Heresy Trial Proceedings

[Faulty]

Heresy trial proceedings from a time the church actually cared if they were being taught the truth or not.

There is way too much "doctrine doesn't matter" garbage infecting too many of us. If doctrine doesn't matter then we should just be able to be saved by placing our trust in a guy named "Jesus" (hay-soos) who runs the local auto parts store. After all it is a "Jesus", why fight over the details, right?

If you're thinking "hey, it has to be the Jesus of the bible, revealed in scripture, for us to be saved", then you are right, because doctrine matters. It has to be the right Jesus.

But then if you get somewhere else and say "doctrine don't matter over here in this area", congratulations, you are a compromiser, and even an arrogant one at that because you felt free to draw the line at the arbitrary point of your choosing.

Enjoy...

Heresy Trial Transcript - Letter of Marque

 

[Frogster]

paul endured so many beatings for doctrine.

 

[Yahu]

Heresy trial proceedings from a time the church actually cared if they were being taught the truth or not.

There is way too much "doctrine doesn't matter" garbage infecting too many of us. If doctrine doesn't matter then we should just be able to be saved by placing our trust in a guy named "Jesus" (hay-soos) who runs the local auto parts store. After all it is a "Jesus", why fight over the details, right?

If you're thinking "hey, it has to be the Jesus of the bible, revealed in scripture, for us to be saved", then you are right, because doctrine matters. It has to be the right Jesus.

But then if you get somewhere else and say "doctrine don't matter over here in this area", congratulations, you are a compromiser, and even an arrogant one at that because you felt free to draw the line at the arbitrary point of your choosing.

Enjoy...

Heresy Trial Transcript - Letter of Marque

Not sure I agree. Some doctrinal arguments are kind of pointless. This is especially true over things classified as mysteries that are not clearly spelled out. Some may not even have an impact on your walk at all. For example, the 1/3 of the 'stars of heaven' that are pulled down by the Dragon in Revelation. Is this a reference to a pre-adamic rebellion or an event during the tribulation? Well the answer may impact your understanding on those events but will it hinder your salvation or spiritual growth? No of course not.

Some are ready for 'strong meat' while others just need to stick to 'milk', ie the basics. As long as the basics are correct, that is what is really important. Arguing over details of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin is pointless. Now major doctrines that lead people into major error is another story. It should be opposed and exposed for what it is.

 

[MikeBigg]

Who decides what is doctrine and what is just what we believe?

For a cessasionist church is the dying out of the gifts doctrine?

Can doctrine change? And on what grounds?

Our knowledge of the original manuscripts has advanced over the years as has the whole discipline of textual criticism. As we now understand some things more than we did, how can this change doctrine? Should it even?

I read this recentlyl: "The Wesley brothers were considered heretics and persecuted by the clergy of the day. They were attacked in sermons and in print. Wesley and his followers continued to work among the neglected and needy. They were denounced as promulgators of strange doctrines, fomenters of religious disturbances; as blind fanatics, leading people astray, claiming miraculous gifts, and rumours were spread that he was selling gin and that he’d hanged himself."

So, how do we handle that? How should we handle the people who seem to have a revelation from God that seems contrary to what we consider the norm.

Not wanting to get side-tracked onto a current topic, but as an example, the whole thing about super-hyper-grace. What if some of this revelation is true? Are we likely to throw something out with the bath water?

I hold enough non-traditional views of my own - am I a heretic, yet still in love with Jesus? It has always felt like Jesus is leading me into learning about my views.

Anyway, enough rambling questions. I guess I'm not sure I agree.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[Tobias]

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.


I don't think anything good ever came out of the Inquisition.

 

[REPHAIAHPEDAHEL]

Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Yitzchak]

Heresy trial proceedings from a time the church actually cared if they were being taught the truth or not.

There is way too much "doctrine doesn't matter" garbage infecting too many of us. If doctrine doesn't matter then we should just be able to be saved by placing our trust in a guy named "Jesus" (hay-soos) who runs the local auto parts store. After all it is a "Jesus", why fight over the details, right?

If you're thinking "hey, it has to be the Jesus of the bible, revealed in scripture, for us to be saved", then you are right, because doctrine matters. It has to be the right Jesus.

But then if you get somewhere else and say "doctrine don't matter over here in this area", congratulations, you are a compromiser, and even an arrogant one at that because you felt free to draw the line at the arbitrary point of your choosing.

Enjoy...

Heresy Trial Transcript - Letter of Marque

You make a good point. Doctrine matters. I will admit that your post here made me repent of becoming more loose about doctrine then I used to be.

 

[Martinius]

Which doctrines do we follow? Whose ideas are correct? Who decides what is orthodox and what is heresy?

Did Jesus teach doctrines? Are doctrines of divine origin? Or of human origin?

Is following doctrines better than following Jesus?

A heresy trial is really just one person (or group) judging another, based on their own ideas of what is orthodox. How does that compute with the command of Jesus to not judge others (or that we will be judged as we judge others)?

One thing you can learn from studying the history of Christianity is that past heresies have often become future orthodoxy. Beware.

 

[Yitzchak]

Which doctrines do we follow? Whose ideas are correct? Who decides what is orthodox and what is heresy?

Did Jesus teach doctrines? Are doctrines of divine origin? Or of human origin?

Is following doctrines better than following Jesus?

A heresy trial is really just one person (or group) judging another, based on their own ideas of what is orthodox. How does that compute with the command of Jesus to not judge others (or that we will be judged as we judge others)?

One thing you can learn from studying the history of Christianity is that past heresies have often become future orthodoxy. Beware.

Jesus taught within the orthodoxy of the time. He was a Jewish Rabbi. he did not come as some new age guru or some undefined healer. He came under the Jewish doctrine of the day. It is easy to take this for granted, but every time Jesus talked about an issue , he did so within the context of Jewish doctrine. Subjects like sin or angels or heaven , these were all established Jewish doctrines. Jesus spoke to a Jewish audience that understood had an understanding of basic doctrine.

The apostles did not invent Christianity out of the blue. Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. Much of the New Testament quotes the Jewish scriptures and traditions. Now we are here two thousand years later and the doctrine that the apostles established is what we stand upon. That doctrine was established upon the doctrine of the Jewish Messiah.

In direct answer to your question. Yes. Jesus taught doctrines. The sermon on the mount is called the sermon on the mount because it was a sermon.

When the devil came to tempt Jesus , the word of God was used to battle him. This use of Jewish scripture was a doctrinal approach. Jesus literally had a doctrinal debate with the devil. Jesus won , of course.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I think doctrine matters only as long as we keep the Lord before us. It is entirely possible to be so caught up in your doctrine and proving your doctrine correct the you COMPLETELY miss out on your relationship with Jesus. How we call people Bible worshippers, thats what you have become at that point. It is good to have a solid grasp on doctrine but in all honesty how much "doctrine" is important? Does God reject a person because they are pretrib, midtrib, or posttrib? Does He reject us if we believe in instant sanctification over progressive? How about if we keep the Sabbath or not? Not all can be right! So that proves how important doctrine is in the long run. Stay in tune with the Spirit and He will guide into the truth.

 

[Frogster]

often "bible worshippers", is a term used by people, that do not like what it says, or don't like people that know it, and use it.

now i do not mean that directly at anyone here, but the term reminded me of that, because "bible idolatry" type phrases get tossed around ofthen, in various circles.

Paul layed down doctrine, told titus and tim to keep it going, etc.

how can people debate the bible/doctrine, then say those kind of things? As i asked a local guy i know.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

often "bible worshippers", is a term used by people, that do not like what it says, or don't like people that know it, and use it.

now i do not mean that directly at anyone here, but the term reminded me of that, because "bible idolatry" type phrases get tossed around ofthen, in various circles.

Paul layed down doctrine, told titus and tim to keep it going, etc.

how can people debate the bible/doctrine, then say those kind of things? As i asked a local guy i know.

I can agree with your statement but still fully believe that a person can get so caught up in learning doctrine that they forget about having a relationship with God. Like the Pharisees, who just learned and learned doctrine and laws because they were certain that was right, they forgot the real portion of their faith, their hearts before God. or how Paul said people could be ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

 

[Yitzchak]

I think doctrine matters only as long as we keep the Lord before us. It is entirely possible to be so caught up in your doctrine and proving your doctrine correct the you COMPLETELY miss out on your relationship with Jesus. How we call people Bible worshippers, thats what you have become at that point. It is good to have a solid grasp on doctrine but in all honesty how much "doctrine" is important? Does God reject a person because they are pretrib, midtrib, or posttrib? Does He reject us if we believe in instant sanctification over progressive? How about if we keep the Sabbath or not? Not all can be right! So that proves how important doctrine is in the long run. Stay in tune with the Spirit and He will guide into the truth.

I think that this verse applies. What we have is a lot of people teaching doctrine in their own name and authority. When the Holy Spirit backs us up , it makes a difference.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Along with that , the fear of the Lord makes a big difference too. There is also a lot of people talkign about doctrines who seem to lack any real fear of the Lord.

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

 

[Yitzchak]

Here is an example of walking in authority. Consider the context. Paul is preaching and another guy is preaching a different doctrine. Instead of agreeing to disagree , Paul pronounces a curse upon this guy and strikes him blind.That settled the issue of who was right.

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
Act 13:7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
Act 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
Act 13:10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Act 13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
Act 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Here is an example of walking in authority. Consider the context. Paul is preaching and another guy is preaching a different doctrine. Instead of agreeing to disagree , Paul pronounces a curse upon this guy and strikes him blind.That settled the issue of who was right.

I dont see (no pun intended) many around here pronouncing curses on each other or striking each other blind to prove who is right and who is wrong though. Undoubtedly if we did that most of us would be without sight by now. How does the saying go an eye for an eye leaves us all blind?

 

[BluhdoftheLamb]

Jesus taught within the orthodoxy of the time. He was a Jewish Rabbi.

Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi. He was a carpenter's son, and was said to have "never learned letters."

Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah.

Great big heaps of Messianic Prophesy specified things Jesus still hasn't done.

Doctrine isn't so easy. Doing the will of the Father is necessary, to know it.

 

[Yitzchak]

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.


I don't think anything good ever came out of the Inquisition.

We're not living under a Muslim Government forcing Islam upon us.

Your saying this is like saying nothing good ever came out of the cold war.

 

[Frogster]

9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

 

[Yitzchak]

I dont see (no pun intended) many around here pronouncing curses on each other or striking each other blind to prove who is right and who is wrong though. Undoubtedly if we did that most of us would be without sight by now. How does the saying go an eye for an eye leaves us all blind?

My point was when people have apostolic authority like Paul did , then they can silence the critics. When people just offer opinions, then it is just my opinion against someone else's opinion. None of us has our opinion backed by God to the point that it is scripture.

A lot more humility would help. Some are not even qualified to be teachers.

 

[Yitzchak]

Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi. He was a carpenter's son, and was said to have "never learned letters."

A case in point. Welcome to crazy world....Is it even worth the time to try and correct this nonsense ?