Hillary would have abolished the 2nd Amendent.

Would Hillary Clinton have abolished the 2nd Amendment?


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The Brown Brink

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Enforcement of existing laws is pitiful.

I remember a statistic around 80% of crimes involving a firearm are committed by criminals ineligible to legally own the firearm.

Most firearm possession charges are merely part of stacked charges bargained down by prosecutors.

Gun law #1 needs to be enforce existing laws to the maximum.

Why let criminals off easy while piling on prohibitive ownership laws for the law abiding?



I agree that we should enforce gun laws.

But I don't agree that treating guns like cars is prohibitive to ownership.
"Car laws" don't seem to prohibit car ownership much.

What's the problem with applying such logic to guns?

Really.
What is it?
 
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Shiloh Raven

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"If Crooked Hillary got elected, you would not have a 2nd Amendment, believe me."
-Donald Trump, September 22nd, 2017 at an Alabama rally.

It seems an odd thing to rally on seeing as I was just told yesterday that Donald never talks about the election or his opponent anymore.

Do you believe him that Hillary would have abolished the 2nd Amendment?

We really have no way of knowing, but what do you believe?

Is he still going on about that? I didn't see or read anything about this particular speech, so I'll ask, did he make another suggestion that the 'Second Amendment people' could take care of her?

Trump: 'Second Amendment people' could stop Clinton

Trump suggests '2nd Amendment people' could stop Clinton

Donald Trump Suggests ‘Second Amendment People’ Could Act Against Hillary Clinton

 
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Tanj

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OK.

I thought we were talking about the US.

I put forward the Czech model as an example of sensible gun laws that do NOT prohibit law abiding citizens from owning guns and still result in a low gun crime rate.
 
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The Brown Brink

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I've heard people blame the National Rifle Association...
Lobbying and all that...
But of course, the NRA would WANT to keep lax laws...
No wonder they lobby for them...
And, if the NRA is responsible...how can it be so successful...flying in the face of common sense...?

Are we silly?
 
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Strathos

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I am fairly certain that there are major cities that have STRICT gun control yet high crime. In fact the city with the highest murder rate is KNOWN for their strict gun control ( or one of the highest not sure if it still holds the top spot.

One thing you have to take into account is how many guns are already in circulation. Obviously gun control will be less effective if everyone already has guns.
 
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Strathos

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I wish someone would explain to me why gun people are so very much against common-sense gun control...

I get the feeling that they don't have a sensible reason...

Is that it?
Just unreasonableness...?

They're very paranoid. They think even the slightest restriction to gun ownership, even if it's something as innocuous as a background check for criminal activity and mental health issues, is a stepping stone to the government marching in to their homes, taking all of their guns, and throwing them in jail.
 
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rambot

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"If Crooked Hillary got elected, you would not have a 2nd Amendment, believe me."
-Donald Trump, September 22nd, 2017 at an Alabama rally.

It seems an odd thing to rally on seeing as I was just told yesterday that Donald never talks about the election or his opponent anymore.

Do you believe him that Hillary would have abolished the 2nd Amendment?

We really have no way of knowing, but what do you believe?
I believe little donny is willing to say absolutely anything. And if he can say anything without regard to considering truth i start with assuming what he says is at LEAST baseless if not a lie.
To believe that is paranoid but to give it air is pure manipulation
 
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381465

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I agree that we should enforce gun laws.

But I don't agree that treating guns like cars is prohibitive to ownership.
"Car laws" don't seem to prohibit car ownership much.

What's the problem with applying such logic to guns?

Really.
What is it?

I'm not sure what you're talking about with cars. I didn't mention anything about cars.

I'm saying...what is the point of legislating more and more regulations for legal gun ownership when the majority of gun crimes are committed with stolen firearms AND we are not enforcing gun laws against prohibited persons.
Why more laws for anything when we are not enforcing the one's we have.
I have no problem with criminal background checks and proficiency training for carry permits. But neither of those are driving gun related crimes in America.
 
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381465

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But it's my understanding that most people in America DO want sensible gun laws...
So are most of us just...ignoring this?

Are we ALLOWING paranoid, unreasonable people to put us in jeopardy?

Why?

Every licensed gun dealer in the US is regulated and audited by the ATF. Every firearm sold by a dealer requires registration to owner with firearm ID. Every sale requires an ATF criminal background check at time of sale. No pass = No gun.

Every state, that I'm aware of, issuing carry permits requires application, background checks, fingerprinting, classes regarding use of firearm for defense and many of those require a live fire proficiency test.

What do you think is lacking from America's gun laws?
 
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The Brown Brink

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Every licensed gun dealer in the US is regulated and audited by the ATF. Every firearm sold by a dealer requires registration to owner with firearm ID. Every sale requires an ATF criminal background check at time of sale. No pass = No gun.

Every state, that I'm aware of, issuing carry permits requires application, background checks, fingerprinting, classes regarding use of firearm for defense and many of those require a live fire proficiency test.

What do you think is lacking from America's gun laws?


Well...I've heard that I can buy a gun at a gun show...but I can't buy a car at a car show...

Because cars are more strictly regulated than guns...

I've heard that...but I haven't looked it up for myself yet...
 
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The Brown Brink

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I just looked it up.

There's actually something called a "gun show loop-hole" whereby anyone can sell anyone a gun without licensing or registration or background check.

We don't do cars this way.
Why do we do guns this way?

Surely this is unreasonable.
 
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381465

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Well...I've heard that I can buy a gun at a gun show...but I can't buy a car at a car show...

Because cars are more strictly regulated than guns...

I've heard that...but I haven't looked it up for myself yet...

I've heard that too...but the closest thing I have ever verified is that a dealer was at a gun show in MD (a state restricting in state sales of magazines over 10 rounds) and the dealer sold a 20 round magazine to someone. The dealer didn't know the law and was arrested by ATF on site.
Admittedly, I have only been to 3 gun shows (mostly out of curiosity) and I never saw or heard of the famous "psssst hey buddy" transaction.
ATF is active in auditing dealers and monitoring sales.
A dealer could not explain having a firearm(s) registered to them for sale and then it disappears. They are audited frequently. They fail by not having the gun in their possession or showing the federal form for the sale and legal owner or they are charged with federal crimes and put out of business.

There are lots of laws regulating legal firearms sales and legal owners. But regulatory laws only work for the honest and law abiding. We do a poor job of convicting and punishing criminals in possession of stolen firearms. It is usually the first count thrown out by state's attorneys to facilitate a sweetheart plea deal to avoid court.

I'm sure that there are some legal firearms owners committing crimes with firearms, but not nearly the number of criminals that can't legally own a gun so they steal them or buy them from someone who stole them.
I do wish there was a way to filter the legal firearms owners that have committed terror attacks. I think that San Bernardino and Miami shooters had legally procured guns. But that means they had no criminal records to prevent sale. I also thought that Dylan Roof had a legally procured handgun and that the ATF dropped the ball in clearing the sale to the dealer as Roof had a criminal record...I may be mistaken.

If punishment for possessing a firearm illegally was severe and enforced, it would certainly help.
 
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381465

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I just looked it up.

There's actually something called a "gun show loop-hole" whereby anyone can sell anyone a gun without licensing or registration or background check.

We don't do cars this way.
Why do we do guns this way?

Surely this is unreasonable.

I've heard of the gun show loophole and it has many definitions.

I think it is probably individuals taking advantage of a gun show and selling individual to individual in parking lots, etc. It does not mean that licensed dealers sell without background checks.

I would not be opposed to individuals having to complete background checks between individuals. As a matter of fact, several states have laws in place to do just that. Criminals don't obey the laws. They should be punished. They rarely are.

Politicians love to scream about more gun laws. It sounds great. They won't tell you that the existing laws are not enforced much. That doesn't sound so great.
 
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