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Hey Who Believves In Homosexuality because i am christain post your beliefs!!!!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Archived - Ethics & Morality' started by mnmcandiez, Jul 11, 2003.

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  1. kdet

    kdet God lives in us

    +240
    Methodist
    Married
    US-Republican
    LOL, How do you know I do? I can be just as vocal about any sin...it just so happens that this topic is on homosexuality.
     
  2. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    Okay. But Christians in general around the world do not vocally oppose people who have sex before marriage being allowed to gain the financial and social benefits derived from legally marrying the person they love.

    Thus, they are specifically singling out homosexuals. The only reason I can think of is ... hate. Or complete hypocrisy. Everyone is a sinner. Why is anyone allowed to gain the financial and social benefits that derive from legally marrying the person they love?



    I will ask you a question: do you oppose people who have sex before marriage being allowed to gain the financial and social benefits derived from legally marrying the person they love?
     
  3. E-beth

    E-beth Senior Contributor

    +683
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    Since when does marrying someone make your social and financial status better??? If I lived with a guy I would get a better deal on taxes, my credit would be my own, and my social identity would be my own. As it is, I am Mrs So and So, my credit is linked to my husband's, and the State pockets the fees for the marriage license. I can be on my husband's helth insurance plan...for more money than I could carry it for myself. If I weren't married, I could collect all kinds of governmental help, from WIC to subsidized child care. So I don't see what benefit a gay couple would have by being legally married as opposed to not. Could someone who knows please tell me what the homosexual community don't get that they want? I really don't know and would like too.

    Anyway, not all Christians are walking around trying to make life miserable for the homosexual community. I think that homosexuals are people just like I am a person. God created them just as He created me.

    And I will tell a homosexual to knock it off just as soon as I am perfect. ;)
     
  4. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    taken from:

    http://hcqsa.virtualave.net/benefits.html


    The Benefits of Legal Marriage

    The typical married couple in America receives over 160 benefits and rights by virtue of their union. It seems ironic that a heterosexual couple married for one hour, has more rights and benefits than a same-sex couple that has been together for 30 years. The following is only a sample of some of the rights and benefits provided by legal marriage.

    Note: Marriage benefits are granted on a state by state basis, and may differ from one state to the next.

    Common Benefits of Marriage

    Insurance benefits through a spouses employer
    Insurance discounts offered to married couples and related persons living in same household
    Government benefits such as Social Security and Medicare
    Veterans/military benefits offered to spouses (education, medical care, housing loans)
    Income tax deductions, credits and exemptions
    Tax relief for natural disaster losses
    Immigration of foreign partners
    Witness and court testimony rights
    Continuation of lease rights (renewal of lease)
    Community property rights
    Inheritance rights
    Payment of wages for deceased partners and workers compensation benefits
    Right to enter into pre-marital agreement
    Automatic rights of survivorship
    Consent to post-mortem examination
    Right to make burial arrangements
    Bereavement leave for partner, child, or partner's close relative
    Family leave to care for partner or child during illness
    Right to make decisions in medical emergencies ( "next of kin")
    Visitation rights for partner or child in hospital or other public institutions
    Custodial rights for a seriously injured partner
    Right to file a wrongful death suit
    Tuition discounts/use of facilities
    Company benefits/perks offered to spouses
    Commercial discounts/incentives offered only to married couples or families
    Joint child custody, adoption and foster care rights
    Equitable divison of property, child custody, visitation rights and support in the case of divorce
    The right to obtain domestic violence protection orders
     
  5. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    A further examination of the rights a married couple have.

    http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/...045/catID/697DBAFE-20FF-467A-9E9395985EE7E825


    Some of the ways in which a homosexual couple can obtain some of these rights. Notice that not all of the rights can be gained and those that can be require hoops to jump through that are not required of a hetrosexual couple. Many of these hoops would require additional financial and legal advice, which generally costs money.

    http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/...0F07903BA#64C2C325-5DAF-4BC8-B4761409BA0187C3
     
  6. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    http://www.pflag.org/education/marriage.html

    In Vermont, same sex couples can have a civil union which grants them all the benefits of a marriage. But elsewhere, there are many rights that homosexual couples are denied.
     
  7. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    Some of this is repeated above but these are some of the rights denied in Minnesotta (sp?)

    http://www.outfront.org/library/marriage.html


    hospital visitation of a partner or child
    make medical decisions on a partner’s behalf in the event of illness
    take bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child
    obtain joint health, home, and auto insurance policies
    inherit automatically in the absence of a will
    file joint tax returns and obtain due rates and exemptions
    have joint child custody, visitation, adoption, and foster care
    obtain veterans’ discounts on medical care, education, and home loans
    obtain Social Security and Medicare benefits for ones partner
    obtain wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children
    choose a final resting place for a deceased partner
     
  8. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    Now, should the above rights be denied to those who have sex before marriage?

    Or are gays singled out for some other reason besides this sin thing?
     
  9. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
  10. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/reslbssc.html

    The American Psychologists Association supports homosexuals having the same rights hetrosexuals do, in part because of the suffering they see in homosexual couples because of this denial of rights.

    The benefits are economic and social.
     
  11. draper

    draper Perspicacious Poster

    +211
    Agnostic
    CA-Others
    Bingo!
     
  12. David Gould

    David Gould Pearl Harbor sucked. WinAce didn't.

    +487
    Atheist
    AU-Labor
    I would like this question answered by those who oppose same sex marriage so I am reposting it.
     
  13. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist

    Hey man, I'm gonna brake it to you straight. The last thing in your life you need to worry about is the approval of man. So what if people don't like your lifestyle, who gives a freakin hoot!?

    Homosexual acts are an abomination to the lord God. If you don't want to belive that,fine, you'll have to take that up with him on judgement day.
     
  14. Dyrwen

    Dyrwen Godless Reprobate

    790
    +24
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    US-Green
    I'll just reply, no need to get into a beehive when I'll only get stung.

    Homosexuality is perfectly fine. I'm an atheist. It's their choice who they wish to love, but it may or may not be genetic as well. Let one love who they wish, so long as their consenting, I couldn't care less.
     
  15. E-beth

    E-beth Senior Contributor

    +683
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    WOW....Thanks for all that...it certainly is food for thought.

    Christians also don't approve of heterosexuals living together without being married. So should they receive all these "perks" as well?

    just curious about what you thought.
     
  16. spinto

    spinto Regular Member

    451
    +49
    Pagan
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Tigersnare,

    I believe homosexuality is an abonination against Christianity rather than God. It just so happens Christians claim their perception of God to be the ONLY one that is valid for all who believe in a God. So they feel amply justified in speaking for him.

    Christian Truth is Truth for the Christian. However this "truth" is not Fact. Fact is: "Christian Truth" exsist as a philosopy of life and an individual chooses to give it validity or not. And for those who don't validate "Christian Truth", it is not "truth" in their individual life.

    I believe the only judgement is from those who understand the Bible to say homosexuality is an abomination against God. From that, many read those words and JUDGE that Homosexuality is WRONG. So, judgement day has indeed come for the homosexual. But it is not God that Judges--it is his fellow man.
     
  17. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    I see your attemp and I commend you but what you based you entire argument off of was wrong to start with.

    Before Christ were their christians? Not so much...there were however Isrealites. God's chosen people to whom he gave his laws and commandments. It is their in the O.T. you will find that Homosexual acts are an abonmination to the Lord God and that the offense of such an act was for that person to be stoned I belive, in other words God said to kill these people because they are an abomination to him. So I am not speaking for God, I am repeating god.

    Btw, Truth for a Christian is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is truth, and therefore is Fact. If it wasn't for God there would be no philosophy, which is only a way of thinking, following the ways of Christ is most definatly not a way of just thinking for me, it is a way of faith in our precious savior through whom we can approach the almighty God, then learning, then acting.

    You are sadly correct in saying that those who do not validate christianity to be true do not see the word of God as truth.

    Also I do not judge homosexuals, I know quite a few and they are just like me, I stumble, they stumble, but I see the error in my ways and repent of my sin, some of them do also, some of them do not, it's the ones who believe they aren't sinners and don't ask for God forgivness and truly start living for Christ that I worry about.

    One more thing, from my reading in the bible, the sin isn't having the homosexual feelings and desires, it is endulging and commiting the acts that is an adomination(although Jesus said if we think about it with intention it is the same as doing it). I know a few very strong christians who are obviously gay and admit to their struggles but becuase of their strong faith in the lord to deliver them from their desires they are able to walk on the straight and narrow.
     
  18. spinto

    spinto Regular Member

    451
    +49
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    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Tigersnare,

    I think you may be misunderstanding my argument just a little (which is probably my fault because it was not that elaborate)… I state that homosexuality is an abomination specifically to Christianity because you speak as a Christian. But indeed homosexuality is an abomination to other religions or philosophies as well. That I don’t deny… Specifically simplified, I believe some hold homosexuality as wrong (or abomination). However “I” don’t consider the held abomination status of homosexuality as correct or TRUTH for all.

    You speak of the Israelites and the Old Testament in the Bible. My point prevails here too. Homosexuality was not acceptable to the Israelites and so is written in the Old Testament. This is Fact. However, that does reflect the philosophy of the Israelites in the context of homosexuality is correct or natural, physical fact. The only fact is the philosophy and Israelite people existed and lived a certain way.

    By the way, it is true you are repeating…. But you repeat the “word” of a philosophy [which CHRISTIANS believe (or otherwise have a non-fact opinion) to be the word of God]. I interject and say that it may be the word of God but that word is spoken to those who are called to Christianity only; and NOT TO others (like me) who believe and understand God in a different way. Both ways of thinking (mine and yours) are not FACT but simply a philosophical opinion of God. The only Truth is in the eye of the beholder per say.

    We differ because our separate philosophies have different motivations. My doctrine is not out to create a world population with like morals and like beliefs (what I conceive to be a priority for Christianity specifically). My belief system simply rejoices in life and the betterment of myself as I partake of the gift of life.

    I will say that you indeed judge homosexuals because you have already resolved to spiritually “worry” about those who partake in homosexual lives. Why? Because you have JUDGED that it is wrong. I am not free from judgment. Often I try to be… But without judgment there can be no opinion. I judge that Christianity is a fundamental reason why homosexuals in America don’t have the rights of equality I believe every person deserves. My judgment is based on the endless examples I see in my own life (since I am a happily partnered homosexual) and in the lives of others with the same commonality.

    As for those Strong Christians who choose not to live as homosexual (but who you say ARE homosexual regardless), I hope they truly find happiness in their choices… I will say that if they are truly happy living by the Christian Law, then they’ve made a good choice.
     
  19. spinto

    spinto Regular Member

    451
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    Oh yeah.... Just a quick edit in the interest of understanding...

    Second paragraph, third line down.... Should be, "does NOT, reflect the philosiphy of the Israelites.....

    Yeah sorry about that... It is late and I gotta hit the hay... :) huh, if I missed anything else, well geez, guess that's too bad... hahhaha! Night All!
     
  20. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist

    Ok first off, homosexuality is not an abomination to me. Homosexual acts are an abomination to my God. But it is also an abomination to the God of the Jews which is also my God, and also an abomination to the God of the Islam nation, who arguably isn't my God. So it's not just chistians who will point out scripture against the acts of homosexuality it is also Jews, and Muslims. Which you understand already I just wanted to point out that it isn't just christians who have scripture against the acts of homosexuality.

    Ok the word of God is universal, the only difference between you and I is what you choose to belive from the Word. Therefore with out offending you, I'd go as far to say your views are opinions because you have read want you wanted and formed an opinion, I however have took everything I read and accepted it as fact, and my views do not deviate from the bible. I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree here but that's alright, becuase like me you are a child of God and I love you and will pray for you.

    I still stick to the fact that I do not judge, but yes I do worry about sinners who have not found the lord yet. I want everyone to have the great gift of mercy and grace that God so lovingly gives to his children, but to get it we must all agree and admit that Jesus Christ is our Lord and savior. Why would I want anyone to go to hell? Our mission as christians is to go out and plant seeds of salvation to the world, just as Jesus himself said, "I do not come to condem, but to save!". Well that is exactly have christians should go about doing the mission, I am not condeming your lifestyle, I do have to. If you open up your heart and let the lord in, he will tell you and guide you, I won't have to say a word.

    Btw...you might be right about Christians being the reason you don't equal rights as heterosexuals. From what I have read Bush is a Christian and he knows the bible, well if he does, he knows what happend to Sodom and Gomorah and would rather the U.S. not see that fate. If you don't agree with the facts presented in the bible about those two cities, maybe you can agree with the bible backed up by archeology?
     
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