Holocaust as a Hoax

[SolomonVII]

>> Please explain what in the world the Kerri Dunn case has to do with the Holocaust being a hoax or not.

It has to do with you turning your blinders on. Did I ever say the entire Holocaust was a hoax? Please refer back and remind us what I said about the Holocaust.



>> There simply is no historical evidence that 6 million Jews did not die in the Holocaust

There's no historical evidence that 6 million people named Joe did not die in WW2 either. So it must be true.

from what I recall, you started out insinuating that the Holocaust was a sacrifice, leading one to infer that Jewish leaders were sacrificing their own. Of course stillsmallvoice left now uncertain terms that the jewish terms was not Holocaust, but Shoah, in which no sacrificing was implied.

In light of the large degree of tetimony ther has been already on this thread that 6 million is accurate, please refer us to some posts that indicate what a likely revisionist figure would be. Otherwise, this thread will continue to be a game of whach-a-mole, with brainless revisionist idiots continually popping up with no discernible evidence, only to be whacked back down again by those (such as TScott) who do demonstrate at least some historical knowledge on the subject.

 

[applepowerpc]

Interesting how you mention all those 6's. Everyone here seems so [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-sure that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. A 6, followed by 6 zeroes...how about that....

You know, the same Judaism you probably claim to follow strictly forbids the practice of numerology. Deuteronomy 18 lumps it in the same category as witchcraft and sorcery.

To the rest of you, I'm telling you again: the 6 million number comes from Jewish Kaballah. There is a prophecy that says the Jews would return to Israel, "minus 6 million". After the Holocaust these same Kaballalistic Jews insisted 6 million died in the Holocaust; and everyone else, rather than argue with such a victimized people, just accepted it. Unfortunately, if you know anything at all about Kaballah, it's out-and-out witchcraft.

You've got a Jewish professor, sabotaged her own car blaming it on persecution, got the college to pay for her rental car. And just two posts earlier you've got someone who uses G-d and thinks 6 is an awfully important number. It's time to start putting two and two together here.

 

[applepowerpc]

6 million *IS* the revisionist figure.

 

[Zug-Zwang]

Interesting how you mention all those 6's. Everyone here seems so [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-sure that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. A 6, followed by 6 zeroes...how about that....

You know, the same Judaism you probably claim to follow strictly forbids the practice of numerology. Deuteronomy 18 lumps it in the same category as witchcraft and sorcery.

To the rest of you, I'm telling you again: the 6 million number comes from Jewish Kaballah. There is a prophecy that says the Jews would return to Israel, "minus 6 million". After the Holocaust these same Kaballalistic Jews insisted 6 million died in the Holocaust; and everyone else, rather than argue with such a victimized people, just accepted it. Unfortunately, if you know anything at all about Kaballah, it's out-and-out witchcraft.

You've got a Jewish professor, sabotaged her own car blaming it on persecution, got the college to pay for her rental car. And just two posts earlier you've got someone who uses G-d and thinks 6 is an awfully important number. It's time to start putting two and two together here.

I'm not a Jew,I'm not into Judaism and I don't even know what Kabballa is but things can't all be coincadence.
The numbers are out there,I live in Texas and I havn't even met a Jew but as it seems,Israel has been dealing with our enemy for 6 decades and we are finnally forced into dealing with their enemy,not unlike Hitler when we waited around.
Next year is the 60th anniversary of Hioshima I believe,interesting.
Last year Pentacost fell on 6-6 and it was the only month where our days matched the Jewish days.Their first was our first.Not that it means anything.

Last year on the feast of trumpets darkness fell on Rome when a black out occured,the year before that on the feast of trumpets we bombed old Babylon for the first time at the dawn of rosh hashanna,not that it means anything.
Lotsa weird things happened.
May 5th 2000 all the planets lined up in a plumbline.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Interesting how you mention all those 6's. Everyone here seems so [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]-sure that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. A 6, followed by 6 zeroes...how about that....

You know, the same Judaism you probably claim to follow strictly forbids the practice of numerology. Deuteronomy 18 lumps it in the same category as witchcraft and sorcery.

To the rest of you, I'm telling you again: the 6 million number comes from Jewish Kaballah. There is a prophecy that says the Jews would return to Israel, "minus 6 million". After the Holocaust these same Kaballalistic Jews insisted 6 million died in the Holocaust; and everyone else, rather than argue with such a victimized people, just accepted it. Unfortunately, if you know anything at all about Kaballah, it's out-and-out witchcraft.

You've got a Jewish professor, sabotaged her own car blaming it on persecution, got the college to pay for her rental car. And just two posts earlier you've got someone who uses G-d and thinks 6 is an awfully important number. It's time to start putting two and two together here.

Ok. Maybe it was just 4 Million Jews that the Nazis slaughterd and another 4 to 6 million other Europeans that for good measure. Still they tried to exterminate the Jews in Europe. Hitler saw Jews and Gypsies as parasites on the German "Volk." He believed they were sapping German strength. This (in his thinking) would make it impossible for Germany to defeat the Slavs to the east. He saw Germans and Slavs in a battle for "survival of the fittest." One would certainly destroy the other in his thinking. Germans had to kill the Jewish and Gypsy parasites if they were to be strong enough to push the Slavs beyond the Urals and have room to grow in strength.

Anti-holocaust positions are silly. Hitler and the Nazis tried to destroy the Jews and Gypsies in Europe. They were evil anti-Christs and they were very clear about that.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Christopher Fox]

I've skimmed through this thread, and I am amazed at what I've read. To quibble over the exact number of victims of the holocaust (Shoah, whatever) is, I feel, an insult to those who were murdered and those who survived. We all accept that, whatever the exact detail, a colossal number of innocent men, women and children were killed (not so long ago) in an indescribably cruel way. I believe It is disgraceful for us, who were not involved, to bicker about the figures! Instead of focusing on whether four or six million died, you may do better think of what it might have been like to arrive at a camp, to be herded out of an unbearably cramped cattle-truck, then to have your family, wife, children separated into groups some of which were to be used as slaves, some of which (the old, the young, the sick) would not be alive that evening.

Imagine your child wrenched out of your arms to be murdered by people over whom you have no power, and then carry on with your obscene argument over the figures.

 

[TScott]

6 million *IS* the revisionist figure.

No that is incorrect. Six million was one of the initial figures. It was a rough estimate as there was no way to know for certain, and the fact is that an exact figure will never be known because when the Germans first swept across Poland and later Western Russia they were followed closely by what was known as Eisengruppen, mainly made of of SS squads who would round up Jews, intellegencia and wealthy land owners and murder them. There were not to many eyewitness accounts of these murders from the victims point of view for obvious reasons, but I recall a particilarly compelling one from a Jewish teenager in Lithuania. She and hundreds of Jews from her town were taken out of the town near a large pit that was recently excavated and told to remove their clothing. They could all see that as others disrobed they were taken over to the pit and shot in the head. She remembered she was numb with terror and like most others was too frightened to resist. Two of her freinds motioned to her to follow them as they approached two of the men guarding them. They tried to flirt with them desperately thinking they would spare them if they found them attractive. She remembers them being dragged in the direction of the pit. When she moved to the head of the line she was turned and shot in the head. Her wound, miraculously was not fatal, she later regained conciousness half covered with bodies and crawled from the pit. The only person around was the dozer operator who was covering the pit a few hundred feet away and didn't see her. She escaped and was taken in by a family in a nearby farm and survived the war. There were many stories like this young girl's, but there were also many that will never be told.

How ever many were killed will never be known. There were millions. We all know that about 50 million people died in WWII, but only the Jews were singled out as a people for extermination.

 

[SolomonVII]

Even if an exact figure cannot be known, I think it would still be fair to say that the figure of six million has not been derived from some obscure passage in Talmud, (which may or may not exist), but from the European demographic records. If we have a good working knowledge of how many Jews were in European lands before WW2, and we know how many emigrated from Europe to other countries both during and immediately after the holocaust, and we know how many survived, wouldn't it be fair to think that the remaining figure is a pretty fair indicator of the extent of the Jewish holocaust?

 

[TScott]

I've skimmed through this thread, and I am amazed at what I've read. To quibble over the exact number of victims of the holocaust (Shoah, whatever) is, I feel, an insult to those who were murdered and those who survived. We all accept that, whatever the exact detail, a colossal number of innocent men, women and children were killed (not so long ago) in an indescribably cruel way. I believe It is disgraceful for us, who were not involved, to bicker about the figures! Instead of focusing on whether four or six million died, you may do better think of what it might have been like to arrive at a camp, to be herded out of an unbearably cramped cattle-truck, then to have your family, wife, children separated into groups some of which were to be used as slaves, some of which (the old, the young, the sick) would not be alive that evening.

You know Christopher, people who are quibbling about the numbers are usually people who hate Jews and want to discredit the accounts. They start off by saying that it wasn't 6 million, then they tell you that it was only 4 million or 1.2 million. Then they tell you that they weren't gassed at all that they died of some disease. They are predictable. This Kabbalah nonesense is just another twist intended to distract.

Imagine your child wrenched out of your arms to be murdered by people over whom you have no power, and then carry on with your obscene argument over the figures.

I read an account by a woman in Warsaw who said that one night they came in vans to her block in the Ghetto and ordered everyone outside, then they ordered all of the males in the vans. She had two young sons only 4 and 6 years old, her husband was dead. She begged that they not take her sons, but they insisted that they get in the van. Two soldiers grabbed them and forced them into the van. She remembers how frightened they looked. She went to a man who appeared to be in charge and begged for her sons, that they were too small to be taken away. The man smiled and said that he would allow her to take one of her sons. He told her to go ahead and get one of them. She opened the van door and both of her sons looked up expectantly at their mother and held their hands up for her to get them. Of course she couldn't choose and left without either of them. She said the man was laughing at her as she ran away. She never saw her sons again.

 

[SolomonVII]

What is also so profoundly disturbing about this crime against humanity is that Germany was not a portrait of humanity in its most naive and superstiton form. Germany in the 1940's was in many ways the acme of civilized achievement at that point of time. Its bureacracies were rational and efficient, its philosophies were second to none, and its technology was unsurpassed.

To see a society such as this descend into the superstitious barbarity of the mythic superiority of the Aryan race, and so gullibly believe in the paranoid myths of the scheming, conniving Jew as bogeyman, is profoundly disconcerting.

In terms of its religious doctrine, Judaism is in the main not fantastic esoteric kaballah, but is as boring as momma's chicken soup as a cure for colds. Its getting ahead by helping out your family, and study and hard work, and enjoying the blessings that life gives you.

The question to all holocaust deniers becomes "What if you wrong?" What if Jews are extraordinary only to the extent that they have survived by being ordinary and unexceptional? Could you really live with yourself if the Jew is really just as he appears to be?

The fact of the Holocaust is well documented. Whether the final figure is 2 million or 10 million does nothing to change the anti-semitism and genocidal intent of Hitler and his regime. It does nothing to change the many eyewitness acounts, the pictorial evidence, the evidence of the courts, etc., etc, etc....

The evidence against the holocaust so far has been that one jewess lied about being a victim of abuse, and an alleged passage in the Talmud.

From a historical perspective this is just nonsense.

It is valid historical enquiry to try to come to a figure of the extent of the jewish cost of the holocaust, as measured in human lives. It is also important to come to an understanding of the reasons behind the holocaust. As in any historical enquiry, disagreement should be expected and welcomed.

However, the so-called revisionist neither supply as with any independantly verifiable figure, nor do they supply any meaningful evidence that refute the evidence that already exists. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that their position is based only in the same racist hatred and paranoid superstitions that have existed against the Jew in Europe since Roman times.

 

[TScott]

What is also so profoundly disturbing about this crime against humanity is that Germany was not a portrait of humanity in its most naive and superstiton form. Germany in the 1940's was in many ways the acme of civilized achievement at that point of time. Its bureacracies were rational and efficient, its philosophies were second to none, and its technology was unsurpassed.

To see a society such as this descend into the superstitious barbarity of the mythic superiority of the Aryan race, and so gullibly believe in the paranoid myths of the scheming, conniving Jew as bogeyman, is profoundly disconcerting.

Disconcerting because of their civility, but it was just that civility that fathered all of this, and it took place around the turn of the century in the form of a two volume work, Foundations of the Nineteenth Century, by a British born German named Houston Chamberlain. In this work Chamberlain managed to put an intellectual face on racism and antisemitism. It was widely accepted, not just in Germany but in other countries in Europe as well. Chamberlain saw the future of all humanity hinging on the outcome of an apocalytic struggle between the Aryans and the Semites, whom he felt were the two dominant "races" on earth. What really set Chamberlain's work apart from other 19th century German antisemitic rants like those of Trietschke and Graetz was that his work was so widely accepted by not just the leadership of Germany (Willhelm II made it required reading among his officer corps), but of the intellectuals as well. In Foundations, Chamberlain made it clear that it wasn't the Jewish "race" that he hated, but it was their values. "The Jew came into our gay world and spoiled everything with his ominus concept of sin, his law, and his cross." Chamberlain's views were also quite similar to those of his father-in-law, the composer Robert Wagner. Wagner's daughter, Chamberlain's widow, was an early financial supporter of another Jew hater in Munich in the 1920s named Adolf Hitler. Anyway it is interesting how something as seemingly ignorant as racism or antisemitism can, through the skill of manipulating words suddenly become intellegent and even civilized. People will go to great lengths to assign the blame of their problems to others, and when offered a scapgoat they will usually gladly accept it.

What is ironic about European antisemitism is that early on in modern European history Jewish people found themselves excluded from the economies of Europe. They were not permitted membership in any of the craft guilds and to survive were forced to enter the professions in which they needed no one's permission. Subsequently by the nineteenth century, even though they represented a small percentage of the populations of Europe Jews made up a large percentage of the higher professions, a major cause for resentment among the same groups that excluded them from their professions.

 

[Christopher Fox]

You know Christopher, people who are quibbling about the numbers are usually people who hate Jews and want to discredit the accounts. They start off by saying that it wasn't 6 million, then they tell you that it was only 4 million or 1.2 million. Then they tell you that they weren't gassed at all that they died of some disease. They are predictable. This Kabbalah nonesense is just another twist intended to distract.

Yes TScott, I am aware of that. I am afraid I went into a bit of a rant in my post. Your posts on this subject have been rather more reserved and therefore more effective.

I'm afraid a 'red mist' descends on me when I encounter Holocaust denial. My grandfather was a survivor of Auschwitz concentration camp. He was one of only a few hundred British POWs held at the camp. He was taken there, after being captured behind enemy lines, to be tortured by the Gestapo. They believed that he had intimate knowledge of the allied invasion plans in his head. In fact he only knew a tiny fragment. He resisted the evil excesses of his torturers (I shall not go into details) and finally escaped from the camp during the few days between the Nazis (and local guards) fleeing, and the Red Army arriving.

Whilst he was held at the camp he witnessed at first hand the extermination of thousands of Jews. He also observed the frenzied attempt by the Nazis to destroy the evidence of what they’d done. In later years, when I knew him, he would seldom speak of those times. But when he did it made painful listening. I don’t think he was aware of ‘Holocaust Denial’. I think it is a more recent invention. I am glad he was spared the pain that it would have caused him.

Chris.

 

[hemis]

I hear a lot about the holocaust, so how can I be so sure as to know which side is closer in line with facts? From what I understand it never actually happened and it was all a conspiracy to rob Swiss banks for the Jews to increase their financial stronghold.

 

[SolomonVII]

I hear a lot about the holocaust, so how can I be so sure as to know which side is closer in line with facts? From what I understand it never actually happened and it was all a conspiracy to rob Swiss banks for the Jews to increase their financial stronghold.

There are also people arguing that the earth is flat, or that people never went to the moon. It take a little intelligence, some discernment, but mostly just everyday common sense to make a judgement as to what is closest to the truth.

 

[hemis]

There are also people arguing that the earth is flat, or that people never went to the moon. It take a little intelligence, some discernment, but mostly just everyday common sense to make a judgement as to what is closest to the truth.

And there are some that believe that the U.S.S. Main was attacked by Spain. The notion of common sense would lead us to believe all that we hear. Swiss neutrality, as it has become, leads a path easy to attack. Swiss made no move towards either side of war, and could be perceived by those with narrow logic as the enemy. It only becomes much easier to rob one when he has become the one who has, as we say, 'crossed the line'. To the Jews, through all their persecution, could take aim at Swiss as an enemy for being 'neutral' towards the events at hand. Being known that many German officer's had accounts in Swiss is the only link towards the claim.

 

[oldrooster]

I hear a lot about the holocaust, so how can I be so sure as to know which side is closer in line with facts? From what I understand it never actually happened and it was all a conspiracy to rob Swiss banks for the Jews to increase their financial stronghold.

What planet are you from ?

 

[Christopher Fox]

I hear a lot about the holocaust, so how can I be so sure as to know which side is closer in line with facts? From what I understand it never actually happened and it was all a conspiracy to rob Swiss banks for the Jews to increase their financial stronghold.

hemis: Saying things to shock. It isn't big and it isn't clever.

 

[TScott]

Swiss neutrality, as it has become, leads a path easy to attack. Swiss made no move towards either side of war, and could be perceived by those with narrow logic as the enemy. It only becomes much easier to rob one when he has become the one who has, as we say, 'crossed the line'. To the Jews, through all their persecution, could take aim at Swiss as an enemy for being 'neutral' towards the events at hand. Being known that many German officer's had accounts in Swiss is the only link towards the claim.

After a full accounting and after the submission of the Volcker Report in the 1990s the Swiss Banking community agreed to a settlement of 1.25 Billion dollars to be paid thus: $800 million to families of victims who had claims of assets in Swiss banks and $450 million to Jewish organizations and groups as restitution for other transgressions, including the refusal of allowing Jews safe haven in their country during the Holocaust. This was a settlement. In other words the banks agreed to pay. The banks would have never agreed to a settlement if there was no culpability, let alone a settlement of that magnitude.

The Swiss were neutral in WWII because Hitler wished them to remain so. The Belgians and Dutch tried to be neutral as well, but they were in Germany's path to France. Had the Swiss been in the way the Germans would have brushed them aside as well. In fairness, their position was precarious at best. Had Germany won WWII Swiss neutrality would have been moot. They would have had no choice but to cowtow to the whims of the Nazis.

 

[applepowerpc]

The Swiss were no more neutral in WW2 than France or Poland. Hitler twice intended to invade Switzerland--it even had a code name (Operation <something>). It was decided against, because the Nazis thought it would be a pyrrhic victory at best. There is one reason and one reason alone that Switzerland was neutral and France wasn't: because the Nazis invaded France and not Switzerland.

Or am I just being a "brainless revisionist" again?

 

[applepowerpc]

>> The banks would have never agreed to a settlement if there was no culpability, let alone a settlement of that magnitude.


I have to disagree with this statement, though. Innocent people agree to settlements all the time.