a lot like you, and I am so glad Jesus helped me see another way and set me free from all that. Maybe one day Jesus will do the same for you. I pray that day will be soon.

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

I am also sorry Karin that you may be missing much blessing and promise that God intends for you if you truly can&#8217;t read exactly what the scriptures say and are unwilling to recognise it even if it is pointed out to you. Sensibly, on this forum one is normally expected to debate with some reason or evidence to back up what one is saying.

"that your world is so black and white with no shades of grey or colour, ahab and Strohkirch. I am sorry that your imaginations are unable to help you understand what Maccie and I are saying."

It is the truth from Jesus and the word of God that I need to receive not my imaginations.

I know there was a time when I thought a lot like you, and I am so glad Jesus helped me see another way and set me free from all that. Maybe one day Jesus will do the same for you. I pray that day will be soon.

Actually I can see that Jesus has done that for me already, He did it on the cross, I only received it when I believed and saw He had done it, now I see that I am new creation and set free. It was for freedom that Christ has set me free Gal 5:1, the truth has set me free just like Jesus promised John 8:32, 8:36 I can support that with scripture. My imagination is not the truth, Jesus is the truth. If you &#8216;thought like me&#8217;, it must mean that you once knew you were redeemed and now you think you are only being redeemed. That&#8217;s strange because sscripture shows you were right first time.

Blessings

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Ahab, try looking "redeemed" up in a dictionary. Sure in a sense we are redeemed, but there is also an ongoing process. Stop relying on Scripture so totally. When you need the meaning of a word a dictionary is a much better source of information.

I also recommend a couple of recordings of John Bell, a minister of the Church of Scotland, I believe, and someone who really understands the Bible and people, speaking at Greenbelt last year: The Mother Tongues of Heaven should help you understand how to interpret scripture better and The Loud Language of Need should help you have a better understanding of how to apply you knowledge of scripture to the human condition. You can order them from here http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/shop/talks/search.php?year=2003

I don't mind answering sensible questions with brief comments and occasioanlly longer explanations, but I don't see why I should try to write volumes to explain my views when books already exist that expalin what you ask far better than I do, especially when it is not a matter of you trying to understand, but merely insisting I conform to your personal interpretation of scripture. I am quite convinced Jesus would disagree with you on numerous points and if you want to know which ones just re-read the posts I've already made there is enough explanation there for anyone who has eyes to see it.

 

[Maccie]

Usually when we feel far away from Christ it is because we have fallen short again and we know that we don't deserve what he has done for us.

Strawchurch and Ahab. I am trying very hard to contain the extreme emotion and anger I feel at your comments. Let's get this quite clear, shall we?

IF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING ABOUT A MENTAL BREAKDOWN, THEN YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE, SO PLEASE SHUT UP AND GROW UP.

I am not going to write any more on this subject. I will only be rude to you. I am only thankful I don't know you personally.

Maccie

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Having seen that statement picked out from ramblings which cause my eyes and brain to blur, Maccie, I can only say that this shows a poor understanding of the gospel message as well as a poor understanding of mental illness, Maccie.

The whole point of God's grace is that none of us ever deserve it! Sin can make us feel far from God, but we continue to sin and yet we can still feel close to God at times, too.

Mental illness means that we don't think straight, we are incapable of thinking straight. Just like when we break our leg we can't walk on it until it heals. I think some teaching by some churches can prevent us from thinking straight, too. Some churches pile us high with false guilt and distort God's grace. Such teaching contributes to depression and mental breakdown in many cases. Just like if someone tells us we need to run faster and faster: we eventually collapse physically. People who tell us we have a God who asks us to jump through more and more hoops can cause us to collapse mentally.

The bottom line is that we are all sinners. If someone is a Christian they recognise that fact and it goes without saying.

Anyone who has a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus will want to please him most of the time.

That also goes without saying.

It isn't easy to live God's way and we all fall short. Therefore we need to encourage each other and remind each other that God loves us anyway, that God's grace is sufficient for each of us, and that God readily forgives us. We are to encourage and build up our fellow Christians and leave conviction of sin to the Holy Spirit.

Only when someone is blatantly, continually and unrepentantly committing serious sin should we go to the church leadership and bring this to their attention and leave it to them to decide how best to deal with it.

Jesus never called us to go around pointing out people's sins continually and the anonimity of a message board is not an excuse to do so.

Likewise, there are many wise and gifted teachers in churches and that is where we get our teaching.

Exchanging ideas on a message board is one thing, learning about other points of view and trying to understand where others are coming from, even if we can't agree, is another good way to use these boards, but trying to force our opinions on others is not.

If a person feels called to teach, then they should train to do so and see if anyone willingly comes to hear their teaching.

So statements such as

I am also sorry Karin that you may be missing much blessing and promise that God intends for you if you truly can’t read exactly what the scriptures say and are unwilling to recognise it even if it is pointed out to you.

I am quite capable of reading exactly what Scripture says, but the thing is to discern how to interpret what we read. I am also capable of recognising a great deal that is pointed out to me and aslo able to discern quite well if it is likely to be something Jesus would say or agree with or not.

As to talking about imagination, this was referring to imagining how things are for other people, not to understanding scripture, although I would say imagination helps us understand the beauty of the poetry in the Psalms and can help in other areas, too.

 

[ahab]

My dear friend Karin,

Ahab, try looking "redeemed" up in a dictionary

try looking up redeem in a dictionary. You will see that redeemed is the past tense and redeemed is what the NT tells us we are. If we dont grasp this we may not grasp that Gal 4:4 having been redeemed we receive the full rights of sons, and heirs.

I am well aware of John Bell&#8217;s teaching, and I suggest as with Jerome Murphy O&#8217;Connor you try not to limit yourself to a few teachers and preachers as we discussed before but read and listen more widely, try David Pawson, Derek Prince, Colin Urquhart.

"Sure in a sense we are redeemed".

Well sure I said thats possible but it isnt what scripture actually says, scripture actually says we have been redeemed, Jesus isnt still on the cross, He has already been raised and rules and reigns in heaven. I am not still being redeemed by Jesus, I am redeemed by Him. As to what is the nature of redemption is a another story (and still of topic) ..from the curse of the law, Gal 3:13, to be blessed so as to receive the Holy Spirit, Gal 3:14.from and empty life to faith and hope 1 Peter 1, and born again. I am born again not being born again. I am sure that if you pray that if you ask the Holy Spirit God will reveal to you but read carefully what the scripture says and receive and interpret that rather than imagine what it says and try and receive something from what it doesn&#8217;t say.

I don't mind answering sensible questions with brief comments

Well thank you that very gracious of you, and nice of you to spare so much time on te forum.

insisting I conform to your personal interpretation of scripture

I haven&#8217;t really started to give you my interpretation of the scripture about redemption Karin, I have been talking about what the scripture says, unless you mean that interpreting scripture is what one feels it should say rather than what it does say.

I am quite convinced Jesus would disagree with you on numerous points and if you want to know which ones just re-read the posts I've already made there is enough explanation there for anyone who has eyes to see it.

How come when I am quoting from the apostles and disciples of Jesus who recorded what Jesus said and taught? How can Jesus disagree with Jesus?
Jesus talked about redemption coming at end times Luke 21:28, I assumed you would have mentioned this. Sadly you havent really given any scripture to support what you say. The scriptures aren&#8217;t just words to prompt us into imagining some ideas, but the word is living and active and divides soul and spirit and imparts to us revelation of God and His Kingdom will and purposes.

An interesting debate with you Karin, blessings to you

 

[Treasure the Questions]

I am well aware of John Bell’s teaching, and I suggest as with Jerome Murphy O’Connor you try not to limit yourself to a few teachers and preachers as we discussed before but read and listen more widely, try David Pawson, Derek Prince, Colin Urquhart.

As it happens I know about all three. Someone insisted on giving me a book by Derek Prince, and it gave me the creeps as well as seeming most unchristian and speculative. It was about generational curses, and Jesus was quite clear that people are not cursed because of things their parents or ancestors have done. I would say the Holy Spirit warned me off that book. Colin Urqhart sounds good until you think about it. I was taken in by what he said when I was young, but realisenow it is not the true gospel and most unhelpful. I have also heard David Pawson on tape and was not impressed. I know people who know these people and admire them, but I cannot for the life of me see why.

I have read pretty widely and find John Bell immensely refreshing as well as holding true to the message of the Gospel. I look forward to hearing him live in a couple of weeks time. He has been a real tonic to my soul!

 

[Treasure the Questions]

As to redemption, let me try again. We have been redeemed and so have our relationship with God restored. That's fine.

We are also in the process of being redeemed. The marred image of God within us takes a lifetime and more to restore to its true beauty.

sorry, this idea has become so obvious to me, but perhaps it is new to you.

 

[ahab]

Maccie,

I am so sorry that you feel angry. Not long ago I had a family death and the grief is also so terrible, but it never changed anything about what SLStrohkirch wrote. In fact such things were an encouragement to me as nothing could console me except the hope of glory in Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of Heaven where there are no more tears and no more death and suffering. I pray that God will strengthen and encourage you and bring healing. God Bless you Maccie.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

How come when I am quoting from the apostles and disciples of Jesus who recorded what Jesus said and taught? How can Jesus disagree with Jesus?

First of all, I wasn't referring to redemption in this instance. This was a comment refering to your comments in general.

Secondly, you usually put your own particular spin on anything you do quote.

Of course Jesus doesn't disagree with himself. I would say you misunderstand what Jesus says in some instances.

Take what Maccie quoted, for instance

Usually when we feel far away from Christ it is because we have fallen short again and we know that we don't deserve what he has done for us.

Not sure if that was you or Strohkirch, but some of what you say comes across in the same vein.

Jesus never said, "kick a dog when it's down". He was always gentle and patient with those who needed gentleness and patience. He quoted from Isaiah identifying with the one who does not crush bruised reeds.

Where have you shown patience and gentleness with Maccie, even though what she has said suggests she might be a bruised reed?

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

We have been redeemed and so have our relationship with God restored. That's fine

.
Well thats what the scripture says. Isnt that what I have been saying?

We are also in the process of being redeemed. The marred image of God within us takes a lifetime and more to restore to its true beauty.sorry, this idea has become so obvious to me, but perhaps it is new to you.

Very new indeed Karin. So you say we are redeemed and being redeemed at the same time. Well which? I agree with you that we need to remain in Christ Jesus to receive that redemption but the redemption has already happened. You still havent addressed any of the scripture I quoted. Why?

As to the 'marred' image of God? I thought God is love. Do you mean Satan and evil as marred? Sorry but I need to test this can you give some of God&#8217;s word, some scripture, to help me understand explain this as It sounds false to me.