Hi. Made this account to seek wisdom and advice

[Sonnessa]

Hello brothers and sisters. I am currently a 22 year old struggling with OCD and God's mercy and wrath. I started making vows around the age of 16 and usually I typically make it around asking for punishment for committing a sin and breaking the vow as an incentive to keep it. Most recently I've asked to be killed in a plane crash if I didn't stop doing sexual sin after vowing not to do it again. I think even after repenting you can still experience punishment for doing the sin. The problem is my friends are really trying to push to go on a trip at the end of August and I don't know what to tell them. I'm afraid. I can't just tell them since we planned this (didn't know we would be flying) and now I feel constricted. I don't want to end like Anais and Sapphira or the corinthians eatings the lords supper wrongly (both killed because of sin) but at the same time I'm being told to trust God's mercy. I'm so confused. Some advice and prayer would be helpful thanks.

 

[rhomphaeam]

Hello brothers and sisters. I am currently a 22 year old struggling with OCD and God's mercy and wrath. I started making vows around the age of 16 and usually I typically make it around asking for punishment for committing a sin and breaking the vow as an incentive to keep it. Most recently I've asked to be killed in a plane crash if I didn't stop doing sexual sin after vowing not to do it again. I think even after repenting you can still experience punishment for doing the sin. The problem is my friends are really trying to push to go on a trip at the end of August and I don't know what to tell them. I'm afraid. I can't just tell them since we planned this (didn't know we would be flying) and now I feel constricted. I don't want to end like Anais and Sapphira or the corinthians eatings the lords supper wrongly (both killed because of sin) but at the same time I'm being told to trust God's mercy. I'm so confused. Some advice and prayer would be helpful thanks.

The gospel is not founded on making vows to seek God's punishment because we have broken our vows when we wanted to answer our own sin. Let God answer your sin in Christ. How to answer that question is the beginning of faith. Ananias and Sapphire were judged unto death in the visibility of the church in Jerusalem and that, because they sinned by lying against the Holy Spirit in the hearing of the church in Jerusalem. I assume that you are not fornicating in the visibility of the church either before or after you break bread.

There may well be consequences for sin even after confessing and repenting. But repenting must be true and not a contraction of ideas predicated on a mistaken understanding of the shed blood of Christ. In truth the Father will only discipline us when our repentance is true. When we construct repentance then He will simply turn away from hearing our prayers - other than prayers that come from a sincere heart to please Him regardless of our mistaken attitude.

If the OCD you speak of is visible to your friends then just tell them you are not going. What they think is frankly irrelevant if they care about you.

 

[Sonnessa]

The gospel is not founded on making vows to seek God's punishment because we have broken our vows when we wanted to answer our own sin. Let God answer your sin in Christ. How to answer that question is the beginning of faith. Ananias and Sapphire were judged unto death in the visibility of the church in Jerusalem and that because the sinned by lying against the Holy Spirit in the hearing of the church in Jerusalem. I assume that you are not fornicatin in the visibility of the church either before or after you break bread.

There may well be consequences for sin even after confessing and repenting. But repenting must be true and not a contraction of ideas predicated on a mistaken understanding of the shed blood of Christ. In truth the Father will only discipline us when our repentance is true. When we construct repentance then He will simply turn away from hearing our prayers - other than prayers that come from a sincere heart to please Him regardless of our mistaken attitude.

If the OCD you speak of is visible to your friends then just tell them you are not going. What they think is frankly irrelevant if they care about you.

I don't quite feel comfortable saying ''hey the reason I am not going is because I'm scared God is going to crash the plane" not exactly the best route to go. It's a slippery slope because am I just suppose to tell everyone this whenever asked? Like you said you still get punished after sin so there is not point in getting on but I'm not sure disclosing with is the best idea.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I don't quite feel comfortable saying ''hey the reason I am not going is because I'm scared God is going to crash the plane" not exactly the best route to go. It's a slippery slope because am I just suppose to tell everyone this whenever asked? Like you said you still get punished after sin so there is not point in getting on but I'm not sure disclosing with is the best idea.

Who requires you to tell your friends anything? If your OCD is visible to them then just decline to go. I didn't say that God punishes sin after sin is repented of. I meant that God disciplines the sinner after it is repented of. And even then perhaps not at all. Your faith is not a religious parade.

Be rational. If you did tell your friends that you had asked God to kill you by dashing you to the ground in a plane then they would rightly be inclined to think you slightly unbalanced. They may also be as weak minded as you are being and start to become afraid themselves. Why not just pull you head in and find your own place for a trip and walk there?

 

[Andrewn]

Welcome to the CF. Hope you enjoy the fellowship and discussions.

 

[Sonnessa]

Who requires you to tell your friends anything? If your OCD is visible to them then just decline to go. I didn't say that God punishes sin after sin is repented of. I meant that God disciplines the sinner after it is repented of. And even then perhaps not at all. Your faith is not a religious parade.

Be rational. If you did tell your friends that you had asked God to kill you by dashing you to the ground in a plane then they would rightly be inclined to think you slightly unbalanced. They may also be as weak minded as you are being and start to become afraid themselves. Why not just pull you head in and find your own place for a trip and walk there?

Honestly I don't see much of a difference between the word "discipline" and "punish". They carry the same connotation and be used the same way in most sentences. Trying to build a difference between them seems pointless. I'm also curious about your thinking process. You say that God punishes after repetence (er "discipline") after sin which I committed but then claim I'm unbalanced and weak minded for thinking so. Which is it?

 

[rhomphaeam]

Honestly I don't see much of a difference between the word "discipline" and "punish". They carry the same connotation and be used the same way in most sentences. Trying to build a difference between them seems pointless.

Then there would be little benefit to my trying to explain the difference.

I'm also curious about your thinking process. You say that God punishes after repetence (er "discipline") after sin which I committed but then claim I'm unbalanced and weak minded for thinking so. Which is it?

That slightly mocking question is fractured. OCD doesn't seek to fracture anything. So either go back to the fear, anxiety and depression presentation you cited on the 9th June or else wait until the psychiatrist gives you a clinical opinion on your behaviour that forms a reasonable basis to either uphold the opinion through neuropathological means of observation or else by a medicated benefit. OCD demands an absolute outcome and when one cannot be found then the distress becomes truly harmful and self destructive. Similarly, always being able to press into that demand can produce anger, frustration and intolerance.

Let God be God.

 

[Sonnessa]

Then there would be little benefit to my trying to explain the difference.



That slightly mocking question is fractured. OCD doesn't seek to fracture anything. So either go back to the fear, anxiety and depression presentation you cited on the 9th June or else wait until the psychiatrist gives you a clinical opinion on your behaviour that forms a reasonable basis to either uphold the opinion through neuropathological means of observation or else by a medicated benefit. OCD demands an absolute outcome and when one cannot be found then the distress becomes truly harmful and self destructive. Similarly, always being able to press into that demand can produce anger, frustration and intolerance.

Let God be God.

Okay point taken. Let me ask you this. If this were you in this situation would you eventually get on one even after hypothetical treatment?

 

[rhomphaeam]

Okay point taken. Let me ask you this. If this were you in this situation would you eventually get on one even after hypothetical treatment?

If you will show some restraint then perhaps I can show you biblically how to begin to sense the psychological and psychophysiological predications that give rise to the observable or clinical presentations that have formed your difficulties as you have expressed them on this forum.

OCD is a move on from those behavioural traits - however, behavioural psychology, like the neurophysiology that is the pathological claim of OCD, is predicated on the same physiology even when the physiology is deemed normative. In other words, behaviour is grounded in large part by autonomic triggers.

You can begin with Adam and then move on to Cain. Just what they said to God, and taking from what God said to them as a true picture of their condition after the fall. And to help you direct your thoughts I am speaking of fear and anger. Adam hid himself and Cain murdered his brother.

 

[Sonnessa]

If you will show some restraint then perhaps I can show you biblically how to begin to sense the psychological and psychophysiological predications that give rise to the observable or clinical presentations that have formed your difficulties as you have expressed them on this forum.

OCD is a move on from those behavioural traits - however, behavioural psychology, like the neurophysiology that is the pathological claim of OCD, is predicated on the same physiology even when the physiology is deemed normative. In other words, behaviour is grounded in large part by autonomic triggers.

You can begin with Adam and then move on to Cain. Just what they said to God, and taking from what God said to them as a true picture of their condition after the fall. And to help you direct your thoughts I am speaking of fear and anger. Adam hid himself and Cain murdered his brother.

I know that story. Cain killed his brother, when questioned about it from God evaded the question and God banished him to being a wanderer and gave him a mark so people wouldn't kill him. I'm having difficulty connecting this to OCD.

 

[rhomphaeam]

I know that story. Cain killed his brother, when questioned about it from God evaded the question and God banished him to being a wanderer and gave him a mark so people wouldn't kill him. I'm having difficulty connecting this to OCD.

Of course you know the story of Cain. It's legendary. However, read what God said to Adam and how Adam responded in his words. The very same thing with Cain. With Cain you have to begin at the start of the account and not move on to the end of the account before seeing the entire account. It's very important.

 

[Sonnessa]

Of course you know the story of Cain. It's legendary. However, read what God said to Adam and how Adam responded in his words. The very same thing with Cain. With Cain you have to begin at the start of the account and not move on to the end of the account before seeing the entire account. It's very important.

It seems this was God's response

"Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live."

and then a whole dialogue about how Adam and Eve are cursed along mankind.

In the case of Cain he warns that he must gain control of his jealousy and after Cain says he can't bear his punishment God allows him to have a mark so people don't kill him.

 

[rhomphaeam]

It seems this was God's response

"Then the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live."

and then a whole dialogue about how Adam and Eve are cursed along mankind.

In the case of Cain he warns that he must gain control of his jealousy and after Cain says he can't bear his punishment God allows him to have a mark so people don't kill him.

When you have read this comment then read your bible from Genesis.

Lets begin with Adam. We are talking about fear. I am assuming that you know what fear is as a simple psychological definition grounded in neurological pathology? If not then this is its precise definition biblically.

God spoke to Adam after he had hidden himself and asked him why he was hiding. Adam told God precisely why he was hiding. So once you have read that can you answer me this question?

Was Adam naked in that instant that he answered God?

 

[Sonnessa]

When you have read this comment then read your bible from Genesis.

Lets begin with Adam. We are talking about fear. I am assuming that you know what fear is as a simple psychological definition grounded in neurological pathology? If not then this is its precise definition biblically.

God spoke to Adam after he had hidden himself and asked him why he was hiding. Adam told God precisely why he was hiding. So once you have read that can you answer me this question?

Was Adam naked in that instant that he answered God?

I would believe so. They used leafs to cover their private parts and later in the story God gave them clothes

 

[rhomphaeam]

I would believe so. They used leafs to cover their private parts and later in the story God gave them clothes

When Adam told God that he had hid himself because he was naked he had already covered himself in an apron of leaves as an immediate response to the shame he felt at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That claim to being naked when he was in fact no longer naked in a physical meaning, is deeply problematic.

Have you heard of Ivan Pavlov?

The same question of Frank Skinner!

 

[Sonnessa]

When Adam told God that he had hid himself because he was naked he had already covered himself in an apron of leaves as an immediate response to the shame he felt at the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That claim to being naked when he was in fact no longer naked in a physical meaning, is deeply problematic.

Have you heard of Ivan Pavlov?

The same question of Frank Skinner!

So I'm a bit confused how does him being naked or not correlate to OCD? I don't major in psychology and have only taken one class on it so you'll have to forgive me that I don't understand your questions broken up piece by piece. From what I understand from the video human being can receive stimulants by connecting certain things and intertwining them. Basically associating them with each other.

second video don't understand.

 

[rhomphaeam]

So I'm a bit confused how does him being naked or not correlate to OCD? I don't major in psychology and have only taken one class on it so you'll have to forgive me that I don't understand your questions broken up piece by piece. From what I understand from the video human being can receive stimulants by connecting certain things and intertwining them. Basically associating them with each other.

second video don't understand.

By focusing on OCD you may be outside of a real diagnosis because your psychiatrist has yet to formally diagnose you OCD. If he had made a formal diagnosis he would also have given you a raft of directions as to how to moderate your behaviour that would be implicit in that diagnosis. He would also have to have given you a least a promise of a pathological explanation and he would also have raised a possible medication to moderate that pathology.

The first video - Classical Conditioning - speaks into Behavioural Psychology as does the second video Operant Conditioning. The two are not the same - but the latter develops on the former in terms of theoretical Behavioural Psychology or learned behaviour. OCD is very different - because whilst OCD necessitates a pathological model [neurologically] - at its most severe meaning, OCD is an irrecoverable pathology with genetic implications outside of a learned process.

Your original comments on the forum spoke of fear, anxiety and depression. The second two are predicated on a less pathologically (physical) deterministic causality and transport into environmental meanings that speak of learned behaviour. Whereas fear cannot be experienced at all unless it can be felt in the body itself. Fear is literally a stimulated response that passes into the autonomic nervous system on two branches of the central nervous system called the sympathetic and parasympathetic. In the case of depression then the enteric nervous system comes onto play. Somatic effects in the body - best understood in terms of the muscle and skeletal systems - can be pyshcosomatically implicit. All of these branches of the central nervous system are visible in Adam and Cain.

My reason for sharing with you is to address your concerns and to tell you that God knows precisely why we behave as we do and why that fallen nature determines its ongoing process and effects generationally. Some of that becomes genetically deterministic and some of it is learned and has its grounding in autonomic effects of the very neurophysiological man. May I ask you to read Galatians 5:20-21.

What do you make of the fact that this passage speaks about the fruits of the flesh? How do you think that witchcraft and sorcery [depending on your translation] is listed? And why is fear not featured as a fruit of the flesh given that it is prescribed and experienced as a physical reality.

 

[Sonnessa]

By focusing on OCD you may be outside of a real diagnosis because your psychiatrist has yet to formally diagnose you OCD. If he had made a formal diagnosis he would also have given you a raft of directions as to how to moderate your behaviour that would be implicit in that diagnosis. He would also have to have given you a least a promise of a pathological explanation and he would also have raised a possible medication to moderate that pathology.

The first video - Classical Conditioning - speaks into Behavioural Psychology as does the second video Operant Conditioning. The two are not the same - but the later develops on the former in terms of theoretical Behavioural Psychology or learned behaviour. OCD is very different - because whilst OCD necessitates a pathological model [neurologically] - at its most severe meaning, OCD is an irrecoverable pathology with genetic implications outside of a learned process.

Your original comments on the forum spoke of fear, anxiety and depression. The second two are predicated on a less pathologically (physical) deterministic causality and transport into environmental meanings that speak of learned behaviour. Whereas fear cannot be experienced at all unless it can be felt in the body itself. Fear is literally a stimulated response that passes into the autonomic nervous system on two branches of the central nervous system called the sympathetic and parasympathetic. In the case of depression then the enteric nervous system comes onto play. Somatic effects in the body - best understood in terms of the muscle and skeletal systems - can be pyshcosomatically implicit. All of these branches of the central nervous system are visible in Adam and Cain.

My reason for sharing with you is to address your concerns and to tell you that God knows precisely why we behave as we do and why that fallen nature determines its ongoing process and effects generationally. Some of that becomes genetically deterministic and some of it is learned and has its grounding in autonomic effects of the very neurophysiological man. May I ask you to read Galatians 5:20-21.

What do you make of the fact that this passage speaks about the fruits of the flesh? How do you think that witchcraft and sorcery [depending on your translation] is listed? And why is fear not featured as a fruit of the flesh given that it is prescribed and experienced as a physical reality.

So let me ask you a question. Even if my OCD had a great effect on my perception of reality how am I suppose to be sure that's the truth? If this makes any sense. Even if it's just my OCD talking it feels very real. I get your connection as to God knowing why people behave the way that they do. I'm assuming you're also connecting OCD and other mental attributes as something that's the result of the fall? I think witchcraft/magic always been condemned in the Bible and not seen as a good thing. I also saw nothing about fear in the translation. To tell you the truth I kinda have been avoiding therapy because I feel like I'm too much in the deep end and question what can therapy truly do. You mentioned that I seemed weak minded for having my beliefs can you elaborate?

 

[rhomphaeam]

So let me ask you a question. Even if my OCD had a great effect on my perception of reality how am I suppose to be sure that's the truth?

Not sure what your perception of reality is. But one thing your comments have shown is that you do have a real sense of at least one reality. You sense that your sins are contrary to God. The thing with that is that such a sense may be environmental and arise from what others have taught you or life itself has led you to believe. The conviction of sin on the other hand comes with a true release because all such conviction by the Holy Spirit must in the end produce such a merciful act of God else we would be unable to repent. Repentance is not saying sorry. Repentance is understanding that what we have done is so contrary to the Father in heaven that He gave His beloved Son to mitigate our guilt perpetually.

Even if it's just my OCD talking it feels very real.

Again this comment speaks of a reality - and yet alludes to an implication that another reality may exist that is beyond reach. And that sense may be why OCD is being looked into.

I'm assuming you're also connecting OCD and other mental attributes as something that's the result of the fall?

All pathologies are directly affected by the fall, and Adam telling God that he hid himself because he was naked, when he was in fact covered in an apron of leaves, speaks directly to his now weakened mind. It also speaks to the fact that man would never find in himself the means to be delivered. Unless God provides deliverance then there is no deliverance no matter how well informed or noble that effort of man may be.

I think witchcraft/magic always been condemned in the Bible and not seen as a good thing.

Witchcraft and sorcery are always condemned in the bible. But Galatians 5:20 speaks about the chemical factory of the body itself when it speaks about φαρμακεία, transliterated pharmakeia and semantically meaning pharmacy.

The Law of Moses was given to teach us that we could not achieve an acceptable obedience to God through the Law - even when the Law came in by such terrible and wonderful means of the Exodus. The Exodus began by the death of the first born of Egypt and then was delivered in tablets of Stone to Israel on the back of more than 3000 of Israel being dashed to death and drowned in the Jordan. You asked God to dash you to death to uphold a vow - why would He do that when He already rose up on wings of eagles and gave us the Law and by the Law the prophets and by the prophets His Son?

I also saw nothing about fear in the translation.

Fear is not there because fear is the most essential healthy predicative experience that teaches us that we must understand why we have sinned. In its most optimistic meaning fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and wisdom is not a masculine pronoun - in the Hebrew bible wisdom is the only spirit that is given a feminine pronoun. Imagine that!

The occult and all sorcery is predicated on understanding the fallen character of the very chemical factory of the body. Today it's equivalence is empathetic intelligence grounded in psychology.

To tell you the truth I kinda have been avoiding therapy because I feel like I'm too much in the deep end and question what can therapy truly do.

That I understand fully.

You mentioned that I seemed weak minded for having my beliefs can you elaborate?

May I ask what beliefs you see I have spoken of when I spoke of being weak minded. I don't mind answering your question - but it may be better to tell me what you believe I have said that recognises your beliefs when I said you were weak minded.

 

[kepp]

Hello brothers and sisters. I am currently a 22 year old struggling with OCD and God's mercy and wrath. I started making vows around the age of 16 and usually I typically make it around asking for punishment for committing a sin and breaking the vow as an incentive to keep it. Most recently I've asked to be killed in a plane crash if I didn't stop doing sexual sin after vowing not to do it again. I think even after repenting you can still experience punishment for doing the sin. The problem is my friends are really trying to push to go on a trip at the end of August and I don't know what to tell them. I'm afraid. I can't just tell them since we planned this (didn't know we would be flying) and now I feel constricted. I don't want to end like Anais and Sapphira or the corinthians eatings the lords supper wrongly (both killed because of sin) but at the same time I'm being told to trust God's mercy. I'm so confused. Some advice and prayer would be helpful thanks.

Hi, Sonnessa. It sounds like you have a guilty heart like I do...not easy to deal with at times. One of my favorite scriptures to go to when feeling guilty or condemned is in Hebrews 10:

"11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

What this reminds me of is that in God's view, because of the blood of Jesus, I am perfect. I don't need to cling to these things that can never take away sin...over and over. Jesus has done that. You may say in response, "I don't feel perfect." That's fine because you're being made holy. That's going to be a life long process and no one gets it right 100% of the time.

I find that being reminded of how God actually views me provides a great starting point for dealing with my sin...and you DO need to deal with it. Not by making vows day after day that can never take away sin, but by confiding in other like-minded Christians...discipleship. When you feel like you're leaning towards sin, call someone and confess those temptations...pray together. Get the Holy Spirit involved. Avoid situations where that sin will be available. For instance, as a married man, I'm not going to go to a bar or club with "friends" just to look. That's asking for temptation. If your "friends" are influencing you like that then maybe it's time to evaluate what friendship should be to you?

Anyway, I'm rambling. Read Hebrews 10, Romans 7 & 8, Galatians 5...all those scriptures remind me of the freedom I have in Christ and how God REALLY views me.