Help me do a scientific paper on the Great Flood.

[LloydK]

I'm working with the author of NewGeology.us to write a scientific paper proving that the Great Flood was real. He suggests that the flood occurred about 10,000 years ago, but he's open to other datings, if the evidence shows it. And I think it definitely does. The evidence I've read suggests the flood occurred around 4400 BP. I like a lot of the info in John Baumgardner's paper on Noah's Flood ..., as well as the NewGeology site info. Some of Walter Brown's info at CreationScience.com seems helpful too. I'm also gleaning good info from Creation.com and others. E.g., I found out lately that the world's salt deposits likely were extruded as magma, instead of being evaporated from oceans of seawater.

I'd like to have help listing the main arguments against a recent dating of the flood and finding good evidence against those arguments.

 

[LloydK]

Here are some arguments against the Flood, which I'm looking for counterarguments for.

GM: The Talk.Origins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn

(1)Sedimentation Rate & Orbital Cycles
- The Cretaceous Carlile shale consists of sands and shales. Fourier analysis of the Niobrara laminations reveals that they vary in thickness according to the periodicities of the earth's long-term orbital cycles (Fischer, 1993, p. 263-295).

(2)Multi-Year-Old Organism Fossils (Oncolite Algae Growth)
- There are also oncolites, an algal growth on shells after the animals die which took time to grow (Wardlaw and Reinson, 1971, p. 1762). An excellent example of an oncolite is shown in figure 58 of Dean and Fouch (1983, p. 123). It says: "Cross section of an oncolite developed around a gastropod-shell nucleus from Ore Lake, Michigan. Concentric layering is the result of annual couplets of porous and dense laminae.)

Multi-Year-Old Coccolith Growth
- The Greenhorn limestone is made mostly of coccoliths, small skeletal remains approximately 3-5 micrometers in diameter about 40 ft thick, 16 ledge-forming, burrowed limestone beds separated by thin shales. The coccoliths had to grow in the water, then die and fall to the bottom; then organisms had to burrow into the sediment; then when coccoliths were not as productive, shale was deposited, separating the limestone beds, all requiring still water.

Multi-Year-Old Stromatolites
- The Duperow formation has stromatolites (limestone rocks deposited by daily increments of limestone from algae on a shallow (less than 30 feet) sea bottom (Burke, 1982, p. 554; Altschuld and Kerr, 1983, p. 104).

(3)No Fossil Organisms Like Today's
- The upper Jurassic Continental Morrison formation has footprints (Stokes, 1957, p. 952-954), fossil soil profiles (Mantzios, 1989, p. 1166), mammals, plants, some coal (Brown, 1946, p 238-248) huge dinosaurs and smaller ones. The animals and plants are different from anything alive today.

(4)Dolomite Overheating
- 1300 feet of Bighorn Dolomite can not be Great Flood deposits because each gram of carbonate gives off about 1207 kilocalories per mole (Whittier et al, 1992, p. 576). To deposit these beds in one year requires that the energy emitted by each meter squared would be 278 times that received by the sun.

(5)Delicate Fossils
- There are also abundant fecal pellets and feeding traces (Hattin, 1971, p. 412-431; Savrda and Bottjer, 1993, p. 263-295).

(6)Too Much Bioclastic Limestone
- The lower part of the Devonian formations consist of bioclastic limestone, and the upper part interbedded carbonate with anhydrite.

Too Many Crinoids
- The Mississippian Madison group largely consists of dead crinoid parts. (Clark and Stearn, 1960, pp. 86-88): The upper Mission Canyon formation or the Livingstone formation (of Alberta) is a massive limestone formation composed of sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and shells broken by the waves. The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding are additional evidence of waves and currents at work. The Livingstone limestone may be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken crinoid plates, enough crinoids to cover the entire earth to a depth of 3 inches, but only a small part of a vast Mississippian crinoid bed that almost does cover the world (Morton, 1984, p. 26-27), U.S., Canada, England, Belgium, European Russia, Egypt, Libya, central Asia, and Australia.

(7)Non-Flood Sorting of Sediments & Fossils
- The geologic column is not sorted by ecological zones. The Silurian Interlake, Devonian Prairie, Pennsylvanian Minnelusa and Jurassic Morisson formations are continental deposits. Oceanic deposits sandwich these beds. The ocean came and went many times.

- The Paleozoic corals belong to one of three groups - only one of which is found in Mesozoic rocks; the other two became extinct at the end of the Paleozoic. The four-sided corals are only found in the Paleozoic. Modern corals of the 6-sided or 8-sided kind are not found until the Triassic.

- Permian pollen is found in the salt; modern pollen is not found (Wilgus and Holser, 1984, p. 765,766).

- The Pierre shale has marine reptile bones concentrated in the Sharon Springs member, not sorted as Morris would assume by ecological zonation.

- Third, the geologic column is not divided by hydrodynamic sorting.

- Fossil mammals are not found with the earliest dinosaurs & no primates are found until the Ft. Union formation or that no full dinosaur skeletons are found in the Tertiary section, implies strongly that the column was not the result of a single cataclysm. Worldwide, no whales are found with the large Devonian fish. If the column was an ecological burial pattern, then whales and porpoises should be buried with the fish.

 

[Martinius]

I'm working with the author of NewGeology.us to write a scientific paper proving that the Great Flood was real. He suggests that the flood occurred about 10,000 years ago, but he's open to other datings, if the evidence shows it. And I think it definitely does. The evidence I've read suggests the flood occurred around 4400 BP. I like a lot of the info in John Baumgardner's paper on Noah's Flood ..., as well as the NewGeology site info. Some of Walter Brown's info at CreationScience.com seems helpful too. I'm also gleaning good info from Creation.com and others. E.g., I found out lately that the world's salt deposits likely were extruded as magma, instead of being evaporated from oceans of seawater.

I'd like to have help listing the main arguments against a recent dating of the flood and finding good evidence against those arguments.

I think you may run into a problem. Basically, there is no evidence of a global flood, and a world of evidence against it. But don't let me stop you. Just please be consistent in evaluating the evidence you find, the research and discoveries you review. But I doubt that will happen, since you seem to already "know" the answer your want.

 

[Aman777]

I think you may run into a problem. Basically, there is no evidence of a global flood, and a world of evidence against it. But don't let me stop you. Just please be consistent in evaluating the evidence you find, the research and discoveries you review. But I doubt that will happen, since you seem to already "know" the answer your want.

There is empirical (testable) evidence of the global flood which totally destroyed Adam's world. The problem with your view is that it is based on the thinking of ancient men who lived thousands of years BEFORE Science. They told a story, which was based on their knowledge and religionists have repeated their scientific ignorance for thousands of years now. God's Holy Word AGREES in every way with every discovery of mankind IF you have the proper interpretation.

 

[Aman777]

Here are some arguments against the Flood, which I'm looking for counterarguments for.

GM: The Talk.Origins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn

(1)Sedimentation Rate & Orbital Cycles
- The Cretaceous Carlile shale consists of sands and shales. Fourier analysis of the Niobrara laminations reveals that they vary in thickness according to the periodicities of the earth's long-term orbital cycles (Fischer, 1993, p. 263-295).

(2)Multi-Year-Old Organism Fossils (Oncolite Algae Growth)
- There are also oncolites, an algal growth on shells after the animals die which took time to grow (Wardlaw and Reinson, 1971, p. 1762). An excellent example of an oncolite is shown in figure 58 of Dean and Fouch (1983, p. 123). It says: "Cross section of an oncolite developed around a gastropod-shell nucleus from Ore Lake, Michigan. Concentric layering is the result of annual couplets of porous and dense laminae.)

Multi-Year-Old Coccolith Growth
- The Greenhorn limestone is made mostly of coccoliths, small skeletal remains approximately 3-5 micrometers in diameter about 40 ft thick, 16 ledge-forming, burrowed limestone beds separated by thin shales. The coccoliths had to grow in the water, then die and fall to the bottom; then organisms had to burrow into the sediment; then when coccoliths were not as productive, shale was deposited, separating the limestone beds, all requiring still water.

Multi-Year-Old Stromatolites
- The Duperow formation has stromatolites (limestone rocks deposited by daily increments of limestone from algae on a shallow (less than 30 feet) sea bottom (Burke, 1982, p. 554; Altschuld and Kerr, 1983, p. 104).

(3)No Fossil Organisms Like Today's
- The upper Jurassic Continental Morrison formation has footprints (Stokes, 1957, p. 952-954), fossil soil profiles (Mantzios, 1989, p. 1166), mammals, plants, some coal (Brown, 1946, p 238-248) huge dinosaurs and smaller ones. The animals and plants are different from anything alive today.

(4)Dolomite Overheating
- 1300 feet of Bighorn Dolomite can not be Great Flood deposits because each gram of carbonate gives off about 1207 kilocalories per mole (Whittier et al, 1992, p. 576). To deposit these beds in one year requires that the energy emitted by each meter squared would be 278 times that received by the sun.

(5)Delicate Fossils
- There are also abundant fecal pellets and feeding traces (Hattin, 1971, p. 412-431; Savrda and Bottjer, 1993, p. 263-295).

(6)Too Much Bioclastic Limestone
- The lower part of the Devonian formations consist of bioclastic limestone, and the upper part interbedded carbonate with anhydrite.

Too Many Crinoids
- The Mississippian Madison group largely consists of dead crinoid parts. (Clark and Stearn, 1960, pp. 86-88): The upper Mission Canyon formation or the Livingstone formation (of Alberta) is a massive limestone formation composed of sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and shells broken by the waves. The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding are additional evidence of waves and currents at work. The Livingstone limestone may be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken crinoid plates, enough crinoids to cover the entire earth to a depth of 3 inches, but only a small part of a vast Mississippian crinoid bed that almost does cover the world (Morton, 1984, p. 26-27), U.S., Canada, England, Belgium, European Russia, Egypt, Libya, central Asia, and Australia.

(7)Non-Flood Sorting of Sediments & Fossils
- The geologic column is not sorted by ecological zones. The Silurian Interlake, Devonian Prairie, Pennsylvanian Minnelusa and Jurassic Morisson formations are continental deposits. Oceanic deposits sandwich these beds. The ocean came and went many times.

- The Paleozoic corals belong to one of three groups - only one of which is found in Mesozoic rocks; the other two became extinct at the end of the Paleozoic. The four-sided corals are only found in the Paleozoic. Modern corals of the 6-sided or 8-sided kind are not found until the Triassic.

- Permian pollen is found in the salt; modern pollen is not found (Wilgus and Holser, 1984, p. 765,766).

- The Pierre shale has marine reptile bones concentrated in the Sharon Springs member, not sorted as Morris would assume by ecological zonation.

- Third, the geologic column is not divided by hydrodynamic sorting.

- Fossil mammals are not found with the earliest dinosaurs & no primates are found until the Ft. Union formation or that no full dinosaur skeletons are found in the Tertiary section, implies strongly that the column was not the result of a single cataclysm. Worldwide, no whales are found with the large Devonian fish. If the column was an ecological burial pattern, then whales and porpoises should be buried with the fish.

Sorry, but all of your knowledge is based on FALSE premises. This is clear when one asks, WHERE did the first life (L.U.C.A.) come from? Did it just magically appear? From nothing? Or is there a better explanation?

 

[Aman777]

I'm working with the author of NewGeology.us to write a scientific paper proving that the Great Flood was real. He suggests that the flood occurred about 10,000 years ago, but he's open to other datings, if the evidence shows it. And I think it definitely does. The evidence I've read suggests the flood occurred around 4400 BP. I like a lot of the info in John Baumgardner's paper on Noah's Flood ..., as well as the NewGeology site info. Some of Walter Brown's info at CreationScience.com seems helpful too. I'm also gleaning good info from Creation.com and others. E.g., I found out lately that the world's salt deposits likely were extruded as magma, instead of being evaporated from oceans of seawater.

I'd like to have help listing the main arguments against a recent dating of the flood and finding good evidence against those arguments.

The flood which totally destroyed Adam's world happened 11k years ago in the mountains of Ararat, according to Secular History. Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE The Ark arrived safely in Lake Van, Turkey, on the 150th day AFTER the flood began and Human (descendant of Adam) civilization, on this planet, can be traced to it's arrival. That's God's Truth which agrees in every way with every discovery of mankind.

 

[Martinius]

Okay, Okay, if you say so. But I have read many books and articles which tell a different story, and every natural history or science museum I visit tells me a different story, and every time I travel 100 miles or so from my home, I see telltale evidence in the geology and geography of this land that tells me a different story. And all those different stories seem to suspiciously correlate with one another. But keep searching, I won't try to stop you. It's good to have a hobby.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I have exhaustive literature search that has uncovered a new possibility that the flood was a technological mishap (like WW3 would be today). You can peruse it at http://kenbehrens.com/Ancient Technology.pdf See if there is anything you can use. 4400BP is ruled out by documents. I believe 5300BP

 

[Papias]

I'm working with the author of NewGeology.us to write a scientific paper proving that the Great Flood was real.

I'm sorry, but I don't know where to start. Geology has amassed literally mountains of evidence about Earth's past in the past 300 years. There are literally millions of geologists today, and most of them are Christians. The evidence we have today is much more than enough to settle questions about the past far beyond any doubt that isn't simply delusional. All of that evidence, and practically all geologists (including those who are Christians), reject the idea of a global flood, regardless of date.

Geology started from a position of trying to affirm a global flood, and by 1840, it was clear to everyone (these were all Christian geologists) that no such flood happened. That was the end of Flood geology.

Please check with any geology department/professor at any University. If you like, ask first if they are Christian, and only ask Christian professors. The answer will be the same.

You won't find good, evidence based rebuttals to the Talk origins points, because there aren't any.

Important things to realize (and check these out, don't just take my word for it) are:

• Practically all scientists support accepted geological history (including a 4.6 billion year earth and no flood), and have for decades. It's simply not a controversy.
• Flood deposits are easy to recognize - if there had been a global flood, the evidence would be obvious and incontrovertible - but the evidence shows no flood, ever. To assert that there ever was a global flood is like asserting that the moon doesn't exist.
• Flood proponents don't agree on their basics. You already mentioned this yourself. If they had a clue, and if there was actual evidence, then dating the flood would be easy, and there would be no discussion of different dates.
• Geologists (including thousands of Christians) worldwide overwhelmingly reject the idea of a young earth and a global flood, based on evidence. They have agreed on this for over 150 years, including geologists around the world, including Christian geologists.
• There are literally dozens of very different dating methods. These methods overlap and so many methods can be used for a given rock. The different methods give the same age for the same rock, confirming each other. The younger methods are confirmed by historical documentation. The age of the earth and the geological ages are thus undeniable and confirmed by literally thousands of tests.
• Flood proponents rely almost solely on a handful of deceptive tactics. These are easy to see on the sites you listed, and include moving the goalposts, being evasive/misleading, quote mining (which you’ve no doubt seen – google it), ignoring/hiding evidence (very common), and less often, outright fraud.
• The majority of Christians worldwide are in churches that accept geological reality (no global flood ever). Standard geology is as firmly proven as the existence of the Civil War, and the harder fundamentalists fight against it, the more damage they will do to Christianity, by making people think the Christianity is deception or delusion.
• This is part of a statement approved by practically all geologists worldwide in 2001.
  
  
  Acceptance of deep time is not confined to academic science. If commercial geologists could find more fossil fuel by interpreting the rock record as having resulted from a single flood or otherwise encompassing no more than a few thousand years, they would surely accept this unconventional view, but they do not. In fact, these profit-oriented geologists have joined with academic researchers in refining the standard geologic time scale and bringing to light the details of deep earth history.​
  
  The full statement is here: Geological Society of America (2001) | NCSE
  

Take your time. There is no time limit to decide on geology, and it will take time to test all of the statements above. It will be time much better spent than time wasted on a useless article for a crackpot source.

In Christ -

Papias

P.S.

..... John Baumgardner's paper on Noah's Flood ..., as well as the NewGeology site info. Some of Walter Brown's info at CreationScience.com seems helpful too. I'm also gleaning good info from Creation.com and others. .....

These are all fake sources. Heck, didn't you see that the "Newgeology" site even endorses "ether", and idea rejected a hundred years ago? The rest is just as embarrassing. This crackpot stuff is the best way to repel people as quickly as possible from Christianity into atheism.

 

[Aman777]

I'm sorry, but I don't know where to start. Geology has amassed literally mountains of evidence about Earth's past in the past 300 years. There are literally millions of geologists today, and most of them are Christians. The evidence we have today is much more than enough to settle questions about the past far beyond any doubt that isn't simply delusional. All of that evidence, and practically all geologists (including those who are Christians), reject the idea of a global flood, regardless of date.

The problem is with the ancient interpretations of men, who lived thousands of years before the "increased knowledge" of the last days, finally reveals what God told us in Genesis. God hid His Truth in the discoveries of Science in the last days. This is easy to see when you read Gen 1:21 which details that "every living creature that moveth" was created from WATER.

Since July 2016, Science has finally confirmed the SAME.
Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things - The New York Times
www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/science/last-universal-ancestor.html

The events of the last days before Jesus returns have already begun. Soon, Science should announce that we do indeed, live in a Multiverse as detailed in Genesis 1:8 and 2:4 which shows that God made 3 Heavens instead of just one.

 

[Aman777]

I have exhaustive literature search that has uncovered a new possibility that the flood was a technological mishap (like WW3 would be today). You can peruse it at http://kenbehrens.com/Ancient Technology.pdf See if there is anything you can use. 4400BP is ruled out by documents. I believe 5300BP

The total destruction of Adam's first Heaven happened 11k years ago in Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat exactly as Scripture details. As Adam's firmament sank into the Lake, it released the Ark into our world. http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/map00-fc.html

 

[Armoured]

Deciding on the conclusion of a paper before finding the evidence for it is an... interesting... way to go about it.

 

[Armoured]

Sorry, but all of your knowledge is based on FALSE premises. This is clear when one asks, WHERE did the first life (L.U.C.A.) come from? Did it just magically appear? From nothing? Or is there a better explanation?

"No clear model of abiogenesis yet, therefore the Biblical Flood story is true."

Sure, why not?

 

[Aman777]

Okay, Okay, if you say so. But I have read many books and articles which tell a different story, and every natural history or science museum I visit tells me a different story, and every time I travel 100 miles or so from my home, I see telltale evidence in the geology and geography of this land that tells me a different story. And all those different stories seem to suspiciously correlate with one another. But keep searching, I won't try to stop you. It's good to have a hobby.

The difference between my view and all the others is that my view AGREES in every way with every discovery of mankind, scientifically and historically. Faith plus Facts equals God's One Truth.

 

[Armoured]

There is empirical (testable) evidence of the global flood

Such as?

 

[Aman777]

"No clear model of abiogenesis yet, therefore the Biblical Flood story is true."

Sure, why not?

1. The ancient theology of men who lived thousands of years before Science is wrong.
2. The false belief that all life began on planet Earth is wrong.
3. Abiogenesis, or magical chemical generation, is the made up false view of the "Scoffers of the last days" who do not know that Adam's entire world/heaven was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:6

 

[Armoured]

1. The ancient theology of men who lived thousands of years before Science is wrong.
2. The false belief that all life began on planet Earth is wrong.
3. Abiogenesis, or magical chemical generation, is the made up false view of the "Scoffers of the last days" who do not know that Adam's entire world/heaven was totally destroyed in the flood. ll Peter 3:6

Feel free to show some of that testable, empirical Flood evidence any time

 

[Aman777]

Such as?

The solid firmament or boundary of Adam's world, which protected it from WATER Gen 1:6-7 for 10 Billion years, in under 11k years of volcanic sediment in Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

It's miles wide and the most valuable treasure on planet Earth, since it is empirical evidence of life from BEFORE the Big bang of our Cosmos.

 

[Armoured]

The solid firmament or boundary of Adam's world, which protected it from WATER Gen 1:6-7 for 10 Billion years, in under 11k years of volcanic sediment in Lake Van, Turkey in the mountains of Ararat.

It's miles wide and the most valuable treasure on planet Earth, since it is empirical evidence of life from BEFORE the Big bang of our Cosmos.

And how is that empirical or testable?

 

[Aman777]

And how is that empirical or testable?

Will a picture do? The world's largest land spirals are found in the northern section of Lake Van. Go here and tell us what causes these miles wide land spirals.

It runs about 30 seconds.