Holford's list of 7 "signs"
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Notwithstanding my agreement that 70AD was the end of Jewish independence until the Second Coming, I have to say that some of the things Josephus wrote as to miraculous things are highly questionable. He was indeed writing as a Roman prisoner, and did present "signs" favorable to the Roman readers, who he initially thought would keep the Temple intact.
His dates as to the actiosn of Titus are accurate it seems, but his descriptions of the interractions of Titus with the defenders and so forth, are colorful.
I think it is interesting that Holford here mentions "Grecian fables" because it would only be by such a fable that someone would write that the High Priest was a woman (see #3). I am pretty sure that the High Priest was not a woman.
Secondly, the high regard that is suggested for the Jews keeping the festival suggests that the writer does not know of the INVALIDITY of the priesthood altogether at that point. They were invalidated due to corruption by the Herrodians and Hellenists who purchased and replaced the priesthood, and secondly because Christ was the high priest. This high regard is expected from Josephus, a Jewish Zealot himself, however, the Zealots probably did not have women high priests during the revolt.
Last but not least, the fearful signs in heaven which Jesus spoke of are related to his Second Coming.
It is important to realize that the world "fearful signs" is not recorded by Matthew's Gospel, and essentially, though his account is accurate, Luke's Gospel is not first hand information, it is pieced together from second hand retellings.
Matthew's Gospel is simply more precise as to certain words of Christ than either Mark or Luke could be, as both are summarizations of second hand information.
Preterists would like to use the differnences here to show the earliest possible conflagration of things that could have fulfilled the end times Jesus spoke of completely and fully, but there are just too many problems. Matthew and Luke are retelling one single account of what Jesus said, but they do so in different order.
If I were a betting man I would go with the Jewish Apostle for accuracy, Matthew was commissioned by God, and Luke was commissioned by Theophilus. We can use Luke as a historical proof of these things being said, and we can use Matthew as the explicit and comprehensive account of what was said.
His dates as to the actiosn of Titus are accurate it seems, but his descriptions of the interractions of Titus with the defenders and so forth, are colorful.
I think it is interesting that Holford here mentions "Grecian fables" because it would only be by such a fable that someone would write that the High Priest was a woman (see #3). I am pretty sure that the High Priest was not a woman.
Secondly, the high regard that is suggested for the Jews keeping the festival suggests that the writer does not know of the INVALIDITY of the priesthood altogether at that point. They were invalidated due to corruption by the Herrodians and Hellenists who purchased and replaced the priesthood, and secondly because Christ was the high priest. This high regard is expected from Josephus, a Jewish Zealot himself, however, the Zealots probably did not have women high priests during the revolt.
Last but not least, the fearful signs in heaven which Jesus spoke of are related to his Second Coming.
It is important to realize that the world "fearful signs" is not recorded by Matthew's Gospel, and essentially, though his account is accurate, Luke's Gospel is not first hand information, it is pieced together from second hand retellings.
Matthew's Gospel is simply more precise as to certain words of Christ than either Mark or Luke could be, as both are summarizations of second hand information.
Luke's Gospel reads:
For many will come in my name, saying, I am he! and, The time is at hand! Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.
10 Then he said to them, Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers[c] and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.[ch 21, ESV]
While Matthew's reads:
5 For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
[ch 24, ESV]
So the key difference here is that Luke does not differentiate between the False Messahs and the False Prophets as Matthew does. Luke adds "terrors" where Matthew does not, and Matthew associates "signs" later in the discourse with false prophets (verse 24).For many will come in my name, saying, I am he! and, The time is at hand! Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.
10 Then he said to them, Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.
12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers[c] and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.[ch 21, ESV]
While Matthew's reads:
5 For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
[ch 24, ESV]
Preterists would like to use the differnences here to show the earliest possible conflagration of things that could have fulfilled the end times Jesus spoke of completely and fully, but there are just too many problems. Matthew and Luke are retelling one single account of what Jesus said, but they do so in different order.
If I were a betting man I would go with the Jewish Apostle for accuracy, Matthew was commissioned by God, and Luke was commissioned by Theophilus. We can use Luke as a historical proof of these things being said, and we can use Matthew as the explicit and comprehensive account of what was said.
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I've never heard Josephus classed as a zealot. They were mostly from Galilee, and wanted to forcibly change the staff of the temple (btw, that's their answer to the corrupt priesthood).
I agree, I don't get the woman priest reference, but isn't that the nature of real historic documents--they are not predictable.
Your assumption is that Mt24A is futurist. Really? The material is very 1st century and Judean. That is why it is so similar to Mt 10, which is 1st century and Judean.
The odd thing about Josephus' signs and wonders is that instead of solidifying the zealot position, or even temple Judaism at the time, they confirm that it was being desolated and abandoned. "We are departing."
I agree, I don't get the woman priest reference, but isn't that the nature of real historic documents--they are not predictable.
Your assumption is that Mt24A is futurist. Really? The material is very 1st century and Judean. That is why it is so similar to Mt 10, which is 1st century and Judean.
The odd thing about Josephus' signs and wonders is that instead of solidifying the zealot position, or even temple Judaism at the time, they confirm that it was being desolated and abandoned. "We are departing."
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Josephus was a general for the Zealot cause, but was captured. At some level he must have sold out to the Romans, whether for the sake of saving his skin, or whatever it was, he became a historian and translator.
In my reading of things he switched sides in order to try to negotiate peace and save the Jews from what he saw as a certain defeat in Jerusalem. By that time Jerusalem was surrounded Josephus could clearly see that the Jews would lose. The tide was against them. The Romans were determined.
In his soul he was a Jew, a Zealot, and he believed in his religion (not Christ). But he was also painting a picture so to speak, for the Romans victory parade, and of course, for the future emperor's legacy.
We must just be careful that we don't get carried away with Josephus' accounts of prophetic signs and wonders, because Jews of his day would be quite like that, to seek signs and wonders - and his writings are not scripture. (an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign).
He was certainly an intelligent man, it is possible that these signs were ebellishments of the record to persuade other zeaots to quit the resistance. He would have known that this type of sign was what would shake their faith. His goal is possibly only to save the temple from being destroyed, his one last ditch effort to be a good Jew.
I agree about Matthew 24 being very first century and Judean, however, you have just got to look at the whole chapter is its respective parts. I see prophecies told all through the Old testament as a basic outline combined with a second part with colorful detail.
Matt 24:3-14 are the outline of the whole Great Tribulation
Verses 15-28 are a side note to Judeans to not be fooled by the coming revolt, by Menahem, John of Gishala, and Simon, and the Zealots. This then is the part which explains the trigger point and the beginning of the things from the first outline.
The rest of the passage is about the Glorious appearing.
It's hard to chop up, but you have to chop it up like that because the disciples asked two questions. 1) the end of the age, and 2) the time of Second Coming.
Since there are two ages that must end, 1) the age of the Jews (70 AD) and 2) the age of the Gentiles (ongoing), Jesus described the full end of the age in a brief outline, then provided the relevant application (pointing to Daniel) for their perspective and the end of their present age, and then lastly explains the Second coming.
So it is
1) The signs of the ends of age 1 & 2. (outline)
2) the sign of the end of the first age in detail (the AoD)
3) the sign of the Second Coming (the Day of the Lord)
Well, that is the only way I can make it make sense
In my reading of things he switched sides in order to try to negotiate peace and save the Jews from what he saw as a certain defeat in Jerusalem. By that time Jerusalem was surrounded Josephus could clearly see that the Jews would lose. The tide was against them. The Romans were determined.
In his soul he was a Jew, a Zealot, and he believed in his religion (not Christ). But he was also painting a picture so to speak, for the Romans victory parade, and of course, for the future emperor's legacy.
We must just be careful that we don't get carried away with Josephus' accounts of prophetic signs and wonders, because Jews of his day would be quite like that, to seek signs and wonders - and his writings are not scripture. (an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign).
He was certainly an intelligent man, it is possible that these signs were ebellishments of the record to persuade other zeaots to quit the resistance. He would have known that this type of sign was what would shake their faith. His goal is possibly only to save the temple from being destroyed, his one last ditch effort to be a good Jew.
I agree about Matthew 24 being very first century and Judean, however, you have just got to look at the whole chapter is its respective parts. I see prophecies told all through the Old testament as a basic outline combined with a second part with colorful detail.
Matt 24:3-14 are the outline of the whole Great Tribulation
Verses 15-28 are a side note to Judeans to not be fooled by the coming revolt, by Menahem, John of Gishala, and Simon, and the Zealots. This then is the part which explains the trigger point and the beginning of the things from the first outline.
The rest of the passage is about the Glorious appearing.
It's hard to chop up, but you have to chop it up like that because the disciples asked two questions. 1) the end of the age, and 2) the time of Second Coming.
Since there are two ages that must end, 1) the age of the Jews (70 AD) and 2) the age of the Gentiles (ongoing), Jesus described the full end of the age in a brief outline, then provided the relevant application (pointing to Daniel) for their perspective and the end of their present age, and then lastly explains the Second coming.
So it is
1) The signs of the ends of age 1 & 2. (outline)
2) the sign of the end of the first age in detail (the AoD)
3) the sign of the Second Coming (the Day of the Lord)
Well, that is the only way I can make it make sense
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I'm pretty close to that Aijalon:
24A (to v29) is 1st century Judean
24B is global. It was expected right after but there is an allowance that it could be delayed.
Josephus was protecting things from inside the Temple as a priest to begin with. I don't recall him arriving from an outside take over by the zealots. Zealots must be kept lower case, because there were so many groups.
24A (to v29) is 1st century Judean
24B is global. It was expected right after but there is an allowance that it could be delayed.
Josephus was protecting things from inside the Temple as a priest to begin with. I don't recall him arriving from an outside take over by the zealots. Zealots must be kept lower case, because there were so many groups.
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The Bible happened in history, not outside of it. If He said in a generation, you will see the temple flattened, then we should expect that. It was. He even dwelt on the reasons.
There is other stuff that is true that is not in the Bible. Like how women's greatest temptation is emotional bonding.
"My sense of reality is based on several coordinates, such as history, clear human experience, over vast amounts of time, and the Bible, so that no one of them warps the other and all of them are stronger in consort with each other." --U. Middelmann, L'Abri.org Christian Fellowship
"When evangelicals realize that things are in the Bible because they are true to outside reality, we will have our revolution. For now the world's wishful thinking is that the Bible's 'truth' is just private and internal or 'religious.'" --F. Schaeffer. That's why Holford preached the facts recorded by Josephus to England to stop the onslaught of the destructive thinking of Thomas Payne.
There is other stuff that is true that is not in the Bible. Like how women's greatest temptation is emotional bonding.
"My sense of reality is based on several coordinates, such as history, clear human experience, over vast amounts of time, and the Bible, so that no one of them warps the other and all of them are stronger in consort with each other." --U. Middelmann, L'Abri.org Christian Fellowship
"When evangelicals realize that things are in the Bible because they are true to outside reality, we will have our revolution. For now the world's wishful thinking is that the Bible's 'truth' is just private and internal or 'religious.'" --F. Schaeffer. That's why Holford preached the facts recorded by Josephus to England to stop the onslaught of the destructive thinking of Thomas Payne.
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