HELP WITH MESSIANIC JUDAISM

salt-n-light

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Even just identifying as a child of God will not necessarily communicate everything that you want it to communicate, especially if you have different beliefs than other people who identify as a child of God. Denominational labels are again just useful tools to help quickly communicate information about what we believe.

That's how it suppose to work, but often times it can be a stumbling block as well because even if you're affiliated with a denomination, not everyone agrees with the affiliation they are in. For example, not every Pentecostal believes in tongues, and not every 7th day Adventist treats the Sabbath as a day of rest. Although it's a quick tool, with the 100s of denominations within Christianity, and tryna figure yourself out on which best identifies your stance, I don't see the need of it. I find personally more of the dark side of it, where my assumption on their stance on certain things on the Bible based off of an affiliation, would at times cloud the fact that they are still my brother and sister in Christ who follow the Word.
 
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Shimshon

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"Just a child of God", would be Christian. I was referring to the need to belong to a denomination and the focus on knowing what label to call yourself based off of that.A lot of times I find myself seeing Christians mark other Christians by just what affiliation they are in, when that shouldn't be the focus.
Messianic Jews are fully committed to our Messiah Yeshua while continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant.

Christianity and Messianic Judaism both focus on being committed to Messiah/Christ although we see this walked out in a very different manner. Focusing on Messiah for us includes as stated above continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in (Jewish) tradition' yet applied in the context of the New Covenant. We base this largely off of Romans 11 and the 'irrevocable calling' of Yisrael.

As we embrace the covenantal responsibilities of our Jewish heritage we see the focus of all Torah based on Yeshua our Messiah. This focus does not eliminate our Jewishness, our identity as the nation of Yisrael, nor the promises made by our Messiah in regards to us as a nation. Which will continue to be identified by our Messiah as set apart for his purposes.

Or have you not understood what it means for Jesus to be enthroned on the praises of Yisrael? Psalms 22
 
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salt-n-light

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Messianic Jews are fully committed to our Messiah Yeshua while continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant.

Christianity and Messianic Judaism both focus on being committed to Messiah/Christ although we see this walked out in a very different manner. Focusing on Messiah for us includes as stated above continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in (Jewish) tradition' yet applied in the context of the New Covenant. We base this largely off of Romans 11 and the 'irrevocable calling' of Yisrael.

As we embrace the covenantal responsibilities of our Jewish heritage we see the focus of all Torah based on Yeshua our Messiah. This focus does not eliminate our Jewishness, our identity as the nation of Yisrael, nor the promises made by our Messiah in regards to us as a nation. Which will continue to be identified by our Messiah as set apart for his purposes.

Or have you not understood what it means for Jesus to be enthroned on the praises of Yisrael? Psalms 22

Now why is there a need for you to defend your denomination, without me even addressing it? Where in my messages did you see that there should be no denomination, no Messianic Judaism, or that I said you're not Christians?

In fact, if you saw my earlier messages, I actually encouraged the person that posted that if you had found yourself having richer conversations with messianic Jews, and you find a bible-driven Messianic jew church, go for it. But again, identifying with a denomination is not crucial.

Idk how you addressed anything I've said, but I appreciate the information, I gained greater insight.
 
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Instrument150

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Welcome! :)

In Exodus 12:38, it says that a mixed multitude went up with them, so there were Gentiles who affiliated themselves with Israel, and wherever you find Israel, you will find both Jews and Gentiles worshiping the one true God together. In Ephesians 2:12-19, it says that Gentiles were once separated from Christ, alienated from Israel, strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world, but through faith in Messiah all of that is no longer true in that Gentiles are now no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Romans 9:6-8, it says that Israel is made up of those who have faith in the promise. So it might be more appropriate to refer to yourself as "Messianic Gentile", though I prefer just the term "Messianic" or "Messianic Judaism".

My mom was a Jew, but she became a Christian in her 20's, so I grew up culturally as a Baptist and was one for most of my life. Jewishness is traced through the mother, so I am technically Jewish, but it is hard for me to identify as one because I did not grow up in the culture. In any case, Paul made in clear in 1 Corinthians 7:17-24 that Jews should stay as Jews, Gentiles should stay as Gentiles, and that we should live as we are called. I trust God to sort out whether I am a Jew or a Gentile, but either way I am happy to be the way that God made me.

I highly recommend many of the excellent studies and articles found at this site, especially the ones on Matthew, Romans, Galatians, the Temple, the Festivals, and on Finding Messiah in the Torah:

Romans 1-8, Messianic Jewish audio teachings by Stan Farr

Yeah buddy I'm about as gentile as it gets. A surprisingly great deal of native american which is totally overpowered by Irish and French Whiteness :D

It's ok, I'm not mad to be a gentile. I know my place I guess, but I do like the term Messianic Gentile and I think I will use it. Non-denom just makes me feel like I don't care. I do.
 
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Open Heart

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I feel so drawn to the concept, and I don't know if it's because you guys love Jesus too, or if it's because that's what I am in my heart. Because every time I hear a Messianic Jew speak on anything, my heart and spirit is warm with approval.

Am I a messianic jew? Can I not be because I'm a gentile, but I just appreciate the idea of God's people? Is it a genetic claim or can I be adopted, do I even need to be
Welcome to the forum!!!!!

The first thing you need to know is the the Messianic Movement is not coherant. The only thing we all have in common is our love for Yeshua and Torah. There are some real knock down disagreements out there, and as you schmooze with us, you'll find that we have a diversity of opinions in here.

There are many messianic Gentiles involved in the movement at various levels and for all different reasons. Stick around for a while, and see if you may be one of those.

As far as "becoming adopted" aka becoming a Jew, this is called conversion. It is a whole different kind of conversion, as Christian conversion is only a religious conversion, but Jewish conversion means you are adopted into a People.

No matter what Jewish denomination you go to for conversion, it will require a long period of study (the classes and books are costly) and appearance before a Beit Din aka Jewish court and immersion in a mikvah (also more costs). None of this is necessary -- you are perfectly fine as a Gentile, you know.

If you go to any of the regular Rabbinical denominations for conversion, you will be required to deny Jesus.

The Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC) offers conversions for Christian Gentiles to Judaism (You would remain Messianic, but you would become a Jew). The one drawback about this denomination's conversion is that it is not recognized by Rabbinical Jews. Those who go through it don't care -- after all a Reform conversion isn't recognized by the Orthodox, so this kind of exclusivism is nothing new.

But don't get the idea that you NEED to become a Jew. Most Jews are confused at the very idea that anyone would want to voluntarily convert. It's like, why? Think about it for a moment. "For God so love the WHAT? that he gave his only begotten son..."

And remember the Messianic Judaism is on good terms with the Churches. You are welcome to join us, but we'll love you just as much if you don't.

So you have three choices and all of them are great.
  • Remain a regular Christian in one of the churches, but supportive of Israel and the Messianic movement.
  • Attend ANY Messianic or MJ synagogue as a Messianic Gentile, getting involved to the degree of your own choice.
  • Start attending a UMJC synagogue so that you can begin the process of conversion to becoming a Jew there (I suggest you not rush into this one).
 
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Open Heart

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Oh so are we saying that the term is indeed genetic? Because God chose that certain lineage to make Jesus from and I'm just not in it?

Not that I don't receive salvation, I get that part. I guess I'm at the gates like Hey guys, I'm here too right :D
Not genetic. TRIBAL. As in, the 12 tribes of Israel. This is why it is called the "People" of Israel.

So on one hand, you can have a person who goes to ancestry.com and gets their DNA done and it comes back 12% Ashkenazik. But if they aren't born of a Jewish mother* or aren't a convert, they still aren't a Jew.

On the other hand, Let's say their DNA test comes back 0% Ashkenazik and 0% Middle Eastern. BUT they convert to Judaism. Well, that makes them 100% Jew.

*NOTE--some denominations also allow children of Jewish fathers IF the child is raised as a Jew.
 
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Open Heart

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All gentile means is being a foreigner to the Jewish tradition.
That's not at all what Gentile means. There is Israel and there are the Nations (Goyim/Gentiles) We often use 'Gentile' to refer to any individual belonging to a Gentile Nation. But basically those are the two groups: Israel, aka the People of Israel, and everyone else aka Gentiles.

Gentile is NOT a derogatory word. It was at one time, when all gentile nations were pagan. But when Jews began bringing Torah to the nations, and making God-fearers, the stigma began to be lost. Today there is even the notion of the Righteous Gentile. You can go to Israel and visit Yad Vashem, there is a section called the Garden for the Righteous Among the Nations which recognizes righteous Gentiles who helped Jews during the holocaust.
 
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Instrument150

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Not genetic. TRIBAL. As in, the 12 tribes of Israel. This is why it is called the "People" of Israel.

So on one hand, you can have a person who goes to ancestry.com and gets their DNA done and it comes back 12% Ashkenazik. But if they aren't born of a Jewish mother* or aren't a convert, they still aren't a Jew.

On the other hand, Let's say their DNA test comes back 0% Ashkenazik and 0% Middle Eastern. BUT they convert to Judaism. Well, that makes them 100% Jew.

*NOTE--some denominations also allow children of Jewish fathers IF the child is raised as a Jew.

I didn't realize it was possible to convert to Judaism. Not that I want to.

I really feel like I found a "label" that fits the way I relate to the Bible as a person involved in real life prophecy (not in the telling of course, but in the involvement by proximity type way)

I just really feel when I'm reading about gentiles that Paul is defending, he's talking about me specifically and as a member of a group. Especially if we're One...

but I digress. I guess this became more of a discussion of passion
 
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Open Heart

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My mom was a Jew, but she became a Christian in her 20's, so I grew up culturally as a Baptist and was one for most of my life.
You can't unJew yourself Soyeong. You is one of us forevers. :)
 
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Open Heart

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not every Pentecostal believes in tongues, and not every 7th day Adventist treats the Sabbath as a day of rest
You are mistaken. Those are the defining beliefs of those denominations. You can attend a Pentecostal Church and not believe in tongues, but you wouldn't be Pentecostal. I'd like to know one 7th Day Adventist Church where the official doctrine there is not that the sabbath is a day of rest. Just one. Link me to its website.

When I was a kid, and we attended a Quaker Church, my parents did not become Members because they 1) thought it was okay to baptize and have communion and 2) were not pacifists. We had a very famous Monday Night Bible Study where tons of the hippie kids from Calvery Chapel would come over for it. It was huge. Welll.... behind the scenes, the church teacher who was running the Study had begun baptising new Christians in his backyard pool because they were requesting this. When the Church board found out about this, they gave him a choice to stop, or leave the church. He left, and took half the church with him. But the church remained Quaker, at least for a while.

The problem was that fewer and fewer parishioners believed the Quaker teachings. It is my understanding that today the church is part of a group of so-called Quaker Churches that, although they still use the title of Friends (Quaker), identify as Evangelical. They no longer oppose communion and Baptism. They are not the church they were; they are now just another generic Evangelical Church that anyone can go to.
 
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Open Heart

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Messianic Jews are fully committed to our Messiah Yeshua while continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant.

Christianity and Messianic Judaism both focus on being committed to Messiah/Christ although we see this walked out in a very different manner. Focusing on Messiah for us includes as stated above continuing to embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in (Jewish) tradition' yet applied in the context of the New Covenant. We base this largely off of Romans 11 and the 'irrevocable calling' of Yisrael.

As we embrace the covenantal responsibilities of our Jewish heritage we see the focus of all Torah based on Yeshua our Messiah. This focus does not eliminate our Jewishness, our identity as the nation of Yisrael, nor the promises made by our Messiah in regards to us as a nation. Which will continue to be identified by our Messiah as set apart for his purposes.

Or have you not understood what it means for Jesus to be enthroned on the praises of Yisrael? Psalms 22
It's always refreshing to have you make an appearance and post something so completely on the same wavelength.
 
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Instrument150

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You are mistaken. Those are the defining beliefs of those denominations.

I know what you mean, BUT... defining beliefs or not, not everyone even knows what their defining beliefs are. Some people walking around calling themselves Pentecostal, and not really understanding what it means. Pentecostal just an example of course

I called myself Non-Dom before and I really had no idea why. I just knew I never felt at home at a place that labeled itself with anything made up in the last ... 1900 years or so
 
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Instrument150

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Wow I just had an epiphany.

The Law of Moses ... the things we read and our minds are boggled. Why could this possibly be necessary... I wonder a lot of times, not that I disagree. I just like to try and understand.

Perhaps all of those seemingly random things are like the perfect butterfly affect. God knew the only exact recipe of events to allow for the "Perfect Vessel" at the Appointed Time. That's why He was so strict, and that's why the laws were so serious to people like David who knew of the coming messiah.

At that point in History, I imagine that having a Prophet in your midst was such an amazing thing. "This man is going to give us the exact next step on the path to Christ" For those who believed

chills
 
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Open Heart

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I know my place I guess
I hope you think of "your place" as a wonderful place that needs no improvement. :)

Did you know that when Christian missionaries made first contact with the Lakota, they were stunned to find that they were monotheistic? The Lakota worshiped Wakan Tanka, which translates as roughly, the Great Spirit, who is Creator of all. When they translated the Bible into the Lakota language, they used Wakan Tanka as the word for God.
 
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Instrument150

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I hope you think of "your place" as a wonderful place that needs no improvement. :)

Did you know that when Christian missionaries made first contact with the Lakota, they were stunned to find that they were monotheistic? The Lakota worshiped Wakan Tanka, which translates as roughly, the Great Spirit, who is Creator of all. When they translated the Bible into the Lakota language, they used Wakan Tanka as the word for God.

Oh certainly I understand that, I love everything about it. I am also very happy to hear what you said about Wakan Tanka .... and would love to look into it more. I have some native american roots though they arent obvious in my appearance. I imagine that those who purposeful quieted themselves and sought to hear The Voice probably had some unique ways of worship that MAY or MAY NOT be pleasing to Him
 
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Dave-W

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I didn't realize it was possible to convert to Judaism. Not that I want to.
Indeed. Reform Rabbi Daniel Cohen-Sherbock (sp?) wrote a book on Messianic Judaism a decade ago (or more). He said the only thing that keeps MJ from fully being a legitimate branch of Judaism is the lack of a conversion protocol.
 
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pat34lee

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Indeed. Reform Rabbi Daniel Cohen-Sherbock (sp?) wrote a book on Messianic Judaism a decade ago (or more). He said the only thing that keeps MJ from fully being a legitimate branch of Judaism is the lack of a conversion protocol.

And the fact that no Jew who reveres the oral law will accept
any Judaism that includes a Triune God or Yeshua as Messiah.
The Rabbis who wrote it made sure of that much.
 
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pat34lee

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Oh certainly I understand that, I love everything about it. I am also very happy to hear what you said about Wakan Tanka .... and would love to look into it more. I have some native american roots though they arent obvious in my appearance. I imagine that those who purposeful quieted themselves and sought to hear The Voice probably had some unique ways of worship that MAY or MAY NOT be pleasing to Him

Most times, if we try something we think is unique, it isn't.
And if it isn't what God commanded, then it doesn't please him.
 
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Instrument150

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Most times, if we try something we think is unique, it isn't.
And if it isn't what God commanded, then it doesn't please him.

Yeah no i don't intend on doing anything that wasn't told to me by the Bible or the Holy Spirit
 
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I, too, experienced the "come home" when I entered the MJ synagogue for the first time, For until that moment I didn't know there were people like me who believed the way I was convicted of. It started back when I joined CF and started posting in the "general" area. There were those there who told me that it might be better suited to post on MJ. MJ, I had up to the moment never heard of this group. So I started asking questions. Being a gentile, I wanted to know how do we fit in the grand scheme of things. Here it is years later, and I am still here.

I hope that you find the same satisfaction of coming home that I did. We are a" messy" group mainly because it is more of a movement that it is an organized religion. People come from all walks of life, from all nations, from all faiths, bringing baggage with them but having a desire to be like the "apostles of old" in faith. That is probably one of the reasons why threads get "lively" here. We are learning from each other, and are getting our edges taken off. We will be His crowning jewels when He is finished with us.
 
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