High church or Low church ?

Christoph Maria

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“I EXPECT six clergymen to dine with me on such a day,” said a gentleman to his butler. “Very good, sir,” said the butler. “Are they High Church or Low Church, sir?” “What on earth can that signify to you?” asked the astonished master. “Everything, sir,” was the reply. “If they are High Church, they’ll drink; if they are Low Church, they’ll eat!”
(I hope I didn't offend anyone by posting this old joke...;) )

Well - I am aware that it is a matter of taste, and not of theology

(at least in the C of E it isn't)! But how about it? What do You
like best - and why?


How important are traditions and rituals for You?

As for me (former member of the RCC), it is High church

of course...


Our-Tradition_4JKPGacFbkR34YBhSHspyQ.jpg


Speaking only for myself: It has to do with dignity

as well as security and familiarity, that rituals
and outer settings can provide.


So: What about You?







 

Athanasius377

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(I hope I didn't offend anyone by posting this old joke...;) )

Well - I am aware that it is a matter of taste, and not of theology

(at least in the C of E it isn't)! But how about it? What do You
like best - and why?


How important are traditions and rituals for You?

As for me (former member of the RCC), it is High church

of course...


Our-Tradition_4JKPGacFbkR34YBhSHspyQ.jpg


Speaking only for myself: It has to do with dignity

as well as security and familiarity, that rituals
and outer settings can provide.


So: What about You?






I know I am in the minority here but as a Reformed Anglican I’m staunchly low church. Meaning BCP services and the Presbyter wearing a cassock surplice and a tippet. No altar just a the holy
Table adorned in a fair linen cloth with the Presbyter facing North reading the service as written (per the rubrics of the 1662 bcp). The dignity comes from the Word being read publicly as prayer. That reflects the theology of the prayer book. I could care less about most of the ceremonies because some are in no way Anglican they are Roman in origin. Romanticism hit the COE hard. Not to be confused with Romanism. Different movements but wind up in a similar place.

In fact most of what goes around as Anglican is largely a 19th century invention and innovation. All the language about patristic consensus and the undivided church is wishful thinking. If you think I’m wrong just read the early church fathers for yourself at Newadvent.com. I mean read the entire work of an ECF not just what is quoted in Jurgens. Then read all the canons and decrees of the seven councils and you’ll see what I am referring to. Especially the seventh council whose findings and reasoning is frankly a dumpster fire.

A. Probably the only reformed Anglican on CF. Cheers.
 
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Paidiske

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True story: I used to work as a verger for the Cathedral in Melbourne. And when we had ordinations (which were typically big, like fifteen or more ordinands at a time), we would have to estimate how much wine we would need. We worked on a rule of thumb of a hundred congregants per ordinand, but would reduce the amount of wine if many ordinands were known to be low church, or increase it if many were high church, as even at communion there was a noticeable difference in how much they received from the chalice.

If I were to have my own preference (not for what anyone else likes, wants, or needs!), I would prefer simplicity. Strip out a lot of what I once heard referred to as the "bric-a-brac of holiness" and go for uncluttered words, space, colour, music and so on; let the central things take central place and give them the space to have an impact. That's not exactly a high/low church thing (after all, Cistercians have that kind of simplicity in some ways), but often high church comes with so much ornamentation that I personally find it distracting and overwhelming; whereas a more low church style is simpler.

I would probably prefer a worship style which is what I think of as old school low church; prayer book, choir habit, and so on. But the fact is that in my context such parishes barely exist any more. There are none in this diocese, and perhaps only one or two in the diocese in which I previously served. Those which aren't holding onto liturgy and vestments out of high church sensibilities have become indistinguishable from Baptist or Pentecostal churches. So I have ended up working in more high church places not because that's what I chose but because that's where the doors opened for me.
 
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Shane R

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There are liturgical fetishists on both ends of the spectrum. On one end I've seen guys proudly announce that they have monthly Communion and do a midweek service from the 1552 BCP. On the other there're guys who don't know how to do a service that doesn't have Mass or at least Adoration and order every Missal reprint that the bookstore catalogues put out. The low guys can't preach without sounding like a seminary professor and the uber-high guys too often preach as though they didn't even look at the lections prior to the service.

I don't even own an academic hood because I've never felt inclined to wear one. I prize bright white and vibrant color on my vestments more than my grandmother's lace knickers being sewn on at the ends of the sleeves and the lower hem. I would rather have daily Offices than daily Mass at the clergy retreats. However, I hold weekly Holy Communion and also on Festal days. I hear private confessions if asked. I am thinking about getting a 10 Commandments board for my home chapel but I've also got colored curtains and candles in there.

I prefer to limit the music program but that's more a function of having seldom served at a parish with competent musical support and having had vocal chord problems long ago than any hostility to well done music.
 
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Paidiske

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I realise I'm about to ask something to which I may not want to hear the answer, but surely no priest would refuse to hear a private confession if asked?

I'll admit in eight years of ministry I can still count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been asked, but still... it's part of the role, and it matters!
 
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seeking.IAM

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Definitely high church. It's precisely why I'm here. I was a member of another denomination that got so low I fled it. I fear stepping away from high church is a slippery slope toward tambourines, multi-media presentations, clergy in blue jeans with their shirttail out, and the praise band. :liturgy:^_^ :wineglass:


10713016_10204534698154772_2065541351669681665_n.jpg
 
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The Liturgist

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There are liturgical fetishists on both ends of the spectrum. On one end I've seen guys proudly announce that they have monthly Communion and do a midweek service from the 1552 BCP. On the other there're guys who don't know how to do a service that doesn't have Mass or at least Adoration and order every Missal reprint that the bookstore catalogues put out. The low guys can't preach without sounding like a seminary professor and the uber-high guys too often preach as though they didn't even look at the lections prior to the service.

I don't even own an academic hood because I've never felt inclined to wear one. I prize bright white and vibrant color on my vestments more than my grandmother's lace knickers being sewn on at the ends of the sleeves and the lower hem. I would rather have daily Offices than daily Mass at the clergy retreats. However, I hold weekly Holy Communion and also on Festal days. I hear private confessions if asked. I am thinking about getting a 10 Commandments board for my home chapel but I've also got colored curtains and candles in there.

I prefer to limit the music program but that's more a function of having seldom served at a parish with competent musical support and having had vocal chord problems long ago than any hostility to well done music.

Indeed, at the Episcopal Church I was a member of I preferred to attend the said services for reasons similar to what you describe.
 
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Shane R

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surely no priest would refuse to hear a private confession if asked?
I have a snarky comment, forgive me. Indeed, no priest refuses to hear confession; it's always the clergy who are so evangelical or reformational that they shun the title 'priest' that are prone to refuse. I thought it was fairly common within that subset.

I've seen clergy who, rather than take the 3 minutes to hear the confession, will spend 30 arguing with the penitent over why it's not necessary or a good idea. There are also a fair number of clergy who are at a total loss as to how to go about doing it. Perhaps they've never been instructed or there's not an authorized rite in their diocese.

Not totally related, but I've seen this mentality when it comes to immersion baptisms as well. There are certain clergy who will nearly fight the family to get them to use the font in the chapel. I've never been opposed to going down to the local water hole. There's also a Roman Catholic church up in town that is outfitted with a proper baptistry.
 
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Paidiske

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Far out. I'm sure many of my more evangelical colleagues don't hear any confessions, because their congregants don't even know to ask. But to outright refuse, or even argue, if asked? Someone comes wanting to unburden themselves and be assured of God's forgiveness and you... say no? Boggles my mind.

I'll give the diocese I was trained in this; every one of us, as part of post-ordination training, was given clear instruction on the basic process of hearing a confession, and the legalities around it. The thinking seemed to be that we might never do it, but we all needed to know how. (If there were not an authorised rite in the diocese I can see that that might give one more pause for thought).

If I push the family over anything to do with baptism, it's more likely to try to dissuade them from private baptism and encourage them into having it as part of a normal service. I don't always win, though; and I don't fight hard enough to refuse if they really have their hearts set on a private baptism.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have a snarky comment, forgive me. Indeed, no priest refuses to hear confession; it's always the clergy who are so evangelical or reformational that they shun the title 'priest' that are prone to refuse. I thought it was fairly common within that subset.

I've seen clergy who, rather than take the 3 minutes to hear the confession, will spend 30 arguing with the penitent over why it's not necessary or a good idea. There are also a fair number of clergy who are at a total loss as to how to go about doing it. Perhaps they've never been instructed or there's not an authorized rite in their diocese.

Not totally related, but I've seen this mentality when it comes to immersion baptisms as well. There are certain clergy who will nearly fight the family to get them to use the font in the chapel. I've never been opposed to going down to the local water hole. There's also a Roman Catholic church up in town that is outfitted with a proper baptistry.

Does this happen in your jurisdiction out of curiosity? The reason I ask is that I got the sense that your diocese was very high church.
 
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Paidiske

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Out of curiosity do any high church Anglican priests ever get trained in how to do immersion baptism of infants or is that strictly an Orthodox thing?

I was in a class where the lecturer was definitely pushing full immersion as the norm for everyone. But trained in how, as in the actual practical logistics, no, not really.

I have found parents don't want it, though. I sometimes suggest the possibility, but they want what they've always known. The closest I've come was baptising a five-year-old by affusion in a paddling pool (as in, she was in water up to her knees and we poured lots of water over her); but I got away with that because it was my own child!

(Side note: Some paddling pools aren't all that robust. It's fairly easy for them to spring a leak. And messy when they do. I would be more careful about my choice of equipment in future...).
 
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Shane R

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Out of curiosity do any high church Anglican priests ever get trained in how to do immersion baptism of infants or is that strictly an Orthodox thing?
Trained, I'm not sure. I have seen some do it. Of course there is a possibility that they were formerly Orthodox priests.

Does this happen in your jurisdiction out of curiosity? The reason I ask is that I got the sense that your diocese was very high church.
Most of the low church clergy tend to find their way to the UECNA or REC. We probably have clergy who haven't heard confession but none that would refuse. I had in mind certain segments of . . . Another North American group- a very 3 streams oriented group.
 
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Deegie

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If I push the family over anything to do with baptism, it's more likely to try to dissuade them from private baptism and encourage them into having it as part of a normal service. I don't always win, though; and I don't fight hard enough to refuse if they really have their hearts set on a private baptism.

How interesting. At least in my part of TEC, private baptisms are no longer done (barring extreme circumstances). I've had a few ask over the years and have always refused. In fact, our 1979 BCP states that baptism "is appropriately administered within the Eucharist as the chief service on a Sunday or other feast". So at least I have a pretty good leg to stand on.

And, despite being fairly high church myself, I serve at a very middle of the road parish. Even though I announce the availability of private confession every Lent, I rarely if ever get any takers. I'd also prefer incense at every service, but that is not a battle worth waging.
 
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Arcangl86

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I'm discovering as I'm exploring my faith more and more that I am firmly Anglo-Catholic, but liturgically more and more "low church" but in a historical Anglican sense. Where I would depart from that is the wearing of Eucharistic vestments for Mass, but even with that I find I prefer simpler vestments and movements. In my Anglican Worship class in seminary I was introduced to a book by Bishop Wayne Smith called "Admirable Simplicity" and found that it really resonated strongly with me.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm discovering as I'm exploring my faith more and more that I am firmly Anglo-Catholic, but liturgically more and more "low church" but in a historical Anglican sense. Where I would depart from that is the wearing of Eucharistic vestments for Mass, but even with that I find I prefer simpler vestments and movements. In my Anglican Worship class in seminary I was introduced to a book by Bishop Wayne Smith called "Admirable Simplicity" and found that it really resonated strongly with me.

I’ll have to check that book out. Is it available as an ebook?
 
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The Liturgist

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How interesting. At least in my part of TEC, private baptisms are no longer done (barring extreme circumstances). I've had a few ask over the years and have always refused. In fact, our 1979 BCP states that baptism "is appropriately administered within the Eucharist as the chief service on a Sunday or other feast". So at least I have a pretty good leg to stand on.

And, despite being fairly high church myself, I serve at a very middle of the road parish. Even though I announce the availability of private confession every Lent, I rarely if ever get any takers. I'd also prefer incense at every service, but that is not a battle worth waging.

Out of curiosity do you get incense at any service?
 
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