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Featured Holy Spirit Baptism Is NOT Water Immersion

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Nov 15, 2020.

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  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mark 16:16. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe
    will be condemned.

    All who believe and are baptized, are born again unto a living hope, made alive together
    with Christ, having all trespasses forgiven.
    1 Peter 1:3 Colossians 2:12
    They are buried with Him in immersion, being baptized into His death, to walk
    in newness of life.
    Romans 6:4 , Romans 2:28
    They are circumcised with the circumcision of Christ, which is of the heart, in the Spirit,
    and having received the promise of the Father, can confess that Jesus is their Lord.


    1 Corinthians 12:3. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

    However, you cannot "tuck away" the baptism of the Holy Spirit under water baptism as if
    it is all one thing. When you study the baptism of the Holy Spirit in: Acts 2 Acts 4 Acts 10
    and Acts 19 you will find that it is a corporate experience, unifying the members of Christ's body, empowering them to carry out their mandate in Christ. The instructions pertaining to this baptism are never applied to an individual, for all who are in Christ are born again from above, and are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Ephesians 1:13 Ephesians 4:30
    For example, Philip the evangelist converting and baptizing the eunuch Acts 8:26
    Jesus is addressing all of His holy apostles in


    Acts 1:5. for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit
    not many days from now.

    These men had all been made clean by His Word, water baptized in His Name and were born again, ministering in the Spirit, and had the Spirit breathed into them after the resurrection. John 20:22
    And yet, He instructs them:

    Acts 1:8. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

    This is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which came upon them in Acts 2 and 4, also upon the household of Cornelius as a sign to Peter and his companions in Acts 10. Most instructive of
    all is the church at Ephesus in Acts 19.
    This is the "One Spirit, One Baptism" that Paul speaks of in his letter to them,
    not water baptism, many greatly err in misinterpreting this:

    Ephesians 4:
    3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    The unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace is established under the baptism of the
    Holy Spirit, something many do not acknowledge, perhaps labeling it "Pentecostal".
    No my friends, this is Christian Baptism, for it is the Spirit that bonds us together,
    when we are committed to the endeavor of True Fellowship.
    This is what it means to be "In Christ".
    There will be many who came to Christ, received forgiveness of their sins and baptized in
    His Name, and in the absence of true Holy Spirit discipleship will have never experienced
    the baptism in the Holy Spirit, of which tongues is just one small manifestation.
    All the gifts, administrations, and ministries of the Holy Spirit are necessary to thrive in Christ.


    Acts 19:
    1
    And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the
    upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
    2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
    So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
    3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
    So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
    4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
    5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
    7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
    Continue reading the chapter and enjoy the wonder of the "Acts of the Holy Spirit".
     
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Only the apostles and those they laid their hands on had the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The two outpourings being the exception. All believers have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. And experience the fulness of the Spirit through repentance.
     
  3. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran Supporter

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    There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

    (Prepositions help -There's 3 baptisms)

    1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus is the baptism for salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection.
    (Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27)

    Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
    2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," All 3 persons of the Godhead endorsed it (Matt 3:13-16). (Matt 3:6,11 ; 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

    3 - By Jesus with or into The Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) Includes enduring us with power for service to Him. (Acts 1:5 8: Acts 8:14-17; 10:44-48, 11:16; Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; I Cor 12:13).

    Agree they're different yet
    "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." I John 5:7-8
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  4. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Active Member

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    Baptism is a sign and seal of Jesus uniting a person to Himself, and thereby making him or her visibly a member of His church.

    Baptism is a sign of three totally undeserved, gracious things that Jesus does for Christians. First, it is a sign of being washed clean, because Christians have been washed clean from their sins by Jesus' death on the cross. Second, it is a sign of dying and rising to new life, because a Christian's old self has died and they have risen to a new life with Jesus, and there will be a day when their bodies also will be raised from the dead, as Jesus was. Third, the poured water is a sign of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus pours out on all who trust in Him.

    Baptism does not automatically do any of these things. But when a baptised person believes the promises contained in their baptism, God does somehow use it to do these things for them. Therefore for baptism to be of any value to the baptised person, they must love, serve and trust Jesus Christ for the rest of their life.
     
  5. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I remember when John baptized Jesus in the river Jordan, John saw the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus like a dove.
     
  6. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Great post!
    This is so important, and every christian should need this in their christian life, but is neglected and not sought after and there is bad interpretations of the bible preventing people from getting it, and that this is a 'bad doctrine of pentecostals'.

    I should add that basically the baptism of the Holy spirit or being filled with the Holy spirit, is practically the same,
    and is the PERSON of the Holy spirit filling your interior like if you were a vessel, and this 'filling' can have varying degrees you can be filled 'half' or a bit or fully filled,
    and we need to take care of this precious person now living so close to us so we need no to sin specially sexually that the bible talks so much against that,

    And pray to mantain communion with him/God. Myself i'm trying to make things better to mantain and please the most nice person there is and have treated me so well always even when i was wrong and with bad attitudes/sins.
    Also can happen that you will need a 're fill' from time to time, in the bible we read that people who was already filled were filled again, so this is no a rare thing i'm saying.
     
  7. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is sad that this is in 'controversial christian theology' controversial for a christian should be neglecting this most important teaching. The devil defenitely doesn't want for you to get this, pentecostal or not i don't care this is very much needed.
     
  8. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The receiving of the Holy Spirit by believing the Gospel, referred to as promise of the Father,
    and the indwelling Spirit, differs from the baptism of the Holy Spirit in that it is received by believers corporately [as a body] to bring them together in the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace.
    I do not see that much within denominations, much less across denominations, and this can be
    attributed to one thing lacking. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, by which our sufficiency is no longer
    of ourselves, but we submit as a group to the Lord's Authority.

    Ephesians 2:
    4
    But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

    We can only accomplish this under the baptism of the Holy Spirit, in fellowship with one another.
    Psalm 34:3. Oh, magnify the Lord with me,
    And let us exalt His name together.
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I disagree.

    Acts 2:38-39
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far offfor all whom the Lord our God will call.”
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    There was only one outpouring. At Pentecost. The house of Cornelius was not an outpouring any more than Samaria was. Or Ephesus for that matter.

    Acts 1:4-5
    On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
     
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  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The only two instances I can find in the New Testament which are identified with the baptism with the Holy Spirit are the outpourings that occurred on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house.

    The laying on of hands is what has historically been called Chrismation in Christianity. And has historically been considered ordinarily part of the overall Baptismal Rite. Though as we see in the case with the Samaritans some time lapsed between Baptism and Chrismation.

    However I don't see particularly good evidence in identifying Chrismation with the baptism with the Holy Spirit, as Scripture doesn't identify baptism with the Holy Spirit with the laying on of hands, but with the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost (with what happened at Cornelius' house as a kind of second Pentecost).

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Why do you consider what happened at Cornelius' house a second outpouring? I see it as an extension of the outpouring at Pentecost. Doesn't it cause doctrinal issues to claim that there were two outpourings? Acts 2 says it was for ALL people. (not just the Jews)

    Acts 2:17
    “‘In the last days, God says,
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your young men will see visions,
    your old men will dream dreams.
     
  13. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I also would closely consider the narrative of Acts 19, and what occurred in Ephesus. I do not believe
    that the Holy Spirit gives us any trivial information. In Acts 2, there was 120 in the upper room. I cannot
    conclude by that 120 are required for an outpouring of the Spirit. At Ephesus, we are told there were
    12 men, was that for no reason? I believe in the practical aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit. This is
    not ceremonial. Paul says that "a dispensation has been given unto me, woe is me if I do not preach
    the Gospel!"
    If the work is the Lord's, the Spirit is always the provision to accomplish that work.
    Look at what occurred at Ephesus! So much power of God manifested that it rocked the region and the word of God moved mightily and prevailed.
    Look at the letter to the Ephesians, and compare that to what you find in 1 and 2 Corinthians.
    There is some advanced knowledge in the Ephesian letter, and yet in 1 Corinthians 12-14, we get startling details as to how the Holy Spirit is to govern our actions as the body of Christ that cannot simply be ignored!
    Water baptism is vital at conversion for the heart circumcision of Christ, for being reborn and sealed with the Spirit of promise, and adoption.
    The baptism of the Holy Spirit is for the work of the ministry.
    So that we can work together in the unity of the Spirit, in the bond of peace.
    People look at the church and say "it ain't happenin'", but I have experienced the manifestations in
    small group meetings, men's fellowship and outreach. The anointing that enables
    us to experience the all-sufficiency that is not of ourselves. Get in a small group and invite the Holy
    Spirit into your living room. He is with us always, even to the end of the age.
     
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I prefer the word manifestation, as in:
    1 Corinthians 12:7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
     
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  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    I'd agree that it was an extension of Pentecost, my point was really that it was one of two events that are identified as being the "baptism with the Holy Spirit". I think that the point of what happened at Cornelius' house was a sign from God that Gentiles are part of what God began on Pentecost.

    That's why I argue that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is a reference to what happened on Pentecost, what occurred then and there was the fulfillment of what John had foretold and Jesus affirmed.

    We all participate in Pentecost by God's work of bringing us into the Body of Christ, the Church, through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. Which is why St. Peter attaches the promise of the Spirit with Baptism in Acts 2:38.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    At Ephesus St. Paul encountered a group of disciples of John the Baptist, which is why they say the only baptism they knew was John's baptism. So Paul preached the Gospel and administered Christian Baptism to them, then afterward laid hands on them (Chrismation).

    Nothing in the text associates this with the baptism with the Holy Spirit, but follows the pattern of Baptism followed by laying on of hands.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  17. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Acts 19:6. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
    So what happened here and at the home of Cornelius was not a baptism of the Holy Spirit?
    That is some amazing disassociation to accommodate a religious dogma. Peter did not see it that way.

    Acts 15:
    8
    So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as to us,
    9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    Acts 10:
    44
    While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
    45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. poured out=baptism of HS
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

    You cannot place this under water baptism, because after seeing the manifestation of the Spirit,
    Then Peter answered,
    47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
    just as we ?
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
    Water baptism occurs after.
     
  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not so at the home of Cornelius. What pattern?
     
  19. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Peter identifies what happened at Cornelius' house as being what had happened on Pentecost, and Peter directly connects the dots with the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    That's part of the point I've already made in my previous posts. The use of the term "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is used of Pentecost, as Jesus explicitly uses it in Acts 1 speaking of His followers receiving power "not many days from now". And that what happened at Cornelius' house is an extension of, or kind of "second" Pentecost; as a sign of the acceptance of the Gentiles.

    What I am rejecting is the idea that the laying on of hands (Chrismation) is "the baptism with the Holy Spirit"; or at least Scripture itself never makes that association.

    That's not what I've been saying. I'm saying that the means through which you and I are made members of the Church, united to Christ, and how the Spirit Himself works in our lives to bring about His work is Baptism.

    This is why Baptism and Chrismation has been standard Christian practice since the beginning.

    We have a pretty thorough description of these things in a work known as The Apostolic Traditions, attributed to St. Hippolytus of Rome,

    "At the time determined for baptism, the bishop shall give thanks over some oil, which he puts in a vessel. It is called the Oil of Thanksgiving. He shall take some more oil and exorcise it. It is called the Oil of Exorcism. A deacon shall hold the Oil of Exorcism and stand on the left. Another deacon shall hold the Oil of Thanksgiving and stand on the right.

    When the elder takes hold of each of them who are to receive baptism, he shall tell each of them to renounce, saying, "I renounce you Satan, all your service, and all your works."After he has said this, he shall anoint each with the Oil of Exorcism, saying, "Let every evil spirit depart from you." Then, after these things, the bishop passes each of them on nude to the elder who stands at the water. They shall stand in the water naked. A deacon,likewise, will go down with them into the water. When each of them to be baptized has gone down into the water, the one baptizing shall lay hands on each of them, asking, "Do you believe in God the Father Almighty?" And the one being baptized shall answer, "I believe." He shall then baptize each of them once, laying his hand upon each of their heads. Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and died, and rose on the third day living from the dead, and ascended into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of the Father, the one coming to judge the living and the dead?" When each has answered, "I believe," he shall baptize a second time. Then he shall ask, "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit and the Holy Church and the resurrection of the flesh?" Then each being baptized shall answer, "I believe." And thus let him baptize the third time. Afterward, when they have come up out of the water, they shall be anointed by the elder with the Oil of Thanksgiving, saying, 'I anoint you with holy oil in the name of Jesus Christ.' Then, drying themselves, they shall dress and afterwards gather in the church.

    The bishop will then lay his hand upon them, invoking, saying, 'Lord God, you who have made these worthy of the removal of sins through the bath of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit, grant to them your grace, that they might serve you according to your will, for to you is the glory, Father and Son with the Holy Spirit, in the Holy Church, now and throughout the ages of the ages. Amen'. After this he pours the oil into his hand, and laying his hand on each of their heads, says, 'I anoint you with holy oil in God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.'
    "

    That's what a Christian baptismal service looked like around 200 AD, and it's what a Christian baptismal service still looks like in most of the historic churches. The thing that is striking when one reads the ancient writings of the Church is how consistent Christian faith and practice has remained over the last two thousand years, making accusations of widespread apostasy or some massive departure from the apostolic, New Testament faith an accusation without any merit.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  20. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    What do you mean? Because the text doesn't mention Cornelius or anyone in his household having hands laid on them?

    I suppose it's possible that they didn't, I have no reason to know for certain one way or another.

    So either the outpouring of the Spirit here rendered the laying on of hands superfluous, and that is why Luke doesn't mention it happening; or else we can infer that they did have hands laid on them, but only that Luke doesn't bother to explicitly say so.

    In either case, I don't see how it affects the overall point.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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