Herod's Temple is Actually the 3rd Temple

[Yekcidmij]

By matter of convenience people refer to Herod's Temple as the "Second Temple", but in actuality, Herod dismantled Zerubbabel's Temple before constructing his own, as we are told in Josephus:

1. AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a most magnificent altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions, as it really was, to bring it to perfection; and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of him; but as he knew the multitude were not ready nor willing to assist him in so vast a design, he thought to prepare them first by making a speech to them, and then set about the work itself; so he called them together, and spake thus to them:........

Our fathers, indeed, when they were returned from Babylon, built this temple to God Almighty, yet does it want sixty cubits of its largeness in altitude; for so much did that first temple which Solomon built exceed this temple; nor let any one condemn our fathers for their negligence or want of piety herein, for it was not their fault that the temple was no higher; for they were Cyrus, and Darius the son of Hystaspes, who determined the measures for its rebuilding; and it hath been by reason of the subjection of those fathers of ours to them and to their posterity, and after them to the Macedonians, that they had not the opportunity to follow the original model of this pious edifice, nor could raise it to its ancient altitude

We see that Zerubbabel's Temple was limited in it's size, and in fact it was smaller than Solomon's and it's size had been restricted by Cyrus and Darius. (cf: Hag 2:9)

Josephus continues:

2. And this was the speech which Herod made to them; but still this speech aftrighted many of the people, as being unexpected by them; and because it seemed incredible, it did not encourage them, but put a damp upon them, for they were afraid that he would pull down the whole edifice, and not be able to bring his intentions to perfection for its rebuilding; and this danger appeared to them to be very great, and the vastness of the undertaking to be such as could hardly be accomplished. But while they were in this disposition, the king encouraged them, and told them he would not pull down their temple till all things were gotten ready for building it up entirely again......

3. So Herod took away the old foundations, and laid others, and erected the temple upon them,

The people are afraid that Herod would be unable to complete this massive project that he wanted to undertake, so he assures them that he won't take down Zerubbabel's Temple until he has everything in place for the newer one. Once Herod gets everything in place, Zerubbabel's Temple is dismantled and a new one is built. So Herod is technically the builder of Temple #3.

 

[TotalDispy]

The term "third temple" is getting pretty ambiguous. If you ask one of the Jewish groups over in Israel they will tell you they are about ready to lay the cornerstone of the "third temple" according to Ezekiel's specifications. The problems are that they don't know exactly where to build it and they are supposed to wait for the Messiah to come. This is why some Jews oppose it.

Then you have dispensationalists like myself who only see 3 temples being sanctioned for building by God. The first, second and Ezekiel temples. No where in Scripture do you see God calling for any other temples to be built, including Herod's if you call it a rebuild instead of a renovation.

You have added another definition to the mix. Regardless of whether one considers Josephus an accurate historian or how one interprets what he said, Jesus made it clear that the Law and Prophets were until John (Luke 16:16; John the Baptist). Past the Cross, any temple which holds sacrifices cannot expect those sacrifices to be acceptable to God if He did not sanction that temple in the first place. And what would the sacrifices be for?

Third in who's eyes? Man's or God's?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

By matter of convenience people refer to Herod's Temple as the "Second Temple", but in actuality, Herod dismantled Zerubbabel's Temple before constructing his own, as we are told in Josephus:

Antiquities 15.11 said:
1. AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass, and to raise it to a most magnificent altitude, as esteeming it to be the most glorious of all his actions, as it really was, to bring it to perfection; and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of him; but as he knew the multitude were not ready nor willing to assist him in so vast a design, he thought to prepare them first by making a speech to them, and then set about the work itself; so he called them together, and spake thus to them:........

Our fathers, indeed, when they were returned from Babylon, built this temple to God Almighty, yet does it want sixty cubits of its largeness in altitude; for so much did that first temple which Solomon built exceed this temple; nor let any one condemn our fathers for their negligence or want of piety herein, for it was not their fault that the temple was no higher; for they were Cyrus, and Darius the son of Hystaspes, who determined the measures for its rebuilding; and it hath been by reason of the subjection of those fathers of ours to them and to their posterity, and after them to the Macedonians, that they had not the opportunity to follow the original model of this pious edifice, nor could raise it to its ancient altitude

We see that Zerubbabel's Temple was limited in it's size, and in fact it was smaller than Solomon's and it's size had been restricted by Cyrus and Darius. (cf: Hag 2:9)

Josephus continues:

2. And this was the speech which Herod made to them; but still this speech aftrighted many of the people, as being unexpected by them; and because it seemed incredible, it did not encourage them, but put a damp upon them, for they were afraid that he would pull down the whole edifice, and not be able to bring his intentions to perfection for its rebuilding; and this danger appeared to them to be very great, and the vastness of the undertaking to be such as could hardly be accomplished. But while they were in this disposition, the king encouraged them, and told them he would not pull down their temple till all things were gotten ready for building it up entirely again......

3. So Herod took away the old foundations, and laid others, and erected the temple upon them,

The people are afraid that Herod would be unable to complete this massive project that he wanted to undertake, so he assures them that he won't take down Zerubbabel's Temple until he has everything in place for the newer one.
Once Herod gets everything in place, Zerubbabel's Temple is dismantled and a new one is built. So Herod is technically the builder of Temple #3.

Interesting info.
So the Jews are actually waiting to build a 4th Temple?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...nial-temple-to-be-built-in-jerusalem.8017556/
The [fourth] Millennial temple to be built in Jerusalem

The Temple of Ezekiel by Lambert Dolphin - This author believes that the third temple will be built by the Jews prior to Christ returning and in the earthquakes associated with His return in glory, it will be destroyed and this fourth temple will be built to Ezekiel’s specifications. This would make sense since the size of this temple described in Ezekiel would definitely include what is now the outer court plus more. Ezekiel 45:1-4 speaks of a holy portion of the land, that will contain the sanctuary and most holy place. This would imply the location being North of the Temple Mount. Ezekiel 48:8

Most Orthodox Jews don’t believe the third [tribulation] temple will be built by Messiah.

A great earthquake is associated with Christ’s arrival when “Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain.” and “a great earthquake such as had never been since men were on the earth, so great was that earthquake. The great city [Jerusalem] was split into three parts...” (If the 3rd temple is there, how can it stand through all this?)

The prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 40-48) describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel proper measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area (See inset in diagram below). Ezekiel’s temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere). Therefore most Bible scholars believe there will one day exist in the Holy Land a Fourth or “Millennial” Temple.

Ezekiel also describes the reapportionment of the land in specific lots during the millennial kingdom. The temple and the temple district are not part of the rebuilt city of Jerusalem according to the details of this reapportionment. Note that the Temple area will be located to the North of rebuilt Jerusalem.

I have an additional point to add about the millennial temple. Ezekiel 40-47describes in extreme detail the exact measurements and descriptions of this temple. Ezekiel was written in the Babylonian captivity, 591 BC - 571 BC. Solomon’s temple was destroyed in 586 BC. More specifically, Ezekiel tells us just before his visions of the temple he describes when it was...

For the complete article: http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/TempleMount.htm


The difference in the dimensions of the Millennial temple as compared with the two previous ones:

There is a vast difference between the Temple described by Ezekiel and that of the other Temples. For example, Temple researcher and archeologist Dr. Randall Price highlights the vast grandeur of Ezekiel's Temple compared to the others. " One of the problems for many who seek to interpret Ezekiel's vision of the Temple literally is the problem of the immense size of the building (compared to the sizes of the First and Second Temples). According to Ezekiel's text, the millennial city of Jerusalem and the Temple will together encompass a 2,500 square-mile area. The portion reserved for the priests and Levites is some 50 miles, while the Temple courts will be one mile square. These dimensions are larger than those of the modern State of Israel." (Randall Price, The Temple and Bible Prophecy, p. 531).

The vast size of the temple has led some to interpret the Temple spiritually since the current physical landscape cannot hold the structures. However, God's work during the Great Tribulation provides ample descriptions of physical changes to the earth and the Temple proper will sit higher than any structure around. That currently is not the case, so the mountains surrounding the temple mount will be split (Zech. 13:4) and the Temple mount will rise (Zech. 14:10).

For the rest of the article: http://scofieldministries.blogspot.com/2009/01/millennial-temple-worship-part-ii-by-dr.html


Quasar92

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[Yekcidmij]

Interesting info.
So the Jews are actually waiting to build a 4th Temple?

Some of them, yes. Jews don't move and believe as a monolithic collective, but some of them are waiting for a new temple, yes.

I bring this piece of history up occasionally because I doubt that many people who tout various eschatologies accurately account for events in history. This is a simple (though probably mostly inconsequential) example where those who claim that the 3rd temple will be/must be built to fulfill some prophecy seem to not recognize that there already was a 3rd temple. Perhaps then it's the 4th temple that will be/must be built, but now there's a question as to what other historical facts aren't being accounted for from people who were claiming some prophetic stuff about a 3rd temple? This one seemed pretty easy and obvious (one doesn't have to search very hard), but it's usually overlooked.