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The notion that "homosexuality is a sin" rather depends on how you're defining homosexuality.
David.
Here are some verses from scripture that, have with in them good definitions from which we may work.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Lev 20:13)
I think the law of the Old Covenant gives us a pretty good working definition of homosexuality. Still all sex outside of marriage (between a man and a women) is SIN. Therefore ALL homosexual sex is sinful, just like ALL heterosexual sex outside of marriage.
Those "Christians" who defend and excuse homosexual sexual relationships are defending SIN. It is no different than me defending premarital sexual relationships or adulterous sexual relationships.
To defend tell the homosexual that he/she is ok as they are and that they need not repent is to speak sweet words that may condemn them to hell. It is no different than me telling an aduterer that what he is doing is ok and that God understands, because it was God who created him non-monogamous. It is a lie.
Coram Deo,
Kenith
Actually christainity is about Christ.OP:
Gah? Another homosexuality post? How many do we need? Maybe this was posted before the thread where a homosexual Christian testimonied that he'd been driven away from the Lord by THIS FORUM!
Yeah...homosexuality is a sin ... as is lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, lust ... now tell me you've never been victim to one of them? We are all sinners! All sins are equal and forgiveable (but one) in the eyes of our Saviour. Why do we have to go on judging when we know we shouldn't!
It's sad how many times i've posted this exact same thing. I think i'm gonna just cut and paste it from now on.
Christianity: it's all about the love!
OP:
Gah? Another homosexuality post? How many do we need? Maybe this was posted before the thread where a homosexual Christian testimonied that he'd been driven away from the Lord by THIS FORUM!
Yeah...homosexuality is a sin ... as is lying, stealing, adultery, greed, jealousy, lust ... now tell me you've never been victim to one of them? We are all sinners! All sins are equal and forgiveable (but one) in the eyes of our Saviour. Why do we have to go on judging when we know we shouldn't!
It's sad how many times i've posted this exact same thing. I think i'm gonna just cut and paste it from now on.
Christianity: it's all about the love!
Adulterers are not trying to push justify their sin's. They usually hide them.OObi: However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them".
for the most part liars don't get picked on. And I don't recall coming across a thread all about singling out that particular sin.
"Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone".
they are already being left alone, aren't they?
Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be".
that's understandable.. I sure won't be saying anything like that once they find the person who killed a little girl from Detroit.
However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation.
that's understandable. I have no desire to single out this group of people and I don't understand why there are people who do.
Here are some verses from scripture that, have with in them good definitions from which we may work.
Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. (Lev 18:22)
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.(Lev 20:13)
I think the law of the Old Covenant gives us a pretty good working definition of homosexuality.
Still all sex outside of marriage (between a man and a women) is SIN. Therefore ALL homosexual sex is sinful, just like ALL heterosexual sex outside of marriage.
Those "Christians" who defend and excuse homosexual sexual relationships are defending SIN. It is no different than me defending premarital sexual relationships or adulterous sexual relationships.
- When it comes to non-Christian homosexuals, I'm not convinced that Biblical morality is meant to apply.
- All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. So why single out one particular sin and make an issue of that?
- There are sins that seem far worse than two people having sexual intercourse. There are people out there killing and raping and stealing and lying and deceiving, and committing all manner of atrocities against their fellow men and women. Let's get a sense of proportion.
- I'm pretty sure that the best way of interpreting the verses in the Bible that speak of homosexual sex, is a pretty straightforward interpretation. But, there is enough debate among scholars over the precise meaning of the words involved to make me wary of assuming that my interpretation is necessarily the right one.
- There are homosexual Christians who are able to combine their faith in Christ with their sexuality, and often with an active monogamous sexual relationship. If they've prayed through the issues involved and talked them through with their pastor, then I'm not really sure that any words of criticism or caution from me would really do any good, and indeed they may do more harm than good.
If you support sin, sure why not.Oh, if only all posts were as thoughtful, loving, sensible, literate and Christian as this one! <sigh>
Sin is less bad if you hide it?Adulterers are not trying to push justify their sin's. They usually hide them.
How about a business fair where companies that exploit 3rd world workers are displayed. Or where consumption (gluttony) is encouraged. In every western country you could say that every day is gluttony-pride day.I have not seen Adultery Pride Day celebrated recently, nor have I seen liars Pride Day either.
You seem to be forgetting, say, remarriage after divorce - politically supported - and promscuity - publically celebrated? And what about all the non-sexual sins "publically celebrated and politically defended" such as greed, exploiting the poor, etc, etc, etc. Sins far more clearly harmful than consentual sex.All sex outside of marriage, but the only sexual sin publically celebrated and politically defended is the sin of homosexuality.
No, I mean to say that Christianity is composed of more than the postmordern "loving" concept. The postmodernist epistimological concept of love is not the same as the biblical concept of love.You mean only posts that support sin are clearly loving, Christian, etc.?
Are you saying that REAL Christianity is harsh, unloving, rude, judgemental, etc. etc.?
I think you've got your knickers in a twist over this one!!!
When you can use scripture to back that up I'll believe you. But I will agree with you that most christians are ignorant and their christain philosophy is more based on tradition/feelings than on scripture.homosexuality is not a sin ignorance is though.
Perhaps, but the concept of love portrayed by some conservative Christians is so unloving as to make the concept worthless.No, I mean to say that Christianity is composed of more than the postmordern "loving" concept. The postmodernist epistimological concept of love is not the same as the biblical concept of love.
This is creating something of a straw-man. That's not the argument of most (any?) people here. However, God's love does extend to allowing people to do the wrong thing - Christ never forced anyone to follow him or his commandments.I'll give you one example. God corrects us because he loves us, he lets us suffer for spiritual growth. Postmodern love is based on "tolerance," lets accept everyone for everything.
Because it is almost always a cover for "hate the sin and pay lip-service to loving the sinner". I've yet to meet anyone who uses the term and goes on to make it work in a valuable, Christ centred, way.This is a growing problem since these teachings plauge the church. For example most postmodern christians can't accept the biblical concept of loving the sinner but hating the sin...
Not all facts are provable from scripture alone - to try and force scripture into that role is to try and force it into a role for which it was never intended by God.this is the issue with homosexuality. Not only that but they start justifiying their sin, as "feeling" or "God made them that way" even if they can't support it with scripture.
Define natural.Or they use the strawman argument which is what you are doing, putting words into my mouth or circular arguments "how would you feel that if they told you, you couldn't marry a woman" which goes under the assumption that homosexuality is natural although there is no proof
No, sin is determined by harm. Or, put the other way around, by failing to meet at least one of the two great commandments. So, how does a monogomous, faithful, permanent, loving, consentual homosexual relationship break one of those commandments - without reference to any other command (since any other command must, itself, follow from the great two)?and that sin is determined by feeling.
IMO, that's what those who oppose all homosexual relationships - eg yourself - are doing.They have an exogetical theology, it's no longer about what scripture says..it's what you want scripture to say.
Because God speaks to us through it. I don't believe the bible becaue it's true - I believe it because (and only to the extent) that God speaks through it. God is the point, the purpose, the authority and the truth - not the bible.If there is no objective truth to the bible? Why believe it at all?
And others base theirs more on prejudiced interpretations of scripture than on Christ.When you can use scripture to back that up I'll believe you. But I will agree with you that most christians are ignorant and their christain philosophy is more based on tradition/feelings than on scripture.
Actually christainity is about Christ.
And different christains seemd to have a different concept of love..they often confuse it with romanticism and relativism.
Yes those things are sins as well. However, we never see anyone prancing about preaching that "liars are made in God's image to don't pick on them". "Adulterers are a creation of God and are therefore beautiful, leave them alone". Even if people don't go to extremes, you will still never get something like "even though it is a sin to murder, we shouldn't be to hard on them, we need to love them not condemn them, leave them be". However, with homosexuals, people always tend to be defensive about the situation. That is why I made this thread, to point that out. We shouldn't be defending wrong, just as Cajun Huguenot pointed out, we could be leading someone down a very dark path once we be "politically correct" and "tolerate" their sin. Just something to think about...
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