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Help with Jude 1:9

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Carl Emerson, May 5, 2021.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    "Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses..."

    Can anyone throw some light on the significance of this event?
     
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  2. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    Seems like Michael was assigned to bury Moses, but satan being the prince of this world claimed the right to depose of Moses's body.

    Michael is the protector of Israel from the gentile nations and angelic powers.

    Daniel 10:21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

    12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Jimmy Akin gives his take on your question. 5 minutes and 17 seconds.

     
  4. Gregorikos

    Gregorikos Ordinary Mystic

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    Archangel is a word found only here and in 1 Thes. 4:16 in the NT. Michael is known from the book of Daniel (10:13, 21; 12:1) and Rev. 12:7 as the leader of the heavenly host. The apocryphal Assumption of Moses tells how Michael was sent to bury Moses. The devil opposed him, claiming that the body, as a material object, belonged to him. Even here Michael simply responded with the words of Zc. 3:2, and so his behaviour contrasts strongly with that of the false teachers. (New Bible Commentary)
     
  5. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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  6. 1watchman

    1watchman Overseer Supporter

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    I think one might see in Jude that it is about Apostate teachers and upholding the faith given from God (as 2 Peter also shows). We need to learn these falsehoods of Satan about us now. As one Bible scholar and commentator shows: 'It is not so much Jude speaking as the constraining Spirit.' Jude was a brother of Jesus --the Man. Jude is showing that there are (and always will be on earth) 'false teachers" ---Satan will see to that!
    An example is given in Jude 1:9. We will hear many such voices in our day, and we can be glad for such truths in the Word of God shared for our good now. I hope this observation might help some!
     
  7. Ezana

    Ezana Ιησούς Χριστός Νικά

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    Here are a few ancient sources of commentary on the verse...


    MICHAEL CONTENDED WITH THE DEVIL. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: This proves that Moses was taken up into heaven. The one who fought with the devil as our guardian angel is here called Michael. ADUMBRATIONS.

    THE BURIAL OF MOSES. PETER CHRYSOLOGUS: The angels were present at the death of Moses, and God himself took care of his burial. SERMONS 83.

    ANTHONY’S VISION. ANDREAS: Here Jude shows that the Old Testament agrees with the New and that they were both given by the same God. For the devil objected, claiming that the body was his because he is the lord of matter.… But Michael would not accept this and brought on the devil a punishment worthy of his blasphemy, though he abandoned him to the discretion of his own master. For when God brought Moses to the mount of transfiguration, the devil said to Michael that God had broken his promise, because he had sworn not to do such a thing. Michael is said to have taken care of the burial of Moses, and the devil is supposed to have objected to this. God then came to the rescue and wanted to show those who at that time saw only a very little that eventually our souls would be changed and we would all ascend into heaven. But the devil and the evil spirits with him wanted to cut off the way to heaven and tried both to do their evil deeds and at the same time weaken the righteous by this angelic warfare. This is what the blessed Antony saw in his vision. CATENA.

    SEARCHING FOR JUDE’S SOURCES. BEDE: It is not easy to see what part of Scripture Jude got this tale from, though we do find something like it in Zechariah, who says: “Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.” However, it is easy enough to see that in the Zechariah passage, Joshua wanted the people of Israel to be set free from their captivity in Babylon, and Satan resisted this. But when it was that Michael fought with the devil over the body of Moses is unknown. There are, however, some people who say that God’s people were called the “body of Moses,” because Moses was a part of that people, and if this is the case, it may be that in saying this Jude is referring to the whole nation. But whatever the case may be, here is what we have to learn from this incident: if the archangel Michael refrained from cursing the devil and dealt gently with him, how much more should we mere mortals avoid blaspheming, especially as we might offend the majesty of the Creator by an incautious word. ON JUDE.



    …and some more contemporary ones.


    CAMBRIGE BIBLE FOR SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES: It is obvious, from the manner in which St Jude writes, that he assumes that the fact to which he refers was familiar to his readers. No tradition, however, precisely corresponding with this statement is found in any Rabbinic or apocryphal book now extant, not even in the Book of Enoch, from which he has drawn so largely in other instances (Jude 1:6; Jude 1:14). Œcumenius indeed, writing in the tenth century, reports a tradition that Michael was appointed to minister at the burial of Moses, and that the devil urged that his murder of the Egyptian (Exodus 2:12) had deprived him of the right of sepulture, and Origen (de Princ. iii. 2) states that the record of the dispute was found in a lost apocryphal book known as the Assumption of Moses, but in both these instances it is possible that the traditions may have grown out of the words of St Jude instead of being the foundation on which they rested. Rabbinic legends, however, though they do not furnish the precise fact to which St Jude refers, shew that a whole cycle of strange fantastic stories had gathered round the brief mysterious report of the death of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:5-6, and it will be worth while to give some of these as shewing their general character. Thus, in the Targum, or Paraphrase, of Jonathan on Deuteronomy it is stated that the grave of Moses was given over to the special custody of the Archangel Michael. In the Debarim Rabba, the Midrash on Deuteronomy (fol. 263), it is related that Sammael, the prince of the Evil Angels, was impatient for the death of Moses. “And he said, ‘When will the longed-for moment come when Michael shall weep and I shall laugh?’ And at last the time came when Michael said to Sammael, ‘Ah! cursed one! Shall I weep while thou laughest?’ and made answer in the words of Micah, ‘Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the Lord shall be a light unto me’” (Micah 7:8). A longer and wilder legend is given in the same book (fol. 246), which must be somewhat abridged. “Moses prayed that if he might not enter into the Promised Land, he might at least be allowed to live; but God told him that unless he died in this world he could have no life in the world to come, and commanded Gabriel to fetch his soul. Gabriel shrank from the task. Michael was next bidden to go, and he too shrank; and then the command was given to Sammael, who found him with his face shining as the light, and he was afraid and trembled. He told him why he was come, and Moses asked him who had sent him, and he made answer that he was sent by the Creator of the Universe. But Moses still held out, and Sammael returned with his task unfulfilled. And Moses prayed, ‘Lord of the World, give not my soul over to the Angel of Death.” And there came a voice from Heaven, ‘Fear not, Moses, I will provide for thy burial,’ and Moses stood up and sanctified himself as do the Seraphim, and the Most High came down from Heaven and the three chief angels with Him. Michael prepared the bier and Gabriel spread out the winding sheet.… And the Most High kissed him, and through that kiss took his soul to Himself” (Nork, Rabbinische Quellen). It is suggestive that the sin of the angels comes prominently forward in connexion with the legend. The soul of Moses pleads its reluctance to leave the body which was so holy: “Lord of the world! The angels Asa and Asael lusted after the daughters of men, but Moses, from the day Thou appearedst unto him in the bush, led a life of perpetual continence.”

    It is clear from these extracts that there was something like a floating cycle of legendary traditions connected with the death of the great Lawgiver, and it is a natural inference that St Jude’s words refer to one of these then popularly received. It is scarcely within the limits of probability that anything in the nature of a really primitive tradition could have been handed down from generation to generation, through fifteen hundred years, without leaving the slightest trace in a single passage of the Old Testament; nor is it more probable to assume, as some have done, that the writer of the Epistle had received a special revelation disclosing the fact to him. His tone in speaking of the fact is plainly that of one who assumes that his readers are familiar with it. The question whether in thus mentioning it he stamps it with the character of an actual fact in the history of the unseen world, will depend, as has been said above, upon the conclusion we have formed as to the nature of the inspiration under which the writers of the New Testament thought and wrote. Most thoughtful students of Scripture are now agreed that that inspiration did not necessarily convey an infallible power of criticizing the materials of history and distinguishing popular belief from contemporary records; and there is nothing, therefore, irreverent in the thought that St Jude may have referred incidentally to a legend which he saw no reason to question, and which supplied an apposite illustration. In comparing this allusion with the parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:11, the thought suggests itself that the Apostle may have deliberately avoided what appeared to him unauthorized additions to the Sacred Records, and so worded his exhortation as to make it refer to what he found in Zechariah 3:2.

    BENSON COMMENTARY: It does not appear whether St. Jude learned this by any revelation, or from an ancient tradition. It suffices that these things were not only true, but acknowledged to be so by them to whom he wrote. Michael is mentioned Daniel 10:13; Daniel 10:21; Daniel 12:1, as standing up in defence of Daniel’s people. “Because the book of Daniel is the first sacred writing in which proper names are given to particular angels, some have fancied that, during the Babylonish captivity, the Jews invented these names, or learned them from the Chaldeans. But this seems an unfounded conjecture. For the angel who appeared to Zacharias, (Luke 1:19,) called himself Gabriel, which shows that that name was not of Chaldean invention.” The archangel — This word occurs but once more in the sacred writings, namely, 1 Thessalonians 4:16. So that, whether there be one archangel only, or more, it is not possible for us to determine. Michael is called one of the chief princes (Daniel 10:13) and the great prince (Daniel 12:1). And, because it is said (Revelation 12:7) that Michael and his angels fought against the dragon and his angels, Estius conjectures that Michael is the chief or prince of all the angels. But this argument is not conclusive. When contending with the devil, he disputed (at what time we know not) concerning the body of Moses — Beza, Estius, Tillotson, and other good writers, think this passage is illustrated by Deuteronomy 34:6, where it is said the Lord buried Moses in a valley, in the land of Moab, and that no one knew of his sepulchre. They suppose that, had the devil been able to discover to the Jews the place where Moses was interred, they would afterward have paid an idolatrous honour to his remains; and it would have gratified his malice exceedingly, to have made him an occasion of idolatry, after his death, who had been so great an enemy to it in his life. To prevent this, he thinks, Michael buried his body secretly. This proves, by the way, that good angels are sometimes concerned in limiting the power of the devils, which must, no doubt, be a great vexation to those malignant spirits. But Mr. Baxter suggests it as a doubt, whether it were about the dead body of Moses, or Moses exposed on the water, when an infant, that there was this contention. Baxter suggests also another interpretation, in his note on this verse. Because the apostle here seems to allude to Zechariah 3:1, where we read of Joshua the high-priest, (representing the Jewish people,) standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him; and the Lord, namely, by his angel, saying unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem, rebuke thee: and inasmuch as the subject of that contention, between the angel and Satan, was the restoration of the Jewish Church and state, Baxter thinks that by the body of Moses here may be meant the Jewish constitution, civil and religious, which Moses had established. An interpretation which Macknight seems to countenance: “Michael is spoken of as one of the chief angels, who took care of the Israelites as a nation. He may therefore have been the angel of the Lord, before whom Joshua, the high-priest, is said, (Zechariah 3:1) to have stood, Satan being at his right hand to resist him, namely, in his design of restoring the Jewish Church and state, called by Jude, the body of Moses, just as the Christian Church is called by Paul, the body of Christ." And this interpretation, however apparently improbable, receives some countenance from the consideration, that, among the Hebrews, the body of a thing is often used for the thing itself. Thus (Romans 7:24) the body of sin signifies sin itself. So the body of Moses may signify Moses himself, who is sometimes put in the New Testament for his law, as per 2 Corinthians 3:15, When Moses is read, &c.; Acts 15:21, Moses hath in every city them that preach him.


    I hope this proves helpful.
     
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  8. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Great responses thanks...
     
  9. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    EDIT: Looks like others already gave you good responses.

    As was mentioned in the first response to you, there appeared to be a dispute over Moses' body. The usual pattern spelled out in Scripture is that the resurrection of the body happens at the last trumpet, at the coming of Jesus. But Moses was an exception.

    And from Satan's perspective he appears to have disputed this (chronologically this was before Jesus' death for sinners, though by God's plan He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world). But of course he has no power to resist God.

    A couple other things to look at. Moses died without entering the promised land:

    Deuteronomy 34:1 Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is across from Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land of Gilead as far as Dan, 2 all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the Western Sea, 3 the South, and the plain of the Valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land of which I swore to give Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have caused you to see it with your eyes, but you shall not cross over there.” 5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. 7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished. 8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.


    Yet in the Gospels He is present with Elijah discussing Jesus' upcoming sacrifice:


    Luke 9:28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.

    Elijah if you recall did not die but was translated. So you have both here to discuss Jesus' coming death on the cross. They faced opposition from those who should have received their message, and could encourage Jesus who was facing the same.


    About a possible source for the account of the dispute over Moses' body:

    Assumption of Moses - Wikipedia

    Jude also quotes from Enoch in his work.

    The phrasing, "The Lord rebuke you" is seen also in Zechariah in another dispute with Satan over one of the redeemed:

    Zechariah 3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
    3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.

    4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

    5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.”
    So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.
     
  10. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Personally I believe that the authority given to the church is greater than that given to the angels - after all we will judge them...

    So as Jesus directly rebuked Satan so can we...

    It seems that Jude is chiding those who abuse spiritual entities.

    We need to be careful to rebuke with respect.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
  11. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They put Jude near the back of the book near Revelation that also seems to have unintelligible verses.
     
  12. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jude quotes both from the Book of Enoch and The Assumption of Moses.
    Peter also quotes from The book of Enoch. Though not inspired, at times Jewish writings are used to emphasize a point. Just as modern day preachers draw upon the writings of men for their sermons, so did the Apostles and even Jesus Christ of Nazareth Himself use such popular writings. People of that time, I am sure, recognized these books as a literary tool and not as inspired scripture. My take anyway. Be blessed.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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