His name is Yeshua, should we, knowing this, continue to call Him Jesus?

Jamdoc

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Matthew 1:20-21
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Yeshua: for he shall yoshi'a his people from their sins.

Jesus... is the modern (adding the J) adaptation of the Old English and Latin Iesus, which is a translation of the Greek Ιησούς, which is an approximation (and adding the case ending s sound to fit with normal Greek names) of His actual Hebrew name Yeshua. Being that it's not a Greek name, prior to it being written in the New Testament in Greek, the name Ιησούς means nothing. But the Hebrew Yeshua means "YHWH's salvation", THAT is meaningful, the scripture I cited above from the gospels has beautiful poetry to it when the Hebrew words for His name and what He will do are substituted in, it's wordplay which is common in Hebrew scripture, much of it we miss out on reading translations.

I've heard of Him being referred to as Yeshua before for months, but never thought much on it, until I recently was enlightened on the meaning of the Hebrew name. Now I want to know Him as Yeshua, it's going to take time to get used to changing an old habit, especially when my bible, my congregation, my pastor, and most of the western world still all call Him Jesus. Am I wrong for wanting to do so? Now that I know the real name (and now, even if you did not know prior, now know, having read this thread), should I ever continue to use the name Jesus? Afterall... Acts 4:10-12

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Yeshua Hamashiach of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other [/b]name[/b] under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I'm less adamant about the "Hamashiach" part because Christos is a direct translation of it, meaning "Annointed" in Greek, and it's a title rather than name mostly, it still means something. We know that Christ means the Messiah, the annointed one.
 

tampasteve

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Yeshua, Yashua, Y'shua, Joshua, Jesus, Ihesus, Isa, all are names for "Jesus". I don't think that it truly matters in the end. But if you want to be as close to what the 1st century Jewish people would have called him, then Yashua, Yeshua, or Y'shua are probably the closest.

Yeshua knows who he is, it is OK to call him "Jesus". I myself go back and forth depending on who I am talking to or who I am interacting with. In personal life I lean towards Yeshua. But if I am interacting with mainstream Christians I stick with Jesus. If I am interacting with Messianic Judaism followers then I go with Yeshua.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Matthew 1:20-21


Jesus... is the modern (adding the J) adaptation of the Old English and Latin Iesus, which is a translation of the Greek Ιησούς, which is an approximation (and adding the case ending s sound to fit with normal Greek names) of His actual Hebrew name Yeshua. Being that it's not a Greek name, prior to it being written in the New Testament in Greek, the name Ιησούς means nothing. But the Hebrew Yeshua means "YHWH's salvation", THAT is meaningful, the scripture I cited above from the gospels has beautiful poetry to it when the Hebrew words for His name and what He will do are substituted in, it's wordplay which is common in Hebrew scripture, much of it we miss out on reading translations.

I've heard of Him being referred to as Yeshua before for months, but never thought much on it, until I recently was enlightened on the meaning of the Hebrew name. Now I want to know Him as Yeshua, it's going to take time to get used to changing an old habit, especially when my bible, my congregation, my pastor, and most of the western world still all call Him Jesus. Am I wrong for wanting to do so? Now that I know the real name (and now, even if you did not know prior, now know, having read this thread), should I ever continue to use the name Jesus? Afterall... Acts 4:10-12



I'm less adamant about the "Hamashiach" part because Christos is a direct translation of it, meaning "Annointed" in Greek, and it's a title rather than name mostly, it still means something. We know that Christ means the Messiah, the annointed one.
Variances in language are real. Personally, I always thought it was lame to refer to Him by that name. But everybody has a preference, I suppose.

But separate from that, American society at large understands His name to be "Jesus". Ship's sailed on that so 99% of people you will ever meet will have no idea who "Yeshua" is if you refer to Him by that name.
 
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tampasteve

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Jamdoc

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Yeshua, Yashua, Y'shua, Joshua, Jesus, Ihesus, Isa, all are names for "Jesus". I don't think that it truly matters in the end. But if you want to be as close to what the 1st century Jewish people would have called him, then Yashua, Yeshua, or Y'shua are probably the closest.

Yeshua knows who he is, it is OK to call him "Jesus". I myself go back and forth depending on who I am talking to or who I am interacting with. In personal life I lean towards Yeshua. But if I am interacting with mainstream Christians I stick with Jesus. If I am interacting with Messianic Judaism followers then I go with Yeshua.

I suppose if you were witnessing to Jews you'd use Yeshua as well, because that would mean something more to a Hebrew speaker right?
 
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Jamdoc

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Also, why is this in Traditional Theology?

I wasn't sure exactly which subforum it would belong in but I thought the name of our savior would be a traditional theology matter?
I mean if someone wants to move it to a more appropriate subforum that's fine
 
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tampasteve

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I suppose if you were witnessing to Jews you'd use Yeshua as well, because that would mean something more to a Hebrew speaker right?
Generally, yes. I attend a Messianic Synagogue on occasion and when discussing witnessing to Rabbinic Jews it is recommended to use Yeshua rather than Jesus. For the reason you mention, but also because the name "Jesus" holds some connotations for Jewish people that are not good. Much has been done that is bad to Jewish people "in the name of Jesus".
 
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thecolorsblend

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Why not? Perhaps a Traditional opinion is preferred to a more Liberal or less mainstream opinion.
And...
I wasn't sure exactly which subforum it would belong in but I thought the name of our savior would be a traditional theology matter?
Eh. Maybe. Guess I figured it's more of a GT thing. But hey, it's probably not a bad idea for you to come to traditional Christians like us.
 
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Jamdoc

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And...
Eh. Maybe. Guess I figured it's more of a GT thing. But hey, it's probably not a bad idea for you to come to traditional Christians like us.

it is essentially also because of tradition that people will continue to refer to him by the English adaptation rather than the real name even after learning it right?
 
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thecolorsblend

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it is essentially also because of tradition that people will continue to refer to him by the English adaptation rather than the real name even after learning it right?
Mmm, no, I think I'd put the westernization of His name down to cultural inertia. At this point, 99% of westerners basically know Who you mean when you say "Jesus". That same 99% will probably stare at you like a three year old attempting calculus if you say "Yeshua".

Ship's sailed, my friend. He is "Jesus".

Mind you, I usually sidestep the whole thing by referring to Him as Our Lord.
 
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it is essentially also because of tradition that people will continue to refer to him by the English adaptation rather than the real name even after learning it right?
"...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,​
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11 NKJV​

I believe that God cherishes cultural differences (including languages), so He is pleased with other versions of the Name. :bow:
 
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Jamdoc

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"...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,​
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11 NKJV​

I believe that God cherishes cultural differences (including languages), so He is pleased with other versions of the Name. :bow:
Ultimately He'll have a new name too.
 
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dzheremi

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Thecolorsblend is correct. This definitely does not belong in the Traditional Theology subform, as it's actively against the tradition of the Christian Church.

Imitating the Jews is really silly at best, and theologically suspect at worst. If you don't speak first century Galilean Aramaic natively -- and you don't -- there's no reason to use anything other than Jesus in the English language. Whenever I see someone here on CF use "Yeshua", "Hamasiach" or any of this other stuff, I don't think "Wow! How reverent to be using an approximation of these names and terms in faux-Aramaic/Hebrew!", I think "Oh, here's another person who disregards the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (found in the NT itself, in the Acts of the Apostles), in which Judaizing was condemned from the mouth of the Church herself."

It's like shorthand for "I don't know my history, and because my form of Christianity likely has no apostolic roots itself (NB: You don't see Orthodox or Catholics or the more historically-rooted protestants like traditional Lutherans or traditional Presbyterians advancing this kind of thinking), the only culture I can identify with in the Bible is the Jewish culture, so I think it's somehow more holy or something to act like Judaism is somehow a salvific way of life, hence I ought to imitate the Jews."

No. No you shouldn't. Ministering to Jews is no different than ministering to anyone else, in that Jews are not some kind of special population such that someone who is a Jew and has never believed in Christ and whose religion commands that he or she not do so is to be treated better or differently than anyone else for whom the same is true, e.g., the Muslim, the Shintoist, etc. I do not care if some 'Messianic Jew' says otherwise, because that's not traditional either (Messianic Judaism does not significantly predate the 1960s), and 99.999% of people who describe themselves that way are just run of the mill Protestants of this or that variety who got bored one day and decided to pretend that they're special because they can pronounce "Hanukkah" correctly.

Hymn on Unleavened Bread XVII by St. Ephrem the Syrian (Edmund Beck transl., 1964)

1. Nisan that renews every plant
could not revive the aged People.

Refrain: Blessed is he who rejected the People and their matza
Since their hands were defiled with precious blood!

2. For when the People went forth they bore
leaven of idolatry along with matza.

3. In Egypt Moses forbade them to knead yeasted dough
together with(1) his matza. (Exod 12.15)

4. By this means he taught them not to hide
Egyptian leaven within their mind.

5. Matza is a symbol of the bread of life;
those of old ate the new mystery.

6. Moses disclosed the symbol of the One who renews all
and gave it to gluttons who craved flesh.

7. Meat from the earth weighed them down –
their mind stooped to greed.

8. The earthly ones ate heavenly manna (Exodus 16 etc.)
They became dust on the earth through their sins

9. Spiritual bread flew lightly away
The Gentiles soared up and settled in the midst of Paradise.


14. Matza’s nature is heavy
Symbolising the People that cannot fly.

15. Elijah ate from the pitcher and jug (1 Kings 17.14)
the light symbol that flew through the air

16. It was not a Daughter of Jacob who provided the symbol:
Elijah ate it through that Daughter of the Gentiles (i.e. the widow of Zarephath)

17.If the [mere] symbol of [Christ’s] bread made [Elijah] fly like that (2 Kings 2.11)
How much more may it transport Gentiles to Eden?

+++

St. Ephrem the Syrian (306-373) is venerated in basically every tradition which has kept alive some idea of the communion of saints -- i.e., Orthodoxy, Catholicism, the Church of the East/Nestorians, and the Anglican communion (probably others too, but this is as listed on wiki). His views were not outside of the mainstream of Christianity in his time nor afterwards, and have only become distasteful to Christians for whom the modern secular state of Israel and a very non-traditional eschatology has overwhelmed their desire to actually follow Christianity (hence they identify with and care more for the Jews and their own eschatological vision than for anything like traditional Christianity and Christians), or for those who want to just get along with everyone and hence find such talk to be worthy of an apology to the Jews. That's very much against the holy scriptures, however, and traditional Christians (including some whose churches unfortunately follow this tendency of "let's apologize to the Jews", as below) see nothing to apologize for in what the NT says:


Please note that none of this means that we ought to treat Jews badly for being Jews, but we certainly should not imitate them. The Christian Church has already baptized everything that can be baptized (read: brought into the Church) of Jewish belief and practice, so those who advocate for more on any basis are quite simply wrong to do so.

It has long been recognized by scholars and laymen alike that the most outwardly 'Hebraic' of all Christian traditions -- that of the Ethiopians and Eritreans who follow the traditional Orthodox Tewahedo churches of their homelands -- nevertheless contains strong rebukes of the Jews as written into their liturgical prayers, as during the preparatory prayers of the liturgy they do proclaim "Therefore let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for we know that He Who had to fulfill the Law has come" (by which they mean Jesus, of course).

Besides, those Christians whose languages are closest to the Aramaic of Jesus (still not the same, but since Palestinian Aramaic is no longer spoken, it's the closest you'll get) -- those Christian traditions which keep alive some form of Neo-Aramaic and use Syriac in their liturgies (the Syriac Orthodox, the small number of Eastern Orthodox Assyrians in Russia, various Catholic Syriac people, and the Nestorians) -- don't even do this. In their languages, He is 'Isho Mshiho or 'Isho Mshiha, not Yeshua Hamasiach or whatever.


Prayer in Eastern Syriac pronunciation (i.e., either Chaldean or Nestorian) that uses His name properly. (In the Indian Syriac churches, you can find something like Yeshua, but that's likely first language interference, not a proper pronunciation of the Syriac form of His name. Indians usually can't get the pronunciation of certain sounds in Syriac, like the pharyngealized sounds, or the "th" sounds which become "s" more often than not. This is why I chose a Chaldean or Nestorian above, as they presumably grew up around a modern form of the language in their communities, while the Indian Syriacs usually speak Malayalam, which is totally unrelated to any form of Syriac or Aramaic.)
 
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Jamdoc

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Thecolorsblend is correct. This definitely does not belong in the Traditional Theology subform, as it's actively against the tradition of the Christian Church.

Imitating the Jews is really silly at best, and theologically suspect at worst. If you don't speak first century Galilean Aramaic natively -- and you don't -- there's no reason to use anything other than Jesus in the English language. Whenever I see someone here on CF use "Yeshua", "Hamasiach" or any of this other stuff, I don't think "Wow! How reverent to be using an approximation of these names and terms in faux-Aramaic/Hebrew!", I think "Oh, here's another person who disregards the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem (found in the NT itself, in the Acts of the Apostles), in which Judaizing was condemned from the mouth of the Church herself."

It's like shorthand for "I don't know my history, and because my form of Christianity likely has no apostolic roots itself (NB: You don't see Orthodox or Catholics or the more historically-rooted protestants like traditional Lutherans or traditional Presbyterians advancing this kind of thinking), the only culture I can identify with in the Bible is the Jewish culture, so I think it's somehow more holy or something to act like Judaism is somehow a salvific way of life, hence I ought to imitate the Jews."

No. No you shouldn't. Ministering to Jews is no different than ministering to anyone else, in that Jews are not some kind of special population such that someone who is a Jew and has never believed in Christ and whose religion commands that he or she not do so is to be treated better or differently than anyone else for whom the same is true, e.g., the Muslim, the Shintoist, etc. I do not care if some 'Messianic Jew' says otherwise, because that's not traditional either (Messianic Judaism does not significantly predate the 1960s), and 99.999% of people who describe themselves that way are just run of the mill Protestants of this or that variety who got bored one day and decided to pretend that they're special because they can pronounce "Hanukkah" correctly.

Hymn on Unleavened Bread XVII by St. Ephrem the Syrian (Edmund Beck transl., 1964)

1. Nisan that renews every plant
could not revive the aged People.

Refrain: Blessed is he who rejected the People and their matza
Since their hands were defiled with precious blood!

2. For when the People went forth they bore
leaven of idolatry along with matza.

3. In Egypt Moses forbade them to knead yeasted dough
together with(1) his matza. (Exod 12.15)

4. By this means he taught them not to hide
Egyptian leaven within their mind.

5. Matza is a symbol of the bread of life;
those of old ate the new mystery.

6. Moses disclosed the symbol of the One who renews all
and gave it to gluttons who craved flesh.

7. Meat from the earth weighed them down –
their mind stooped to greed.

8. The earthly ones ate heavenly manna (Exodus 16 etc.)
They became dust on the earth through their sins

9. Spiritual bread flew lightly away
The Gentiles soared up and settled in the midst of Paradise.


14. Matza’s nature is heavy
Symbolising the People that cannot fly.

15. Elijah ate from the pitcher and jug (1 Kings 17.14)
the light symbol that flew through the air

16. It was not a Daughter of Jacob who provided the symbol:
Elijah ate it through that Daughter of the Gentiles (i.e. the widow of Zarephath)

17.If the [mere] symbol of [Christ’s] bread made [Elijah] fly like that (2 Kings 2.11)
How much more may it transport Gentiles to Eden?

+++

St. Ephrem the Syrian (306-373) is venerated in basically every tradition which has kept alive some idea of the communion of saints -- i.e., Orthodoxy, Catholicism, the Church of the East/Nestorians, and the Anglican communion (probably others too, but this is as listed on wiki). His views were not outside of the mainstream of Christianity in his time nor afterwards, and have only become distasteful to Christians for whom the modern secular state of Israel and a very non-traditional eschatology has overwhelmed their desire to actually follow Christianity (hence they identify with and care more for the Jews and their own eschatological vision than for anything like traditional Christianity and Christians), or for those who want to just get along with everyone and hence find such talk to be worthy of an apology to the Jews. That's very much against the holy scriptures, however, and traditional Christians (including some whose churches unfortunately follow this tendency of "let's apologize to the Jews", as below) see nothing to apologize for in what the NT says:


Please note that none of this means that we ought to treat Jews badly for being Jews, but we certainly should not imitate them. The Christian Church has already baptized everything that can be baptized (read: brought into the Church) of Jewish belief and practice, so those who advocate for more on any basis are quite simply wrong to do so.

It has long been recognized by scholars and laymen alike that the most outwardly 'Hebraic' of all Christian traditions -- that of the Ethiopians and Eritreans who follow the traditional Orthodox Tewahedo churches of their homelands -- nevertheless contains strong rebukes of the Jews as written into their liturgical prayers, as during the preparatory prayers of the liturgy they do proclaim "Therefore let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for we know that He Who had to fulfill the Law has come" (by which they mean Jesus, of course).

Besides, those Christians whose languages are closest to the Aramaic of Jesus (still not the same, but since Palestinian Aramaic is no longer spoken, it's the closest you'll get) -- those Christian traditions which keep alive some form of Neo-Aramaic and use Syriac in their liturgies (the Syriac Orthodox, the small number of Eastern Orthodox Assyrians in Russia, various Catholic Syriac people, and the Nestorians) -- don't even do this. In their languages, He is 'Isho Mshiho or 'Isho Mshiha, not Yeshua Hamasiach or whatever.


Prayer in Eastern Syriac pronunciation (i.e., either Chaldean or Nestorian) that uses His name properly. (In the Indian Syriac churches, you can find something like Yeshua, but that's likely first language interference, not a proper pronunciation of the Syriac form of His name. Indians usually can't get the pronunciation of certain sounds in Syriac, like the pharyngealized sounds, or the "th" sounds which become "s" more often than not. This is why I chose a Chaldean or Nestorian above, as they presumably grew up around a modern form of the language in their communities, while the Indian Syriacs usually speak Malayalam, which is totally unrelated to any form of Syriac or Aramaic.)

The real reason to adopt the Hebrew name is not so much to cling to "hebrew roots" or Judaize but rather because the name has a meaning to it, as in it meant something natively, where the adaptation and translation is a made up word that we attach a meaning to, if that makes sense.

I have a little bit more appreciation in knowing that the name literally means "God's salvation", you know?

But by all means, if mods want to move it to General Theology, go for it.
 
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The real reason to adopt the Hebrew name is not so much to cling to "hebrew roots" or Judaize but rather because the name has a meaning to it, as in it meant something natively, where the adaptation and translation is a made up word that we attach a meaning to, if that makes sense.
As an armchair onomast [name nerd], I understand the purist intentions of the OP (not a desire to be a Judaizer), but names do not lose their original meanings when they undergo transliteration. Sometimes the sounds used in one language are not present in the second language, so transliteration is an accessible approximation.

We are free to use the more accurate pronunciation, but it is not a shibboleth* of true Christianity. ;)

*From Hebrew šibbōleṯ ‘ear of corn’, used as a test of nationality by its difficult pronunciation (Judges 12:6).
 
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dzheremi

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The real reason to adopt the Hebrew name is not so much to cling to "hebrew roots" or Judaize but rather because the name has a meaning to it, as in it meant something natively, where the adaptation and translation is a made up word that we attach a meaning to, if that makes sense.

I have a little bit more appreciation in knowing that the name literally means "God's salvation", you know?

And in the original Hebrew, my own name (Jeremy) meant "YHWH exalt"; does that mean I should insist on calling myself and having everyone else call me Yirm'ya, since that's closer to the Hebrew, and the Hebrew has this meaning?

No. Of course not. That would be silly. Jeremy is perfectly fine English, and this not a website about the Hebrew language or Hebrew or Aramaic names. It's about Christianity, and in Christianity (particularly traditional Christianity), this kind of thing is not acceptable.

It would be one thing if you were ministering to Jews in Israel (the only conceivable environment in which it makes sense to use or appeal to Hebrew), but if you're not doing that, it just comes off as being enamored of all these 'deep' cultural things that you are enjoying at the expense of learning Christianity from Christian civilizations, of which there are many (the Greeks, the Slavs, the Ethiopians and Eritreans, the Copts, the Syriacs, the Indians, the Georgians, the Romanians, the Latins, etc.), such that it is really not necessary to ever look to the Jews for anything ever.

There's only one group of Jews that should ever be looked to by Christians in anything, and that is our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ and His family, St. John the Baptist, and the Apostles and Disciples who followed our Lord from among the first Jews. By the time the followers of Christ were cast out of the synagogues, the separation between Christianity and Judaism was complete, to the point that even a second century apologist such as St. Justin Martyr (d. 165) could have developed an apologetic in the form of a refutation of an archetypal Jew (Trypho) which would serve as a kind of model for subsequent interactions. (So it must've been quite early on that Christianity and Judaism separated.)

From the popular YouTube channel Religion For Breakfast, which is run by a Religious Studies Ph.D. candidate, we can speculate as to when the break occurred:


I don't agree with everything in the above video, but no matter what anyone thinks about that question, it is not debatable that it was before the 1960s, when 'Messianic Judaism' was birthed out of Protestantism.
 
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Jamdoc

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And in the original Hebrew, my own name (Jeremy) meant "YHWH exalt"; does that mean I should insist on calling myself and having everyone else call me Yirm'ya, since that's closer to the Hebrew, and the Hebrew has this meaning?

No. Of course not. That would be silly. Jeremy is perfectly fine English, and this not a website about the Hebrew language or Hebrew or Aramaic names. It's about Christianity, and in Christianity (particularly traditional Christianity), this kind of thing is not acceptable.

It would be one thing if you were ministering to Jews in Israel (the only conceivable environment in which it makes sense to use or appeal to Hebrew), but if you're not doing that, it just comes off as being enamored of all these 'deep' cultural things that you are enjoying at the expense of learning Christianity from Christian civilizations, of which there are many (the Greeks, the Slavs, the Ethiopians and Eritreans, the Copts, the Syriacs, the Indians, the Georgians, the Romanians, the Latins, etc.), such that it is really not necessary to ever look to the Jews for anything ever.

There's only one group of Jews that should ever be looked to by Christians in anything, and that is our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ and His family, St. John the Baptist, and the Apostles and Disciples who followed our Lord from among the first Jews. By the time the followers of Christ were cast out of the synagogues, the separation between Christianity and Judaism was complete, to the point that even a second century apologist such as St. Justin Martyr (d. 165) could have developed an apologetic in the form of a refutation of an archetypal Jew (Trypho) which would serve as a kind of model for subsequent interactions. (So it must've been quite early on that Christianity and Judaism separated.)

From the popular YouTube channel Religion For Breakfast, which is run by a Religious Studies Ph.D. candidate, we can speculate as to when the break occurred:


I don't agree with everything in the above video, but no matter what anyone thinks about that question, it is not debatable that it was before the 1960s, when 'Messianic Judaism' was birthed out of Protestantism.

Insisting others do it? No. But when you know the meaning of the name is something God Glorifying, don't you appreciate that? My reason for liking the Hebrew name is because it has a poetic meaning in Hebrew. That's all it is.
 
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dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
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I appreciate lots of things that I don't go around inserting into perfectly understandable and not-LARPing English conversations. It's why I don't introduce my posts with traditional Coptic-language formulae or whatever else that's appropriate in its own context, but not here.

The difference is that the context that would make it appropriate to use Hebrew is not here, and never will be here barring some sort of influx of native Hebrew speakers, so it comes across as a Protestant form of name-worshiping, which really isn't better any than the original version.
 
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