Heresy of Perfectionism (aka Sinless Perfectionism)

[Tetra]

There seems to be a common trend I'm observing on the forum, and that is the idea of sinless perfectionism. That somehow the Holy Spirit has removed not only all sin, but even the desire to sin. That "true" Christians become sinless.

A recent thread on CF promoting this heresy:
If you commit sin are you still of God? Yes or no

"Perfectionists" love 1 John 3 it seems:

1 John 3:9, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

1 John 3:6, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."

1 John 5:18, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."

Matt Slick of CARM explained these verses well though:

The Bible is not saying that we don't sin. Those verses in 1 John are talking about abiding in sin. That is not what Christians do. In fact, 1 John earlier in the same epistle states the following.

1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Can a Christian achieve sinless perfection? | carm

You can also check out R.C Sprouls: The Heresy of Perfectionism here:
The Heresy of Perfectionism

Have you also come across this in your interactions on CF?

 

[Dave-W]

There seems to be a common trend I'm observing on the forum, and that is the idea of sinless perfectionism. That somehow the Holy Spirit has removed not only all sin, but even the desire to sin. That "true" Christians become sinless.

That is because people tend to water down or only use a partial definition of what sin is.

IMO even John Wesley used a partial definition of sin when he put out the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, or as he called it "Entire Sanctification."

 

[Tetra]

That is because people tend to water down or only use a partial definition of what sin is.

Hit the nail on the head with that one!

 

[RaymondG]

I actually do feel one can and must be perfect. The issue I see is that some feel they are perfect in the flesh. I dont think this is possible...In the flesh no man can please God....Roman 8:8

But when we learn to worship in spirit and in truth, we shall be perfect.

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

This requires a lot of self examination.....but most are too busy examining their brother. I use to be a doctor... Now Im the patient.....now I can be whole/Perfect.

 

[Dave-W]

But when we learn to worship in spirit and in truth, we shall be perfect.

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Don't over-spiritualize that. He was talking about our walk here on earth; NOT the legal perfection that comes from His death burial and resurrection.

 

[Phil 1:21]

This particular theology is a perfect example of what happens when people cherry pick verses out of the Bible, remove them from their context, and then twist them in such a way as to affirm their preconceived notions. It comes down to the difference between using the Bible to justify your opinion versus using it to discover the truth. If God’s children were truly devoid of sin, Jesus would never have had to take our place on the cross. The notion of “sinless perfection” is not only un-biblical, it’s completely counter-Biblical.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is because people tend to water down or only use a partial definition of what sin is.

IMO even John Wesley used a partial definition of sin when he put out the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, or as he called it "Entire Sanctification."

I have heard this crazy theory around too.

I have heard it called 'willful sin' vs. non-willful sin'. However, God is clear, sin is sin.

But people think they need to obtain perfection so they try to justify their own sin as being non-willful, but sin is sin. And God defines it, not mankind.

 

[Dave-W]

This particular theology is a perfect example of what happens when people cherry pick verses out of the Bible, remove them from their context, and then twist them in such a way as to affirm their preconceived notions. It comes down to the difference between using the Bible to justify your opinion versus using it to discover the truth. If God’s children were truly devoid of sin, Jesus would never have had to take our place on the cross. The notion of “sinless perfection” is not only un-biblical, it’s completely counter-Biblical.

Have you read Wesley's writings on the subject?

 

[Dave-W]

If God’s children were truly devoid of sin, Jesus would never have had to take our place on the cross.

That is a protestant myth stemming from the idea that we are not saved because of sins we commit.

Besides that, your wording betrays you as having a false or partial definition of sin as well.

 

[RaymondG]

Don't over-spiritualize that. He was talking about our walk here on earth; NOT the legal perfection that comes from His death burial and resurrection.

I didnt over-anything that verse....I just listed it. Everyone will see what they are allowed to see in it...just like the multitudes during Jesus' teachings. We arent suppose to see everything the same way.

 

[Phil 1:21]

That is a protestant myth stemming from the idea that we are not saved because of sins we commit.

Besides that, your wording betrays you as having a false or partial definition of sin as well.

It's not a myth, my friend. It's what the Word of God says. And actually, it has nothing to do with the Catholic (not Protestant) theology of salvation through works as opposed to faith and grace.

 

[sdowney717]

Some important sin verses, #6, clearly sets the context which v9 further explains.

The 'he cannot sin' because he is born of God refers to the new creation in Christ spirit created according to righteousness and holiness, the 'new man'.
Born of God people are of a mixture though, spirit (no sin), soul (can sin), body (can sin).
We will all give account God for the sins done in the body, but the spirit will be saved as it is born of God and does not sin.
If your born of God spirit sinned, then God would be a liar, refer to v9.


1 John 3:4
[ Sin and the Child of God ] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:5
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[ToBeLoved]

I actually do feel one can and must be perfect. The issue I see is that some feel they are perfect in the flesh. I dont think this is possible...In the flesh no man can please God....Roman 8:8

But when we learn to worship in spirit and in truth, we shall be perfect.

Matt 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

This requires a lot of self examination.....but most are too busy examining their brother. I use to be a doctor... Now Im the patient.....now I can be whole/Perfect.

Let me know when you are 100% spiritual all the time and walk all the time in the spirit.

I'll wait ............................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some important sin verses, #6, clearly sets the context which v9 further explains.

The 'he cannot sin' because he is born of God refers to the new creation in Christ spirit created according to righteousness and holiness, the 'new man'.
Born of God people are of a mixture though, spirit (no sin), soul (can sin), body (can sin).
We will all give account GOd for the sins done in the body, by the spirit will be saved as it is born of God and does not sin.
If you born of God spirit sinned, then God would be a liar.


1 John 3:4
[ Sin and the Child of God ] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:5
And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

You are taking this way out of context.

The new creation in Christ sins, but they are justified by Christ and they are then given CHRIST's RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is only because we have Christ's righteousness that we are seen as white as snow.

Even Paul said that his body sinned even when his mind followed God. That is why he called himself a wretched man.

 

[RaymondG]

Let me know when you are 100% spiritual all the time and walk all the time in the spirit.

I'll wait ............................................................................................................................................................................................................

You would never hear/read a spiritual person, boost about it in a manner you are waiting for. You will wait forever. RayG can do nothing....but Christ....is already perfect....

wait, I say, on the Lord.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You would never hear/read a spiritual person, boost about it in a manner you are waiting for. You will wait forever. RayG can do nothing....but Christ....is already perfect....

wait, I say, on the Lord.

That's not what you said. You said

RaymondG said: ↑
I actually do feel one can and must be perfect.

 

[RaymondG]

That's not what you said. You said

RaymondG said: ↑
I actually do feel one can and must be perfect.

Saying someone can, or one can be perfect is very different from saying that I am perfect. Maybe I can word my opinions differently since this point got confused...

 

[Dave-W]

The 'he cannot sin' because he is born of God refers to the new creation in Christ spirit created according to righteousness and holiness, the 'new man'.
Born of God people are of a mixture though, spirit (no sin), soul (can sin), body (can sin).
We will all give account God for the sins done in the body, but the spirit will be saved as it is born of God and does not sin.
If your born of God spirit sinned, then God would be a liar, refer to v9.

Sorry but that is WAY to gnostic for my blood.
You are dividing man up much more than he should be.

Spirit, soul and body = one fully integrated man. If the body sins - the soul and spirit are partakers of that sin just as much as the body is. The WHOLE MAN is guilty of the sin.

 

[Dave-W]

Saying someone can, or one can be perfect is very different from saying that I am perfect. Maybe I can word my opinions differently since this point got confused...

It is interesting that Wesley bemoaned the fact that he himself never achieved his Entire Sanctification.

 

[Phil 1:21]

The notion of perfectionism is little more than the spirit of the Pharisee alive and well today.

Luke 18:9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”