Hmmmm...

[Lotar]

I just recieved this in an email today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought two cheeks pressed together was the symbology used in Icons for married Saints who had a sexual relationship.

Is there a problem with iconographers today who are good artists but generally ignorant of the symbology of the art?

 

[RobNJ]

I've also seen it for relatives... such as in the icon of the Prodigal Son

 

[RobNJ]

Such as:

 

[Michael G]

I just recieved this in an email today.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought two cheeks pressed together was the symbology used in Icons for married Saints who had a sexual relationship.

Is there a problem with iconographers today who are good artists but generally ignorant of the symbology of the art?

Where did you get that idea? Two cheeks pressed together in an icon is an embrace, and not always a sexual encounter.

 

[nutroll]

That particular icon of Sts. Peter and Paul is not a new innovation, it has been around for a long time. But apart from that, there are many problems in iconography today. One of those problems is ignorance of theology, but that shouldn't really be a problem. Icons are meant to be copied from older icons. It is the means by which the icon maintains a relationship to its prototype. There are very few times that innovation of any kind is required. If more people could put aside their ego enough to merely transmit, rather than innovate, the theology of icons would remain consistent.

 

[Michael G]

That particular icon of Sts. Peter and Paul is not a new innovation, it has been around for a long time. But apart from that, there are many problems in iconography today. One of those problems is ignorance of theology, but that shouldn't really be a problem. Icons are meant to be copied from older icons. It is the means by which the icon maintains a relationship to its prototype. There are very few times that innovation of any kind is required. If more people could put aside their ego enough to merely transmit, rather than innovate, the theology of icons would remain consistent.

I have to agree with nutroll on the innovation part. There really is not alot of room for innovation in iconography. There are fairly strong guidelines which one follows if one is true to the form of the prototypes. Even when one creates an icon of a rarely depicted saint, as I have just done with St. John the Dwarf, the prototypes dictate much of how the icon is to look. Thus knowing somethings about the saints life, how long he lived, what he did, etc and knowing how the prototypes depict such things in an icon pretty much free the iconographer from any real need to be innovative.

 

[Shubunkin]

I am of the understanding that the saint who holds a cross in an icon was a martyr of the faith. Slowly, I am learning these things.

 

[Michael G]

I am of the understanding that the saint who holds a cross in an icon was a martyr of the faith. Slowly, I am learning these things.

That is true. A saint holding a cross is a martyr, as is one who has a red background, or sometimes the martyr is depicted holding the instrument of his martyrdom.

 

[AureateDawn]

So, in my avatar, the background is red. Martyr. But he isn't holding a cross. He's holding a circly thingy. I thought it was a crown. What could that be?

 

[Michael G]

So, in my avatar, the background is red. Martyr. But he isn't holding a cross. He's holding a circly thingy. I thought it was a crown. What could that be?

In your icon of St. Justin the Martyr he is holding a crown, which is the crown of martyrdom. Notice I said it could be one of the three things that tell you the saint is a martyr. In St. Justin's icon it is the bagkground or his crown. I have attached an icon of St. George that I have written and you will see that in this icon it is the red background. The next icon is St. Alexandra and in her icon the cross tells you she is a martyr.

 

[choirfiend]

Wow, I can't believe we're so attuned to finding error, controversy, and just looking for something to condemn and judge that we're considering our icons suspect merely because we're ignorant about them. We've had a serious problem with negativity on these forums for the last long while, and while this is just one more example, it's especially disheartening.

Love the Church. It's Christ's body. Stop looking for problems and turn one's eyes on one's self. That's where most of the problems in the Body of Christ are located, anyway.

 

[Michael G]

Anyone want a soapbox?

 

[Shubunkin]

Wow, I can't believe we're so attuned to finding error, controversy, and just looking for something to condemn and judge that we're considering our icons suspect merely because we're ignorant about them. We've had a serious problem with negativity on these forums for the last long while, and while this is just one more example, it's especially disheartening.

Love the Church. It's Christ's body. Stop looking for problems and turn one's eyes on one's self. That's where most of the problems in the Body of Christ are located, anyway.

We can't learn about iconography without being criticized? Wow, that's a new one on me.

 

[Michael G]

We can't learn about iconography without being criticized? Wow, that's a new one on me.

It is funny but the person doing the criticizing is guilty of the very thing she accused everyone else of doing in this thread. How ironic?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I have to agree with nutroll on the innovation part. There really is not alot of room for innovation in iconography. There are fairly strong guidelines which one follows if one is true to the form of the prototypes. Even when one creates an icon of a rarely depicted saint, as I have just done with St. John the Dwarf, the prototypes dictate much of how the icon is to look. Thus knowing somethings about the saints life, how long he lived, what he did, etc and knowing how the prototypes depict such things in an icon pretty much free the iconographer from any real need to be innovative.

I do hope there is some precedent of a saint wearing liederhosen and holding a jagermeister... (crossing fingers) lol

 

[Michael G]

I do hope there is some precedent of a saint wearing liederhosen and holding a jagermeister... (crossing fingers) lol

Yeah, I am about to set it! Except it won't be Jaegermeister in his hand, rather Paulaner Hefeweizen!

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Yeah, I am about to set it! Except it won't be Jaegermeister in his hand, rather Paulaner Hefeweizen!

as long as it's not filled with Budweiser. THAT would be heresy!

 

[Michael G]

as long as it's not filled with Budweiser. THAT would be heresy!

It would not be heresy if it was the Budweizen which comes from Budwar in the Czech Republic. Budweizen is one of the best German beers in existence. I won't get into my favorite debate of what exactly constitutes a German because if I did I would note to you that Budwar is in an area of the Czech Republic that originally spoke German. The University of Prague was the first German speaking university in the world. Anyways, I was going to pm you this morning X to let you know that I spent quite a bit of time this morning thinking about how I will depict Heiliger Wolfgang Bischof von Regensburg. I think I will depict him holding the monastary church that he helped reform, wearing his episcopal robes and miter, with his crozier in the other hand. Naturally, the icon will be inscribed auf Deutsch!

 

[Xpycoctomos]

It would not be heresy if it was the Budweizen which comes from Budwar in the Czech Republic. Budweizen is one of the best German beers in existence. I won't get into my favorite debate of what exactly constitutes a German because if I did I would note to you that Budwar is in an area of the Czech Republic that originally spoke German. The University of Prague was the first German speaking university in the world. Anyways, I was going to pm you this morning X to let you know that I spent quite a bit of time this morning thinking about how I will depict Heiliger Wolfgang Bischof von Regensburg. I think I will depict him holding the monastary church that he helped reform, wearing his episcopal robes and miter, with his crozier in the other hand. Naturally, the icon will be inscribed auf Deutsch!

Honestly Michael, as much as we may but heads on politics and some social issues, I am very thankful for your putting time into this.

John

 

[Michael G]

Honestly Michael, as much as we may but heads on politics and some social issues, I am very thankful for your putting time into this.

John

Just pray I don't get tempted to make his chasuble look like lederhosen and that I don't replace the crozier in his hand with a mass (german word for a one liter glass mug) of bier! His miter might also turn into a Bavarian walking hat! I guess I shouldn't listen to any oom-pa-pa tuba music and eat bretzeln while painting it, eh?