High IQ Christians

[timf]

It seems that intelligence is good if we can still be surprised and in awe of how God can use us, even in secular things.

I think what you are describing is humility. If one can consider intelligence as incidental, it is possible not to lose perspective.

i worked on a crisis hotline for a few years and when I started, I noticed in a log book (where people could leave messages for others on different shifts) a guy who was leaving mentioned that when he started, he always said a prayer for guidance each shift. I thought this was particularly sound advice and decided I would copy the practice.

Over the years I would notice that I could say things that were particularly helpful and even profound that I knew were not coming from me. In mentioning this experience once to a pastor, he mentioned that he had observed the same thing when preaching.

I see intelligence as simply a tool. One can become arrogant as a master carpenter because he has a great hammer or he can be grateful that God has given him the tools to do great work.

 

[anx66]

I've deleted my post. My comments weren't out of love .

Anx66

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

High IQ is equal opportunity considering some serial killers also score at that level. IQ does not equal being right in ones mind.

160? Surprised you aren't crazy...

I'm a dummy compared to some of the people here. I took a practice test from Mensa and got like 118 or something. I took the WAIS-IV and they estimated my IQ at about 114 (It wasn't a full test, I don't think, which I don't know what it was if it was not the full test). My verbal IQ is the highest, next reasoning. Processing speed and working memory are in the toilet, far below average, in fact. When I took the Rey Auditory Learning Test, the person facilitating the test said I did better than they would. I did a battery of tests for scientific research for my mental illness.

The mental illness I have is a severe and fairly rare mental illness called Schizoaffective Disorder which occurs in roughly .3% of the population. I've read some research that says people who have a high IQ recover from what I have been diagnosed with better.

If you combined the fact that I am about a standard deviation above average in IQ and my mental illness, it should be pretty clear that I am a social outcast.

Even though I am not all that intelligent, I get told I am smart quite often. Don't know why.

I think wisdom is putting knowledge into practice. Many people have the intelligence to do a great many things, but they never do anything with all that brain power - they are too busy navel-gazing and are obsessed with being intelligent. The people who are very intelligent and do something with their brains usually are very successful and not as concerned about IQ even to the point that they may have no idea how intelligent they are.

Some Christians who probably have a very high IQ are:
William Lane Craig
Richard Swinburne
Alvin Plantinga

Just three.

 

[timf]

Having a higher IQ can cause people to resent you. Having a higher IQ can help you solve problems a little quicker than others which can also cause resentment.

Being seen as "odd" usually means that one will not be able to swim in the social mainstream. However, this is not as cataclysmic as some might think.

There can be some very interesting people on the fringe that you might not have a chance to meet if we were more completely integrated into today's modern social fabric.

For a Christian there can be a decided advantage in rising above the limits of denominational Christianity as one begins to see connections in the bible that are not generally made. For example, consider the following verses and see if there is a connection;

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Having a higher IQ can cause people to resent you. Having a higher IQ can help you solve problems a little quicker than others which can also cause resentment.

Being seen as "odd" usually means that one will not be able to swim in the social mainstream. However, this is not as cataclysmic as some might think.

There can be some very interesting people on the fringe that you might not have a chance to meet if we were more completely integrated into today's modern social fabric.

For a Christian there can be a decided advantage in rising above the limits of denominational Christianity as one begins to see connections in the bible that are not generally made. For example, consider the following verses and see if there is a connection;

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Do you think that is what Jesus saw in those OT verses? I agree that being "born again" is part of the new covenant. It is a perplexing thing that this was said to Nicodemus before Pentecost.

 

[timf]

It is possible that these verse have to do with the kingdom offer to the nation of Israel. The first covenant required the agreement of the entire nation.

Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

The nation of Israel seems to have failed to accept the offer of the kingdom and the second or "new" covenant. As a result, the temple was destroyed in 70AD and the people of Israel were disbursed.

All that was left was the gospel of individual salvation that Paul introduced. One might anticipate that when the "time of the gentiles" is concluded, that things will revert back to Israel and a remnant will finally receive the kingdom.

We can see that there were two gospels running parallel to each other

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

We can see that there were two gospels running parallel to each other

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Not sure I agree.

Galatians 2:6 NAS20
“But from those who were of considerable repute (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no favoritism)—well, those who were of repute contributed nothing to me.”

Unless you think Paul preached a better Gospel and Peter preached an infirior Gospel, it does not square well that there were two separate Gosples.

Ephesians 2:17–22 NAS20
“And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

 

[timf]

I wasn't suggesting acceptance, but consideration. I don't see an inferior / superior relationship between two gospels. I see an apples and oranges relationship. The gospel of the kingdom offered to the nation of Israel being distinct from the gospel which offered individual and immediate salvation by being placed into the "body of Christ".

I see believing Jews as members of the body of Christ and also expecting the immanent return of Jesus to establish the kingdom.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

If you are skeptical or reject this construct, no problem. I had hoped that those with a high IQ might be able to discuss such possibilities without the emotional invective often found in discussions of religion. So I appreciate your response of "not sure"

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

If you are skeptical or reject this construct, no problem. I had hoped that those with a high IQ might be able to discuss such possibilities without the emotional invective often found in discussions of religion. So I appreciate your response of "not sure"

Charity toward another's PoV is very important to the Christian life (even though it does not seem many Christians know this or try and implement it). Quote from Augustine:

Further let me ask of my reader, wherever, alike with myself, he is certain, there to go on with me; wherever, alike with myself, he hesitates, there to join with me in inquiring; wherever he recognizes himself to be in error, there to return to me; wherever he recognizes me to be so, there to call me back: so that we may enter together upon the path of charity, and advance towards Him of whom it is said, “Seek His face evermore.”

 

[Richard.20.12]

I would think in general there may not be a lot of interest titled that way. An expectation for a group more lacking in humility is one glaring reason.

For instance, I opened the thread just to see what it was about, only to find posts looking down on those perceived as holding a lesser intelligence, which is why I personally wouldn't be interested in such a group. There's enough people who look down their noses at others in life, don't need a church group joining that crowd....

"Do you see a person wise in their own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for them." Proverbs 26:12, Isaiah 5:21

I think wisdom is different than intelligence, an ignorant man can be wise, but wisdom is often more difficult for those of higher intelligence.

Sometimes intelligence is a barrier to faith, certainly something that must be overcome, as the Bible says:

1 Corinthians 1:18-19 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

When you know so much so easily, faith in Christ is confusingly simple. I would say intelligence hindered me.

Then when I finally understood the Gospel message, I found it just crazy simple... lol. I find it amazing that it took God Himself to open my eyes, but God made it that way, likely so no one could boast in anything but God. Certainly not me.

I've noticed that the more accomplished one feels the less one tends to feel the need for a connection to a Heavenly Father. Which is rather ironic since that's where all the stuff bolstering the ego of the accomplished originated. We tend to come to God through need. Someone that "has it all" and is constantly revered by those around them, is less likely to reach out to Jesus for forgiveness as they feel they made the right choices and everyone around them echoes this sentiment. It's very dangerous being surrounded by "yes men". Yet almost everyone at the top of their field is.
Another problem that befalls the very intellectually gifted is that they tend to be very busy as everyone wants a part of that brain of theirs. So they tend to work an inordinate amount leaving precious little time for spiritual reflection, Bible study or just congregating with other believers.
All these things tug them away from God. They really are the curses of the intellectually blessed.
On the other hand I've met people brilliant in very specific areas, areas an IQ test would have a very slim chance of noticing. We need IQ tests in many, many areas of human life. Maybe they have them but we sure don't hear about them.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I didn’t expect to encounter the negative reactions to this “club” when I made the post. I did cite my observation that I thought Satan’s course for the world seemed to divert a substantial percentage of people with high IQs away from Christianity through the influence of colleges. I don’t remember saying I thought people with a high IQ were “better”.

If a person who is 6‘3“ tall says he is 6‘ 3“ tall is he bragging or think he is better than others. I am 6‘ 3“ and once had a guy work for me that was 5‘ 4“. It always seemed that when we were in the file room I was looking through a drawer on the bottom and he was looking through a drawer on the top. We would often just look at each other and shake our heads.

IQ, like height, is biologically derived. Wisdom is available to any who ask in faith (James 1). Foolishness (the lack of wisdom) is condemned. The lack of intelligence is not condemned. The bible translates the Greek word idiotes as “unlearned” (1 Cor 14:23). It originally meant one who did not participate in the activity of the polis (city) because he was selfish and more interested in his own affairs. (The word idiosyncratic) still carries this individual component.

Over time the lack of participation was attributed to a lesser ability and subsequently came to be used of a common soldier rather than an officer or of a commoner as opposed to a magistrate.

I had hoped that by creating this “club” I might draw out others to share their observations and in the process provide many of us the opportunity to benefit from their observations, speculations, and even inquires. I would think with a ratio of lurker to poster of 100:1 that there is a lot of untapped value in those who might be enticed to share their thoughts and observations.

However comparisons to serial killers, accusations of lacking in humility, and other similar facile comments may be typical of Internet trolls but hardly typify the loving fellowship that is supposed to identify Christians. Falling short of even civility, such pollution of a social environment would drive away the very people I was desiring to draw out.

Considering that Paul rebuked the Corinthians for taking their disputes to be settled by unbelievers and asked if there were none with wisdom among themselves, it would seem that it is not uncommon for Christians to be oblivious to the benefits that could be obtained by recognizing that which could be of value.

If it turns out that this “club” cannot be used by those whose insights would have value, I will probably ask the moderators to delete it. However, if there are those who might have otherwise been inclined to share their thoughts, I would be more than happy to get a PM so that such a person would not have to risk a public harangue.

I think it's a very interesting post. Don't even think of deleting it. You'll need to clarify your thoughts from time to time but that's OK and is typical of forums. Our society worships problem solvers but doesn't focus much on the far greater aspect of wisdom and the ability to step back to see if it's really worth the expenditure of time. Just because you can create something doesn't mean you should. Look at phones in society. They are responsible for more divisions in families, more alienation of spouses, more cheating, more backbiting and gossip, than anything. Yet they are heralded as some tech marvel. People's reliance on phones is just pathetic these days. It's the reason it's so hard to get people to formulate a consensus in their own mind about anything. They need an internet connected device to spit out a lightning quick answer, devoid of depth or much reasoning, that will satisfy their present needs or wants. And for most today their want is their need. "If you can it doesn't mean you should" should be on a lot of bumpers to encourage others to really ponder what they do in their life.
So just because someone is good at solving problems and thereby makes a pile of money doesn't in any way mean they are more valuable. Rather they are simply making different choices. Because 99% of the people that make a lot of money spend little time with their spouse or children, who then get alienated and when they become teenagers have by then lost any respect for their parents they ever had so they won't listen to well meaning advice and make gargantuan mistakes that can demolish much in their life. Then that intellectually gifted person reflects on their life and wonders how all that wealth accumulated could fix the problem they now have, like with children that are detached emotionally from their parents. And its then they realize that money can NOT buy anything. In fact it really can't buy anything truly valuable at all.
I think this post is one of the most important I've ever seen on this website simply because of how so many worship "success" today. And yes, Christians fall prey to these influences as well.