Homosexuality = First class ticket to hell?

[Celticflower]

I will be the first to admit that I don't have all the answers in this matter. While I do believe that God loves the homosexual as much as He does anyone else, I'm not sure he approves of homosexual acts. I do think gays should be allowed in the church, but I don't think they should be put in leadership roles since the example they set by their lifestyle could be seen as a stumbling block to others (mainly because it has been viewed as wrong by the church for so long). Also, since gays, by and large, cannot legally marry that would make all their sexual encounters outside the bonds of marriage, something most churches teach is wrong.

Do gays who believe in Jesus go to heaven or hell?? That's not my decision to make.

One interesting note on a possible reason why homosexual acts are condemned in the Bible-- in some ancient cultures it was not uncommon for the general of the losing army to be publically raped by the general of the winning army. It was seen as a form of degradation, not sexual gratification. The rapist was held blameless while the victim was condemned. Maybe God wanted to do away with this practice.

 

[dmp]

There is NO way a 17 year old kid 'IS' Gay. Gay is, as gay does. Don't be gay - don't break God's instructions and you will be fine. Homosexuality is no 'greater' a sin in God's book than...habitually committing any OTHER sin. God tells us not to participate in homosexual sex for a couple reasons, I believe.

The first is, a homosexual lifestyle is physically destructive. It hurts a body. Absolutely. One's risk of catching mortal infections, as well as a signifigantly lower life span point to that.
Another is, living a homosexual lifestyle is psychologically destructive. Homosexuals are more likely to be involved in cases of domestic violence, three times more likely to be involved in child molestation, and have higher suicide/suicide attempts rates, if I recall.

Then...there is the whole 'common sense' thing people have to come to terms with. It's just not common sense that two men (or two women) should be 'mates' - from a biological standpoint. I suspect most homosexual desires stem from issues one may have with their fathers/dads, or other adults. I've known quite well, two homosexual men in my life - both were molested as children; HUGE problems for them. One of these men confessed that after months of abuse in vulnerable years, he came to enjoy what this man was doing with him. That experience DIRECTLY lead towards his homosexual urges.

And that's the key...urges and control. At times, I have an 'urge' to rob a bank...I don't rob banks because i know it's wrong, despite how much I enjoy money.

I'd suggest finding counselling - Christian counselling...make sure it's not the foo-foo 'tolerant' kind of "Christian" who doesn't understand what the bible teaches us about homosexuality - find a counsellor who is deeply rooted in biblical concepts.

don't fall into the trap of committing to a lifestyle without having ALL the neccessary information about the consequences, young brother.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

Well, I've been fighting with this for a while, but I finally come to terms with myself, and I'm gay.

Been trying to hide it for quite some time, but I finally told some close freinds and such. (Telling parents = no no >>)

Anyway, I've seen what most Christians think on the subject, and how it's sinful and a sinful "lifestyle".

And I've read in the bible how it says it's a sin and such, but then I read this. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/study.html

So, am I pretty much going to hell now? or does Jesus accept me for who I am? :s (I beleive the second one, but meh, Stuff I've heard, seems like it's a bigger sin to say you're a christian and be gay, then being gay alone. :s)

If you want more information about being gay and Christian (like me), PM me and I'll send you some links to some great websites that'll help you reconcile your sexuality with your faith.

 

[Sam Gamgee]

I think the true lie was denying it. Now that I've accepted it I feel a great deal of stress has been lifted off my shoulders, and I feel better then I ever have.

And I also feel closer to God then I ever have before. But meh, what are your opinions on that site? o.o

I felt the same way... I felt FREE for the first time in my life.

And that freedom helped me worship God even more...

 

[Scholar in training]

So far, you've given me no argument for saying that homosexual desire is sinful. Apart, that is, from your church says it is. Maybe you should address some of the arguments in the link in the OP, instead of merely stating an opinion?

Actually, he said that he believes attraction between the same sex is unavoidable; that acting on it is something that should be avoided.

And your say-so arguments aren't exactly effective either.

 

[dmp]

I felt the same way... I felt FREE for the first time in my life.

And that freedom helped me worship God even more...

I knew a brother who felt MOST free to worship God when he'd get high on marijuana. The thing we need to remember, brother, is our faith isn't based on our 'feelings' of God or godliness, it's about making a decision to follow Christ. It is about denying our sinful nature and doing the right thing - sometimes in spite of whatever 'feelings' we have.

I wish you the best -

darin

 

[vossler]

Then nobody gets to go, including you. But God loves us and forgives us all. Then he gives us ice-cream.

He forgives only when we repent. Repentance requires that we turn from our sin, it's not a free ticket.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Well, I've been fighting with this for a while, but I finally come to terms with myself, and I'm gay.

Been trying to hide it for quite some time, but I finally told some close freinds and such. (Telling parents = no no >>)

Anyway, I've seen what most Christians think on the subject, and how it's sinful and a sinful "lifestyle".

And I've read in the bible how it says it's a sin and such, but then I read this. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/study.html

So, am I pretty much going to hell now? or does Jesus accept me for who I am? :s (I beleive the second one, but meh, Stuff I've heard, seems like it's a bigger sin to say you're a christian and be gay, then being gay alone. :s)

’Tis not enough to say,
"I’m sorry and repent,"
And then go on from day to day
Just as I always went.
Repentance is to leave
The sins we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve
By doing them no more.
(Poem’s author unknown)

 

[CM]

Ever throught of the possibility that it wasn't a sin? :s

After coming clean about this, my relation ship with Christ has only gotten stronger, and if he really thought it was that bad, I figured he'd be telling me. :s

And I'm sorry I sound so weird about this, but I can't help the way I feel, it's just part of who I am. .-. And if it's a sin, I am truely sorry, but this is just the way I am. :s

 

[JunkYardDog]

Ever throught of the possibility that it wasn't a sin? :s

After coming clean about this, my relation ship with Christ has only gotten stronger, and if he really thought it was that bad, I figured he'd be telling me. :s

And I'm sorry I sound so weird about this, but I can't help the way I feel, it's just part of who I am. .-. And if it's a sin, I am truely sorry, but this is just the way I am. :s

He DID tell you it is sin. You just want to believe the teachers who will tickle your ears on the subject.

 

[dmp]

Ever throught of the possibility that it wasn't a sin? :s

After coming clean about this, my relation ship with Christ has only gotten stronger, and if he really thought it was that bad, I figured he'd be telling me. :s

And I'm sorry I sound so weird about this, but I can't help the way I feel, it's just part of who I am. .-. And if it's a sin, I am truely sorry, but this is just the way I am. :s

But there is no possibility that homosexuality is 'not' sinful. Your relationship with Christ has not gotten better - what's gotten better is your feeling of not having to hide or excuse your sinful practices. You may feel attraction to men - that's VERY normal. What is abnormal is your transference of that attraction to sexual desire. You can control both who you are, and what you do. Don't sell yourself short here, brother.

I used to say "If God didn't want me fat, I wouldn't be fat" as an excuse for my childhood chubbiness. My dad one day gave me possibly the best advice ever -

"Darin, God gave you a brain and a will and common sense. True, God may not care if you are fat or ugly or beautiful or even if you shower regularly. Those things in life which we do, such as what we eat, how we behave, are NOT up to God - they are up to US. It's pretty insulting to God, I'd guess, to avoid using the tools he's given us...such as common sense, reason, and self-control."

...or something like that.

 

[indra_fanatic]

Well, I've been fighting with this for a while, but I finally come to terms with myself, and I'm gay.

Been trying to hide it for quite some time, but I finally told some close freinds and such. (Telling parents = no no >>)

Anyway, I've seen what most Christians think on the subject, and how it's sinful and a sinful "lifestyle".

And I've read in the bible how it says it's a sin and such, but then I read this. http://www.truthsetsfree.net/study.html

So, am I pretty much going to hell now? or does Jesus accept me for who I am? :s (I beleive the second one, but meh, Stuff I've heard, seems like it's a bigger sin to say you're a christian and be gay, then being gay alone. :s)

How can you be positive that you are gay?
How can you be sure that you were meant to have these desires?
Do you care that you have this orientation?

I know, it's easy for a straight person to say, but my conviction is that sexual characteristics and tastes are learned, consciously or not, much more than we often think or would like to admit (I am including heterosexual tastes as well).

I will be praying for you.

Brian

 

[indra_fanatic]

I think the true lie was denying it. Now that I've accepted it I feel a great deal of stress has been lifted off my shoulders, and I feel better then I ever have.

While I think there is indeed a certain amount in honesty in what you said, what are you going to do with this now? Are you going to acquiesce, or are you going to resist it?

It's a decision heterosexual Christians must make every day when they are faced with lusting about women. Don't feel alone.

 

[Scholar in training]

Ever throught of the possibility that it wasn't a sin? :s

After coming clean about this, my relation ship with Christ has only gotten stronger, and if he really thought it was that bad, I figured he'd be telling me. :s

I think that dmp brought up a good point: that someone might feel closest to God when high, but feeling doesn't always equate to reality (I can attest to that personally). I think you might feel better because you have told the truth (or what you think is the truth - no offense intended, but you are young); that doesn't necessarily mean that homosexual behavior itself is ok.

And I'm sorry I sound so weird about this, but I can't help the way I feel, it's just part of who I am. .-. And if it's a sin, I am truely sorry, but this is just the way I am. :s

Genetics play a role in lots of things. Some people are, to an extent, inclined to drink alcohol more than others because of genetics. But does this mean that they have no control over their behavior? That it's just who they are?

 

[CM]

How can you be positive that you are gay? I'm 100% sure now, for about 2 years I've been trying to hide and "be straight"
How can you be sure that you were meant to have these desires?: I don't know if I was "meant" to, but all I know is they're there. :s

Do you care that you have this orientation? I used to...a lot, but it's just a part of who I am, it doesn't change anything really, I'm the same person I always was.

 

[PraetorTemplar]

I think it might be a good idea for you to read the article he posted. I can't think of a better exegesis of the Bible passages supposedly relating to homosexuality. I don't see how anyone can anymore see the Bible as being against homosexuality. (And don't just quote a bunch of Bible verses out of context and think that will answer everything: it won't wash. If you've got a better argument, post it.)



When the prodigal son came home, he got to have a party! Parties have ice cream!

Verses Against homosexuality 1 samuel 18:1
2 samuel 1:25-26
and Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lieth with mankind , as lieth with a woman, both of them have commited an abomination ,they shall surely be put tp death ; there blood shall be upon them "

But if all sin is equal in the eyes of the lord except blasphamy agaist the holy spirit than a gay person can be forgiven if they repent as it is writen in Mark 3:28-29

 

[beechy]

The first is, a homosexual lifestyle is physically destructive. It hurts a body. Absolutely. One's risk of catching mortal infections, as well as a signifigantly lower life span point to that.
Another is, living a homosexual lifestyle is psychologically destructive. Homosexuals are more likely to be involved in cases of domestic violence, three times more likely to be involved in child molestation, and have higher suicide/suicide attempts rates, if I recall.

You haven't posted anything in support of these contentions. With respect to domestic violence, for example, I'd counter your assertion with statistics reporting that domestic violence occurs in same sex relationships with the same statistical frequency as it occurs in heterosexual relationships, and that 90-95% of domestic violence victims are women, while as many as 95% of DV perpetrators are men. Also, I'm assuming that your assertions regarding "risk of catching mortal infections" relate to anal sex by gay men. What about lesbians? Do you have the same concerns for gay women?

Then...there is the whole 'common sense' thing people have to come to terms with. It's just not common sense that two men (or two women) should be 'mates' - from a biological standpoint. I suspect most homosexual desires stem from issues one may have with their fathers/dads, or other adults. I've known quite well, two homosexual men in my life - both were molested as children; HUGE problems for them. One of these men confessed that after months of abuse in vulnerable years, he came to enjoy what this man was doing with him. That experience DIRECTLY lead towards his homosexual urges.

I don't follow your unexplained "common sense" argument. Are you saying that because heterosexual vaginal sex "makes sense" as a procreative method that it consequently only "makes sense" for men and women to be "mates" with each other?

As for your two gay acquaintances having been sexually abused as kids -- that sucks. On a more positive note, I'm a woman in a relationship with another woman, and neither of us were ever sexually abused. So now we've evened the playing field, eh?

And that's the key...urges and control. At times, I have an 'urge' to rob a bank...I don't rob banks because i know it's wrong, despite how much I enjoy money.

I agree it's wrong to rob a bank even if you have the urge to do so. However, I don't agree that it's necessarily wrong to be in a relationship with someone of the same sex, so I don't agree that it's necessarily a "bad" urge that needs to be controlled in the same sense as you should control an urge to hurt or steal from someone else (assuming everyone's a consenting adult, etc etc).

 

[dmp]

However, I don't agree that it's necessarily wrong to be in a relationship with someone of the same sex, so I don't agree that it's necessarily a "bad" urge that needs to be controlled in the same sense as you should control an urge to hurt or steal from someone else (assuming everyone's a consenting adult, etc etc).

it's a good thing God doesn't ask for Beechy's agreement when he dictates what is sinful.

 

[indra_fanatic]

How can you be positive that you are gay? I'm 100% sure now, for about 2 years I've been trying to hide and "be straight"
How can you be sure that you were meant to have these desires?: I don't know if I was "meant" to, but all I know is they're there. :s

CM, the fact is that the Western concept of exclusive homosexuality is a really new one. In Scriptural days, and indeed today in many non-western nations, homosexuality is seen merely as one expression of sexual behavior at one end of the spectrum that is practiced, at one time or another, by all. Appx. 99% of ancient Greek males were functional bisexuals, and a similar figure is true of certain Arab and south Asian societies today.

Surely 99% of Greek men were not exclusively gay...

With all due respect, I think that the mind is a powerful thing and that it is quite possible to resign yourself to something and have it be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Example: I know a girl from a former church who does not particularly care to have children (ever), but since all of her friends are adamant that she will want them someday, and that motherhood will make her a better Christian, she now is pretty sure she wants them after all.

Most people are capable of attraction to both sexes. I think the reasons that some people become mostly attracted to the same gender are highly varied--I don't deny that there may be some genetic influence (but influence is much different than a foregone conclusion), but also people can receive negative influence from peers or the media, be subject to sexual trauma that causes them to question their identity, become desensitized to inappropriate sexual behaviors (and I count straights in that too), or, in a few cases, actively choose it (I am not saying that of you).

In my limited experience, I have never known a believer struggling with homosexuality that has not undergone some severe trauma, or at least a bad impression, from an adult of the opposite sex in their youth. Again, I am not saying that's true of you, but it is a pattern I have noticed.

Do you care that you have this orientation? I used to...a lot, but it's just a part of who I am, it doesn't change anything really, I'm the same person I always was.

What I meant was "do you have a problem with it"? It's one thing to acknowledge a sexual orientation or a sexual struggle; it's quite another to accept it and think it's absolutely okay. Compare:

"I struggle with inappropriate content. I feel better that I now know I am not living a lie of denial."

"I use inappropriate content, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's who I am."

Which attitude is Godly?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I will be the first to admit that I don't have all the answers in this matter. While I do believe that God loves the homosexual as much as He does anyone else, I'm not sure he approves of homosexual acts. I do think gays should be allowed in the church, but I don't think they should be put in leadership roles since the example they set by their lifestyle could be seen as a stumbling block to others (mainly because it has been viewed as wrong by the church for so long).

When you say gays here, do you mean those who have a homosexual orientation or those who engage in homosexual erotic acts?

Also, since gays, by and large, cannot legally marry that would make all their sexual encounters outside the bonds of marriage, something most churches teach is wrong.

Does the state determine whether someone is married in the eyes of God? If the state decided to disolve the institution of legal marriage, would everyone have to cease having sex lest they be fornicating?

Do gays who believe in Jesus go to heaven or hell?? That's not my decision to make.

One interesting note on a possible reason why homosexual acts are condemned in the Bible-- in some ancient cultures it was not uncommon for the general of the losing army to be publically raped by the general of the winning army. It was seen as a form of degradation, not sexual gratification. The rapist was held blameless while the victim was condemned. Maybe God wanted to do away with this practice.

If this is the reason for the condemnation, now that such practice has been mostly eliminated, would such a broad condemnation still be in force?