Homosexuality, marriage and the family

[SPALATIN]

Scott, you do sometimes write a load of rubbish! I respect you very much for your theological views, but psychologically, you are a mere babe in aarms! Psychologists and Psychiatrists everywhere are inundated with people who have problems relating to guilt. Guilt that their parents split up because of something they did. (Which of course, they didn't!) Guilt because they were unable to prevent someone dying. Guilt because they thought their parents didn't want them. Guilt because ................. well, it just goes on and on.

And I could quote you some "prayers" than can be prayed over people who are ill, and which make them feel totally guilty! Although they have nothing to be ashamed of.

Come on, Scott - get into the real world!!

Maccie

Of course not don't be rediculous. Guilt is something that is very real but as I said before in my post prior to this Guilt is a choice we make. Sometimes it is a conscious choice and sometimes it is an unconscious choice.

Children who feel guilty over their parents split is an unconscious choice only because of a lack of understanding that Mommy and Daddy are not splitting up because of something they did. Now with proper counseling these children will learn that nothing they did brought about the divorce of their parents.

The Church is to blame for some misguided guilt, but part of what the Pastor or Priest is supposed to do is preach a sermon that properly distinguishes law and gospel to condemn us of sin and show us that if repentant we have salvation at hand.

For most people though GUILT is a control issue. People will manipulate others by attempting to make them feel guilt. My own mother does this to meand she learned it from her mother who did it to her. It is when we say to them "I'm sorry you feel that way, but the truth of the matter is. . ." and spell out for them what they are doing you make the choice not to feel guilty about what they are saying.

 

[vossler]

Vossler, I thank you for your thoughtful post and shall do my best to explain myself in my response. I’m sure we have much common ground, beginning with faith in and love for the Lord Jesus Christ himself, but the language we use is very different and I think the way we view God has some distinct differences, too.

To pray and read the Bible in a meditative fashion and to put into practice what we have discovered about what it means to follow Christ is fundamental if we are to develop a relationship with the living Christ and to grow in the understanding and expression of our faith. Such things are essential to help me and many others cope with life’s struggles.

However, faith and reading scripture won’t stop us from experiencing pain and difficulties. Moreover, trust in God develops over time, as does faith. A deep trust in God and a strong faith are not something we acquire the moment we become Christians.

Scripture has its place, but also its limits. One thing that angers me is when people use Bible verses as if they were some kind of panacea. This seems like superstition and magic spells to me as well as being like offering a flimsy straw to a drowning man. If I know the person well and understand it is their way of trying to help when they feel useless I may not feel angry, but in general I feel it is very wrong.

As I have said, I do think prayer and scripture reading are very helpful under normal circumstances, but when things go wrong we need something else. Sometimes we will need to be directed to Bible verses with relevant helpful advice and sometimes we will need to change our ways, but this will not help nor be the case in all circumstances.

There will be times for many people when they feel they can no longer cope or when they become very depressed. At times like this God can seem very distant and the person may even be so angry with God that they wish he did not exist. If someone has had what is commonly called a “mental breakdown” they can’t think properly anyway. It is called a mental illness. When all seems bleak and you feel numb and worthless it is hard to trust God or to hold on to hope. At such times quoting scripture will be like giving sawdust to a starving man and telling them to pray will be like telling a man whose legs have gone numb and useless to run!

This exchange began as a discussion on how to help people undergoing problems in their marriage and/or family life. Good teaching from in churches about these things would be helpful, but some teaching on these matters in some churches is decidedly unhelpful, so this is not an easy answer.

My view of the church is a body of broken men and women (and children) joined together in Christ. We must be aware of our infirmities, our limp, our running sores etc and not shun others when we see that they suffer from such things. We are in the process of being redeemed by Christ, but we are not yet perfect. We should welcome others whatever their infirmities and be willing to support them uncritically. A church should be a place where people can come knowing they will be accepted and listened to and not judged or criticised. One common reason a bad situation can seem impossible is because the person feels isolated and with no one to turn to. People need to know that they can go to a church and be open and vulnerable in complete safety. People need to know that when someone in church asks how they are that person is really interested in their answer. People need to know that the people in the church will be real and honest with them and not say, "you should...", or "you shouldn’t...", but "when I had a similar experience this helped me and I realised this" so to speak.

Karin, I agree with most everything you said. I can see there is much common ground between us.

I will only speak to one area where there may be an important difference worth noting. You stated "I do think prayer and scripture reading are very helpful under normal circumstances, but when things go wrong we need something else." I would submit that when things go wrong that is when prayer is the most important thing we could do, draw close to God. In addition, we need the prayers of those close to us, family, friends, our church to cover us and keep us strong. Scripture is a bedrock of prayer because it contains the promises of God and so it should always be called upon in times of distress. I understand that sometimes we're not able and that is where family, friends, and our church step in as you talked about near the end of this section.

I’m afraid I profoundly disagree with you here, Vossler. When prayers go unanswered it may not be anything to do with us. We need to get out of this way of thinking that we are fundamentally bad people and when things don’t turn out well it is our fault. If you are suggesting that God has a different view of things than we have then I agree with that.

I don’t believe God causes bad things to happen to us, as a rule, but I do believe that he is with us in bad situations and he may not change that situation. Jesus, Immanuel (God with us) helps us through the difficult times. Even in our bleakest hour he reaches out a supportive and helping hand to us, offers us a hug of encouragement, although we are not always aware of it. These experiences can make better people of us if we can work with God in them, but this doesn’t always happen, or it may take time for us to realise how God was there for us and how we have benefited. It is wrong to teach people that bad things happen because they lack faith or haven’t prayed hard enough, or are sinful.

We are all sinful, so if sin was the reason we should all be experiencing bad things continually. All human beings are made in the image of God and were made fundamentally good by God. However, we are broken and imperfect people still in the process of being redeemed by Jesus, so we are bound to get things wrong at times. Sometimes we have to live with the consequences of our mistakes, God doesn’t wave a magic wand even if we repent. We do need to be aware that we are capable of sin and we do need to ask God’s forgiveness and check that we are still in step with him from time to time, but it is not healthy for this to be our focus.

Above all people need reminding that Jesus came that we might have abundant life. People need to know that they are made in the image of God and fundamentally good at the core of their being. People need to know that God sees that they have great potential and, if they will let him, Jesus will help them fulfil that potential by his redemptive work in their lives.

When life is a mess and we are all too painfully aware of our sin we need to know that Jesus is working on the canvass of our lives like someone lovingly restoring a dark and dingy Old Master, ravaged by time, so that, bit by bit the true colours and stunning beauty gradually become apparent.

When we cannot even grasp this we need people just to be there offering silent support, or maybe a hug, until we can cling feebly to words of encouragement.

Again, I don't think the differences we have here are all that significant either, I mostly agree.

The area where I think a fundamental difference does exist is in the statement: People need to know that they are made in the image of God and fundamentally good at the core of their being." While I would agree with the first part in that we are made in the image of God, but we are most certainly not, at the core of our being, fundamentally good. Adam and Eve changed that by introducing sin into the world. Yes, Christians claim Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and how He came to wash away our sins and redeem us with His blood (praise the Lord). Romans 8:2 says: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." This however, doesn't mean we are now exempt from the law of sin, it just means we have a higher power, the Holy Spirit, to call upon in our daily walk. We must daily choose to walk in the Spirit in order to overcome our sinful desires. Luke 9:23 "And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Then and only then will sin lose its grip and we will truly be free to be all the God has planned for us to be.

BTW, I like the part at the end where we hug each other and support each other in love. Here is a hug and a prayer for my sister in Christ. May God Bless you in all that you do.

Reno

 

[SPALATIN]

Of course not don't be rediculous. Guilt is something that is very real but as I said before in my post prior to this Guilt is a choice we make. Sometimes it is a conscious choice and sometimes it is an unconscious choice.

Children who feel guilty over their parents split is an unconscious choice only because of a lack of understanding that Mommy and Daddy are not splitting up because of something they did. Now with proper counseling these children will learn that nothing they did brought about the divorce of their parents.

The Church is to blame for some misguided guilt, but part of what the Pastor or Priest is supposed to do is preach a sermon that properly distinguishes law and gospel to condemn us of sin and show us that if repentant we have salvation at hand.

For most people though GUILT is a control issue. People will manipulate others by attempting to make them feel guilt. My own mother does this to meand she learned it from her mother who did it to her. It is when we say to them "I'm sorry you feel that way, but the truth of the matter is. . ." and spell out for them what they are doing you make the choice not to feel guilty about what they are saying.

I know of a young man whose Mother died in a terrible car accident. That very morning he and his mother argued about something and it never got resolved. He has felt guilt about that for years. His initial guilt was unconscious because he knew that he could never resolve that with her. However, he never sought counseling for it and now he carries on that guilt consciously and it has hurt some of his personal relationships. GUILT is a choice whether conscious or unconscious.

The Psychologists and Psychiatrists of this world will not necessarily seek to heal these people all the time either. They too will feed this guilt choice in people to get them to come back for more therapy. The only one who can help is God.

 

[Maccie]

The Psychologists and Psychiatrists of this world will not necessarily seek to heal these people all the time either. They too will feed this guilt choice in people to get them to come back for more therapy. The only one who can help is God.

I think you have a very jaundiced, prejudiced and false opinion of Psychologists and Psychiatrists. None I have encountered have in any way "fed the guilt", nor have any that I have worked with. Why should they want people to come back for more therapy? There is a long enough waiting list as it is in England, under the NHS. And if God isn't there, or isn't choosing to help, then Psychologists and Psychiatrists can work wonders! And they do, whether their patients are Christians, Muslims or atheists.

Maccie

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

Like Vossler there is much I totally agree with you in your posts and I accept that although Vossler and I seem to have a similar language, it may be slightly different from yours.
However if I can help there does seem to be a spiritual element you may be missing.

Whilst I think we both had established that faith and reading scripture won’t stop us from experiencing pain and difficulties, it may in fact throw more potential pain and difficulties the more faith we have as spiritual warfare and physical worldly persecution are both very real. The point about the scriptures surely is that we are to receive from them.

One thing that angers me is when people use Bible verses as if they were some kind of panacea. This seems like superstition and magic spells to me as well as being like offering a flimsy straw to a drowning man.

I am not sure what you are talking about. Do you believe God is supernatural?
Surely the scripture that Vossler quotes is the truth and the challenge for us is to understand and receive from it, not suggest we shouldn’t quote the truth because we cant understand it fully. This thread tangent seems to have started because you and Maccie have reacted to some scripture. Jesus talked a lot about the promises of answered prayer to those who ask in faith.

There will be times for many people when they feel they can no longer cope or when they become very depressed. At times like this God can seem very distant..

I am not sure I can cope without the power of the Holy Spirit as it is and I wouldn’t say I was under that much pressure. Do you ultimately trust and believe in yourself and your own strength or ultimately trust and believe in God? I know I am going to die in this world at some point but I never get so depressed I lose hope. I would say that scripture is very much THE encouragement when times are at their bleakest because I believe that Jesus proved He loved me when He died on the cross for me so its finished and done and He says He will never leave or abandon me if I remain in Him. So the harder the circumstances and the tougher the times the more I quote God’s word and therefore God’s promises back to Him.

My view of the church is a body of broken men and women (and children) joined together in Christ.

I would say that the church is the body of Christ and with Christ in us we have been broken. Our lives are no longer our own but belong to Christ. We are called to be a blessing to others and to follow Jesus. By the power of the Holy Spirit we are not all physically infirm, limp, or with running sores, and spiritually we have the power of Christ Jesus in us. When we see others suffer we can try and help them physically and we can always help them spiritually if they are willing.
We are in the process of being redeemed by Christ, but we are not yet perfect. If we dont expect healing it is more unlikely we will see it.
Surely we have been redeemed by His blood whilst we believe and trust in Him. His blood will avail for us on the day of judgement.

We should welcome others whatever their infirmities and be willing to support them uncritically

.
I agree but if we tell them of God’s purposes for them it may be that they are sinning so we are helping them by telling them the truth, hopefully they will see Christ in us and ask us rather than we tell them.

A church should be a place where people can come knowing they will be accepted and listened to and not judged or criticised.

A church isn’t a place it is a body of believers, though I agree with your approach, primarily people need to know they are loved by God not told they are sinners, Jesus came to save not condemn, but they also dont need to go to church to be told God is happy that they can carry on sinning if it makes them feel better.

God doesn’t wave a magic wand even if we repent.

A magic wand??

We do need to be aware that we are capable of sin and we do need to ask God’s forgiveness and check that we are still in step with him from time to time, but it is not healthy for this to be our focus.

Well yes we do need to repent and turn away form sin, it is part of our walk with Christ. Whats the problem with that? That is part of the abundant life we have in Him.

 

[SPALATIN]

I think you have a very jaundiced, prejudiced and false opinion of Psychologists and Psychiatrists. None I have encountered have in any way "fed the guilt", nor have any that I have worked with. Why should they want people to come back for more therapy? There is a long enough waiting list as it is in England, under the NHS. And if God isn't there, or isn't choosing to help, then Psychologists and Psychiatrists can work wonders! And they do, whether their patients are Christians, Muslims or atheists.

Maccie

Maccie,

Whether I am or not is not the issue here. I don't put a lot of faith in

Guilt is a choice whether conscious or unconscious. We are sinners and when we sin we are guilty. That guilt is justified, however no one human being can make you feel guilty it is your decision by the stimulus put forth to make you feel that way i.e. Mother who doesn't think you write or call enough. That is their complaint and they just really want you to recognize their complaint, but if you choose to feel guilty over it than you have let them control you.

 

[Maccie]

I don't know Karin or her situations, past or present, but to be honest I think both she and I are talking about experiences, traumas and situations that perhaps Ahab, Vossler and SLStrohkirch have not experienced. Their faith has been a source of strength to them, and they have never felt the absence of God. Whilst my faith, and possibly Karin's, or the faith of her friends, has been strong, but the particular mental, emotional and physical illnesses suffered have been so traumatic as to render the sufferers unable to draw on a similar source of strength.

So perhaps we could end it there? And perhaps we could all learn that there is a time and a place for Scripture, and a time and a place for loving silence.

Maccie

 

[Polycarp1]

I know of a young man whose Mother died in a terrible car accident. That very morning he and his mother argued about something and it never got resolved. He has felt guilt about that for years. His initial guilt was unconscious because he knew that he could never resolve that with her. However, he never sought counseling for it and now he carries on that guilt consciously and it has hurt some of his personal relationships. GUILT is a choice whether conscious or unconscious.

The Psychologists and Psychiatrists of this world will not necessarily seek to heal these people all the time either. They too will feed this guilt choice in people to get them to come back for more therapy. The only one who can help is God.

Pardon me for butting in, but your post just triggered a very personal concern for me. I just returned from visiting my "son" (former ward, and son in spirit) and his family. And one of the things that he and his oldest boy (nine, compassionate and insightful beyond his years) are working on, very subliminally, is his nephew (the boy's cousin and closest friend) who is 11. His mother experienced a very difficult pregnancy with him, which ruined her health, and she died when the boy was four. And all his life he's been carrying a burden of guilt that he "killed his mother" in consequence of it -- an inner feeling that just came out in the last year. I'll ask your prayers for G-- [for good reasons, I don't want to post his name], and for my boy Chris and his son Brandon as they try to help him.

 

[vossler]

Polycarp,

Consider it done! Thanks for sharing, sometimes we forget that we are called to lift each other up in prayer.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Karin, I agree with most everything you said. I can see there is much common ground between us.

I will only speak to one area where there may be an important difference worth noting. You stated "I do think prayer and scripture reading are very helpful under normal circumstances, but when things go wrong we need something else." I would submit that when things go wrong that is when prayer is the most important thing we could do, draw close to God.

Perhaps after "I do think prayer and scripture reading are very helpful under normal circumstances, but when things go wrong we need something else." I should have added as well, assuming we are stil able to do those things for themselves.

The area where I think a fundamental difference does exist is in the statement: People need to know that they are made in the image of God and fundamentally good at the core of their being." While I would agree with the first part in that we are made in the image of God, but we are most certainly not, at the core of our being, fundamentally good. Adam and Eve changed that by introducing sin into the world. Yes, Christians claim Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and how He came to wash away our sins and redeem us with His blood (praise the Lord). Romans 8:2 says: "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." This however, doesn't mean we are now exempt from the law of sin, it just means we have a higher power, the Holy Spirit, to call upon in our daily walk. We must daily choose to walk in the Spirit in order to overcome our sinful desires. Luke 9:23 "And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Then and only then will sin lose its grip and we will truly be free to be all the God has planned for us to be.

BTW, I like the part at the end where we hug each other and support each other in love. Here is a hug and a prayer for my sister in Christ. May God Bless you in all that you do.

Reno

I'm not surprised that you disagree with me here, but my own recent reading of both scripture and some books touching on theology lead me to think that the idea that we are basically sinful, which stems from Augustine of Hippo who must have had a lot of issues to deal with and who had a classical Greek education, is not as reliable as all that, but was adopted by the Roman church when it had become a state church and wanted to control people. Earlier Christians such as the Desert Fathers and Mothers had a much more positive view of human nature, which was based on the fact that God saw that his creation, including human beings, was good. Sin mars that goodness but not so deeply that we are basically depraved as Augustine said.

If you read about the early church Fathers you will find this idea only became widespread after Augustine. If you read about Augustine's life before conversion you can see why he would feel his basic nature was a depraved one. If you read about church history you can see that once the church became in cahoots with the state it became manipulative and controlling.

There are many Christians who hold the view that people are fundamentally good and this view is firmly based on scripture, too. This discovery has been extremely beneficial to the development of my faith. Since realising that conservative evangelicalism was not the only true form of Christianity my faith has become more real, more an integral part of me and my relationship with Jesus so much better than before. All the false guilt has been lifted from me - I only have genuine guilt to deal with now, which is quite enough.

I agree we need to deal with our sin and need the Holy Spirit to do this, and I am far from without sin, but I know God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is with me far more certainly than ever before.

Ahab, I don't feel you have fully understood what I was trying to say. Not everything I said was based on my own recent experience or even my own experience, but it was based on reality. Perhaps you didn't read what I said about faith developing gradually. You are entitled to your views, but I cannot agree with them and I think some of your attitudes would be extremely unhelpful.

You ask questions at times after quoting exactly what my answer is - this seems strange to me.

You also put your own spin on what I say and make assumptions at times.

We shall have to agree to differ. I think I could spend forever trying to explain things to you and get nowhere.

Polycarp, I pray that God will grant Chris and Brandon and all involved the wisdom and patience to help G deal with this guilt and be freed from it. I also pray God will be at work in G's life himself and will bring about the necessary healing.

God bless

Karin

 

[SPALATIN]

I'm not surprised that you disagree with me here, but my own recent reading of both scripture and some books touching on theology lead me to think that the idea that we are basically sinful, which stems from Augustine of Hippo who must have had a lot of issues to deal with and who had a classical Greek education, is not as reliable as all that, but was adopted by the Roman church when it had become a state church and wanted to control people. Earlier Christians such as the Desert Fathers and Mothers had a much more positive view of human nature, which was based on the fact that God saw that his creation, including human beings, was good. Sin mars that goodness but not so deeply that we are basically depraved as Augustine said.

So you believe that there is innate goodness in us? Unlike Adam and Eve who were created into a perfect world and then when given a choice between having fellowship w/ God and being their own God they chose the latter. The problem is they were misled and didn't become their own God, but a slave to sin.

As sinners we fall short of God's glory. We are not innately good anymore as we are born of sin. We are just as GUILTY of the same sin that Adam and Eve committed. If you need any proof that we are sinful just look at a child between the ages of 1 1/2 - 3 and you will see the selfishness within them. They are going to push your limits to see how far they can get.

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Augustine of Hippo was correct in his assertion that we are depraved human beings without God. Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themself and trying to justify themselves by the world's eyes and not God's.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

You are entitled to your opinion, SLStrohkirch, and I am entitled to mine. If God wants me to think other than I do I'm sure he'll let me know, but for now I believe I am on a path on which God has set my feet.

Is Straw church your real name?

 

[SPALATIN]

You are entitled to your opinion, SLStrohkirch, and I am entitled to mine. If God wants me to think other than I do I'm sure he'll let me know, but for now I believe I am on a path on which God has set my feet.

Is Straw church your real name?

It is not a matter of opinion here. It is a matter of truth. You are only fooling yourself if you believe that human beings are innately good. We are sinners and with Christ we are forgiven sinners, but still we sin and need forgiveness.

Yes, my last name translated from German is Straw Church.

 

[vossler]

There are many Christians who hold the view that people are fundamentally good and this view is firmly based on scripture, too.

Karin,

If you could, please give me the Scriptures that back up this view.

Thanks

 

[Treasure the Questions]

It is not a matter of which Scripture, but how we choose to interpret Scripture. If you think Augustine was right I doubt I can persuade you otherwise. Personally I have come to doubt that he was such a great theologian. I think the reason many of his ideas were adopted by the church in Rome was political expedience, not theological correctness, but so many centuries later his opinion is accepted without question by many.

Unfortunately my reading has not been very methodical and I haven't made notes. Perhaps I should start to do so. I understand John Wesley preferred Pelagius' view of human nature and capacity for goodness to Augustine's, although I think both Wesley and Pelagius were wrong to think we could ever totally stop sinning, which seems to be what both were suggesting, but perhaps people have misunderstood what they really meant. Pelagius, being a Celtic Christian and influenced by the Desert Mothers and Fathers believed in the fundamental goodness of human nature, as I understand it.

I think Calvin may have thought differently about human nature than Augustine, too, but I can't be sure. I know I was surprised by something he thought as I don't agree with his interpretation of "elect".

As far as I have grasped it, even those who believed that the Adam and Eve myth (in the sense of a story that expresses a fundamental truth) was probably literally true, did not all believe in the depravity of human nature. This belief exists only when people are influenced by Augustine, whether conciously or unconciously. Those of us who see it merely as a myth are less likely to agree with Augustine.

I don't think Martin Luther questioned fundamental Catholic theology, only corrupt practices, so churches influenced by him may continue to accept Augustine's ideas. It is only when people look to Christian faith before Augustine that they see that the first Chrisitians did not believe in the depravity of humankind and considered human beings to be made good and in the image of God, remaining fundamentally so at the core, but very much flawed without redemption through Christ. This can also happen when people do not let Augustine influence their understanding of the Bible

This is why non-Christians are capable of good and selfless acts and sometimes put Christians to shame in these areas. This is why the most callous murderer can still love his mother or granny or children.

Karin

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Yes, my last name translated from German is Straw Church.

I am intrigued. Do you know its origins? Did your ancestors worship at or live near a straw church? Did this perhaps refer to a church with a thatched roof, or were people so poor they built their church out of straw?

Karin

 

[ahab]

Hi Karin,

I have been trying to understand what you seem to be saying about quoting Bible verses being a ‘panacea’ and ‘superstition’ and ‘magic’ You wrote a few posts back

However, we are broken and imperfect people still in the process of being redeemed by Jesus,

Is that exactly what the word says? I agree that when I was born again of the Spirit I became a new creation and I have been crucified with Christ, Paul says this doesnt he? Surely we have been redeemed by Jesus. I know I have and Paul says "It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God, that is our righteouness, holiness and redemption" 1 Cor 1:30. I am an heir and a co-heir with Christ Rom 8:17 I know my God will meet all my needs Phil 4:19, I have been given fullness in Christ Col 2:10. He is able to do immeasurably more than we all ask or imagine Eph 3:20.
Well I personally knew when I believed. This isnt just some words or magic formulae but living an active of what Jesus has already done for us however we feel about it from one day to the next. Praise God! Thank you Jesus!

 

[ahab]

Hi Maccie,

I don't know Karin or her situations, past or present, but to be honest I think both she and I are talking about experiences, traumas and situations that perhaps Ahab, Vossler and SLStrohkirch have not experienced.

With the greatest respect Maccie that is an assumption. Perhaps we have seen so many similar traumas and situations and continue to see them frequently. When the NT apostles and disciples faced such trauma as their deaths they still knew that Jesus is Lord and they still had faith and the hope of glory and were joyful in the Lord. That’s some source of strength. There are many persecuted Christians doing the same all over the world. I have seen cases where miracles heal and change people so I know God's word is true even if I have also failed to see and healing manifestation on occasions.

 

[Treasure the Questions]

Hi Karin,

Surely we have been redeemed by Jesus.

What do you mean by redeemed? Did you read my description of the painting being restored and the rest of that bit? That is what I mean. The marred image of God in each of us is gradually restored and we begin to fulfil our God-given potential, with Jesus' help.

However, we are broken and imperfect people

Is that exactly what the word says?

That is how I choose to describe the effect of sin in our lives.

 

[ahab]

Good morning to you Karin,

What do you mean by redeemed? Did you read my description of the painting being restored and the rest of that bit?

No I was refering to what you wrote that we are in the process of being redeemed, not what redemption was. I am asking whether you have received correctly what God is imparting as the testimony is that we have already been redeemed rather than in the process. I would be delighted to debate with you what redemption is, subsequently if you wish.

That is how I choose to describe the effect of sin in our lives.

Yes I agree that we are set free by grace not to sin is a process, but we are not incomplete by our imperfection but complete by Christ’s perfection..yes? He has still redeemed us by His blood if we have Him as Lord. Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God, that is our righteouness, holiness and redemption" 1 Cor 1:30. I am an heir and a co-heir with Christ Rom 8:17 I know my God will meet all my needs Phil 4:19, I have been given fullness in Christ Col 2:10. He is able to do immeasurably more than we all ask or imagine Eph 3:20.