Help me - I think I'm being legalistic

[HTacianas]

He seems to make some good points (maybe not in everything), you seem to be making the contrary.

Well, the gist of his argument is that we don't have to behave ourselves, and keeping commandments is strictly forbidden. That keeping the commandments was legalism. I was just trying to get some insight on just how that works.

 

[Jonaitis]

Well, the gist of his argument is that we don't have to behave ourselves, and keeping commandments is strictly forbidden. That keeping the commandments was legalism. I was just trying to get some insight on just how that works.

Are you sure that's what he is saying? It appears that he is showing that commandment keeping is not tied to your salvation, but I don't read anywhere in which he suggests commandment obeying is itself legalistic. Then again, his post is really hard to read through, he needs to rewrite it better.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, the gist of his argument is that we don't have to behave ourselves, and keeping commandments is strictly forbidden. That keeping the commandments was legalism. I was just trying to get some insight on just how that works.

At least in the Lutheran tradition, that is divorcing justification by faith alone from the actual context it is revealed in, the gathered community of the Church with its sacramental worldview and a message that we should go forth to serve our neighbor. In theory, we sound at least somewhat antinomian, but it doesn't work out that way in practice. The process of actually participating in church, hearing the Word, receiving the sacraments, doing the ordinary stuff of our lives, shapes us to be the kinds of people God has called us to be.

 

[FireDragon76]

Are you sure that's what he is saying? It appears that he is showing that commandment keeping is not tied to your salvation, but I don't read anywhere in which he suggests commandment obeying is itself legalistic. Then again, his post is really hard to read through, he needs to rewrite it better.

Indeed. The Gospel promise allows us to see the Law in a new light, as a good thing, and we are happy to obey it, albeit imperfectly (that just seems obvious to me, it's not some arcane secret, really?)

 

[Jonaitis]

Indeed. The Gospel promise allows us to see the Law in a new light, as a good thing, and we are happy to obey it, albeit imperfectly (that just seems obvious to me, it's not some arcane secret, really?)

"I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts." - Jer. 31:33

"But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." - Rom. 7:6

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I disagree that pelagianism and especially semi-pelagianism are no longer problems.

For many people, frankly, the catholic and orthodox approaches are inadequate, even harmful, because they fail to appreciate how much existential threats can drive people to despair. Many, many people never darken a church door because they are already condemned in their minds. That's why I think the Reformation is not finished, and really never will be until the appearance of our Lord again. The religion of natural man, the opinio legis, is alive and well. It exists all around us, not just in churches but in society at large. That is why even Christians need to hear the Gospel as Good News.

Rod Rosenblatt, a conservative Lutheran, has actually written a great deal about this phenomenon. People like this, people crushed by the Church or by perceived inadequacies, tend to shy away from religion altogether.

I didn't say it was completely unnecessary only 95% redundant. Because most of that message is "preaching to the choir" figuratively and sometimes even literally speaking. I say this based on personal experience but there was a book about the Charismatic movement in the Lutheran Church that really articulated it well in its introduction.

1. Intro
   "Martin Luther's basic question was "How can I find a gracious God?" In an earlier century, Francis of Assisi asked how the church of Christ, which had fallen into corruption could be restored. In the 18th century, John Wesley quest was for holiness of life. What Kinds of questions are people asking in this century?
   
   Missionary:
   "Luther's Question was not my question......" "Is God real?" was one question I struggled with Another Question that was on my mind was "What difference does it make?" The answer for me became clear when God revealed himself as being personally concerned with me. The central issue of my quest was personal experience. The meaning of my existence was personally wrapped up in the question of God's existence and his concern for me as an individual. You can imagine the kind of problems that arose when I came up against astute theologians who were skeptical of my personal experience. For which reason, I became skeptical of all theological activity, formally speaking. It all seemed totally irrelevant. The basic problem was that their questions were not my questions and my questions were not their questions, and their was no sensitivity on either side for the questions of the other. So all they could offer me was answers to questions that I never asked."
   

 

[FireDragon76]

Examining Calvinism: Augustine, Manichaeism and the Good

I think it's too easy to reduce Augustine at times merely to Calvinist or Lutheran theology, but still, I think alot of this critique comes from assuming a high view of human nature as a given and merely being a kind of sophisticated form of ridicule merely because our anthropology doesn't fit the popular liberal zeitgeist now days.

Yesterday I watched a film called God on Trial, it was about Jews that held a trial in Auschwitz to see if God was liable for breaking the Covenant. ( This trial actually happened in real life, BTW.) Some initially protested, but one rabbinical student pointed out that it was pious to do so, for after all, Israel means "He who strives with God". The most pertinent point was when free will was brought up by the defense for God, and one of the witnesses for the prosecution had a devestating critique of the whole idea, just based on his own personal experiences of having to choose which of his three children lived, and which died. Obviously, he was no longer a believer in free will.

 

[FireDragon76]

I didn't say it was completely unnecessary only 95% redundant. Because most of that message is "preaching to the choir" figuratively and sometimes even literally speaking. I say this based on personal experience but there was a book about the Charismatic movement in the Lutheran Church that really articulated it well in its introduction.

1. Intro
   "Martin Luther's basic question was "How can I find a gracious God?" In an earlier century, Francis of Assisi asked how the church of Christ, which had fallen into corruption could be restored. In the 18th century, John Wesley quest was for holiness of life. What Kinds of questions are people asking in this century?
   
   Missionary:
   "Luther's Question was not my question......" "Is God real?" was one question I struggled with Another Question that was on my mind was "What difference does it make?" The answer for me became clear when God revealed himself as being personally concerned with me. The central issue of my quest was personal experience. The meaning of my existence was personally wrapped up in the question of God's existence and his concern for me as an individual. You can imagine the kind of problems that arose when I came up against astute theologians who were skeptical of my personal experience. For which reason, I became skeptical of all theological activity, formally speaking. It all seemed totally irrelevant. The basic problem was that their questions were not my questions and my questions were not their questions, and their was no sensitivity on either side for the questions of the other. So all they could offer me was answers to questions that I never asked."

Got a link to the book? I am curious.

This is actually something I have discussed with my pastor. How do we make Lutheranism comprehensible to modern people? (and "what difference does it make?" is exactly what I asked, since that's very much part of the postmodern zeitgeist) Fortunately, I am discovering resources that can speak to that, such as this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Justificatio...ost+christian&qid=1555537409&s=gateway&sr=8-6

or this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Luther-Belov...ved+community&qid=1555537458&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Lutherans can preach about the third use of the Law, but our experience has taught us we must be cautious in doing so, so as not to overturn its primary usage. And there are different approaches in the ELCA with different emphases. My own pastor is from a more LCMS-style background, but there are also those who are more pietistic, Methodist-like or Presbyterian-like, who emphasize a more active appropriation of piety. Both are acceptable in our church and don't necessarily overturn our confessional stance.

Pr. Jordan Cooper's work, Christifaction, also deals with aspects of Lutheranism that are more congruent with Orthodoxy's emphases on theosis.

https://www.amazon.com/Christification-Lutheran-Approach-Jordan-Cooper/dp/162564616X

The main thing I think that has helped me with "what difference does it make?" is the Lutheran concept of vocation and realizing even the simple things in life can be holy. It can be a difficult message for people to comprehend, but I think it is the message that people need to hear . I think somebody like Pr. Nadia Bolz Weber is actually very good at revealing this in her books, that you don't have to go up on a mountaintop to find holiness, sometimes it's revealed to you in the little mundane struggles you encounter in life when you become aware of God's grace.

 

[Chris V++]

If you are concerned about commandments, just don't venerate any graven images in the likeness of Molock and you should be just fine.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Got a link to the book? I am curious.

https://www.amazon.com/Welcome-Holy-Spirit-Charismatic-Renewal/dp/0806622733

 

[bekkilyn]

I think you're okay, provided it's only Moloch. Asherah on the other hand...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This is actually something I have discussed with my pastor. How do we make Lutheranism comprehensible to modern people? Fo

Those were some interesting book titles.


On the issue of Post Christian society I have looked at primarily.
https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Common-Ground-Communicate-Christian/dp/0802440967


Although, Robert Weber's Ancient Future Faith also has some of that
Incarnational Theology (Robert Webber)

 

[~Zao~]

Molech is related to abuse and symbolizes the flesh and is in opposition to grace, while Baal’s about adultery symbolic of law, in opposition to obedience, then Mammon is about controlling, will in opposition to God’s Spirit. Lust, pride and greed.

 

[FireDragon76]

Those were some interesting book titles.


On the issue of Post Christian society I have looked at primarily.
https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Common-Ground-Communicate-Christian/dp/0802440967


Although, Robert Weber's Ancient Future Faith also has some of that
Incarnational Theology (Robert Webber)

I'll have to look up those books. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[bekkilyn]

Molech is related to abuse and symbolizes the flesh and is in opposition to grace, while Baal’s about adultery symbolic of law, in opposition to obedience, then Mammon is about controlling, will in opposition to God’s Spirit. Lust, pride and greed.

Or one might ask the question, "How many Baal runs to 99?"

 

[~Zao~]

Or one might ask the question, "How many Baal runs to 99?"

Huh? ahh none?
Hosea 2: 16 On that day, says the Lord, you will call me, “My husband,” and no longer will you call me, “My Baal.” 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be mentioned by name no more.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Last Wednesday or so I got the sudden hankering to sacrifice a few children to Moloch. It was a passing thought that's gone now so I'm sure I'll be okay.

But it got me thinking. If I don't sacrifice a few kids to Moloch every now and then, am I being legalistic? Am I relying on myself for my salvation?

Moloch and Salvation ... so we're talking about eternal torment? you know ... burning children in the fire?

 

[Kenny'sID]

The legalist says in his heart, "God, I performed all the correct actions, therefore you owe me eternal life."

While the well rounded Christian realizes he doesn't deserve eternal life and is thankful to God for it, thankful enough to show it with their obedience. Not to mention we are flat out told we have to do our works, or else. "Faith and works" or "Faith without works is dead". Still haven't figured out how they get around those scriptures?

Those that would rather do no works at all, are constantly calling those that feel they are required to, legalists, when I personally don't know anyone here who relies solely on works, not one single person. IOW, they justify the do nothing theology with half truths or better stated...lies.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It is important to note that the works referred to in the letter of Saint James to the Jewish Christian diaspora were not the Mosaic law, the works were related to the mercy and love of Jesus.

 

[bekkilyn]

It's not about *us* doing works...it's about being trusting enough to allow the Holy Spirit to do *his* works through us. That's our evidence of faith.