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Hell vs lake of fire

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Lifelong_sinner, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner New Member

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    Hello all, i have a question about hell. Revelations can be a difficult book to fully understand for me, but my question stems from what seems to be a difference between hell and the lake of fire. Can a person after they die goto Heaven, yet during the white throne judgement, find their name not in the book of life and still end up in the lake of fire??
     
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  2. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Yes, IMO life is only for those of the Kingdom. None of us can say we are in the book for sure.
     
  3. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would not put too much stock in the need to literally interpret the Book of Revelation. Many feel that the message of good defeating evil in the end is what counts and not necessarily the need to accept everything the book says in a literal manner.
     
  4. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a lot of misunderstanding about hell. It's not the final judgement, but the place where all people who die go to. After we die, there is the judgement. The initial judgement is simple. Are you alive or dead spiritually. If you are in Christ, you are alive so you are in heaven already in spirit. Once you die, the judgement you face is the "bema", which was where prizes were handed out after sports. Unbelievers go to be judged as sinners. Death and hell will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. Those who have eternal life do not fear the lake of fire.

    Many Christians will be grieved at how they have lived their lives on this earth. We get one shot at it. This life sets our placement in God's kingdom. Those who lose little gain little. Those who lose everything gain great reward. Unbelievers will be justly judged by God according to the way they lived also. But there is no place for them in heaven. They would not want to be there anyway.
     
  5. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    The first thing you need to understand before your question can be answered is the state of the dead.

    This is a biblical study on the state of the dead

    A Biblical Understanding of Death | Immortality or Unconsciousness
     
  6. Original Happy Camper

    Original Happy Camper One of GODS Children I am a historicist Supporter

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    There are two resurrections:

    The righteous
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

    The lost
    And I saw thrones, and they sat up on them, and judgment was given unto them...But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6).

    Martin Luther puts it this way:

    We should learn to view our death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when He shall awaken us together with all His dear children to His eternal glory and joy...For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep... Hence we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, glorified life, meet our Lord and savior Jesus Christ in the clouds...Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceeded them in death. A Compend of Luther's Theology, edited by Hugh Thomson Ker, Jr., p. 242.


    JOHN FRITH (1503-33), associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr
    A Disputacyon of Purgatorie ... divided into three Bokes, c. 1530
    An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester


    Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;... and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God.—An Answer to John Fisher.



    Some Protest reformers taught soul sleep
     
  7. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You ask some good questions & it can be confusing unless one understands the WHOLE COUNSEL of the Word of God throughout Scripture.

    In the OT, originally, both the unrighteous & the righteous went to Sheol, the abode of the dead, of those whose souls & spirits, that departed from their physically dead bodies went to, AFTER they physically died. (James 2:26; Psalm 104:29; 146:4; Luke 8:55; Gen 35:18,19, etc.)

    In the NT, the Greek name for Sheol is Hades. They are synonymous & are the TEMPORARY place or abode of departed souls after the person physically dies. Some translations call this place hell but it is the temporary location of the souls of dead people, the 'temporary' or intermediate place of hell.

    It is the place of the FIRST DEATH. (Hebrews 9:27)

    The permanent or eternal place for the unrighteous & wicked is what most would consider hell. Jesus called it the 'hell of fire' or the 'Gehenna of fire' which is synonymous with the 'Lake of fire' which is also synonymous with the 'Second Death' & with the 'Lake of fire & brimstone.'

    There are two resurrections, one of the righteous & one of the unrighteous. (Acts 24:14-16) Blessed are they of the first resurrection, who are the righteous & reign with Christ. The second resurrection is AFTER the millenial reign of Christ, of the unrighteous & the wicked & those rebellious against God the Father & the Messiah, the Lord Jesus.

    This is when the great white throne judgment occurs & this is only for the unrighteous. All those do not have their names found in the 'Book of Life,' the 'Lamb's Book of Life' are cast into the eternal 'Gehenna of fire' (Mt 5:22,29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mk 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6), the 'Lake of fire', that place which is also called the 'Second Death' & the 'Furnace of fire' (Mt 13:42) & the place of 'outer darkness' (Mt 8:12; 25:30), etc. In the OT it is also called the 'Topheth of fire' & the 'abyss' or 'bottomless pit (NT).'

    Jesus is our example. When Jesus physically died on the cross, He committed His human spirit into the hands of the Father (Luke 23:46; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Acts 7:5). His soul went to Sheol/Hades (Psalm 16:10; 49:15; 86:13; Jonah 2:6; Acts 2:27-31; I Cor 15:42ff; John 13:1), into the compartment or section of it called 'Paradise' (Luke 23:43) or Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22).

    Jesus' lifeless body was on the earth & laid in a tomb/grave for the three days before His human spirit & soul RETURNED to His resurrected physical body. After Christ's ascension, Paradise & those believers in it was taken up into the third heaven, in Christ's presence (2 Cor 12:4; Rev 2:7). Those believing saints dying after this point go directly into Christ's presence in heaven (2 Cor 5:7-9; Prov 14:32; Phil 1:22-25). That was the hope of Job (Job 19:25-28).

    Physical death is a separation, of the soul & spirit (immaterial or invisible part of man) from the lifeless physical body. (James 2:26; Psalm 104:29; 146:4; Luke 8:55)

    Ps 104:29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they die & return to their dust.

    Genesis 35:18,19 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. So Rachel died & was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem).

    Spiritual death is a separation of the person from God, which occurs when a person sins against God. (Isaiah 1:15; 57:17; 59:1-3; Matt 8:22; Luke 9:60; 15:24-32; Eph 2:1-5; John 5:25-27; I Tim 5:6; Micah 3:4; Eph 2:12; Lev 15:31; 20:3; I Sam 3:14; Ezek 5:11; Numbers 5:3)

    Luke 9:60 NLT But Jesus told him, “Let the spiritually dead bury their own dead! Your duty is to go & preach about the Kingdom of God.”

    Here are in-depth studies of the temporary & eternal abodes of the dead.

    Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

    Hades: The conscious realm of the dead!

    No. The righteous do not take part in the great white throne judgment. That is after the resurrection of the unrighteous & only they end up in the lake of fire. It is only their names that are not in the book of life. Once a righteous person dies, there life on earth is done; they don't return. Jesus has given them His righteousness & forgiveness of sins as a gift & by grace through faith they have been saved. Only the righteous go to heaven, in the presence of Christ.

    John 5:24,28,29 Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice & come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life & those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

    John 10:24-30 So the Jews gathered around Him & demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” “I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did NOT believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf.

    26But because you are NOT My sheep, you REFUSE to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them & they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.

    We can indeed. Jesus said that concerning the 11 apostles that believed & the additional 70 He also sent out.

    Luke 10:17-20 When the seventy disciples returned, they joyfully reported to him, “Lord, even the demons obey us when we use your name!”

    18“Yes,” he told them, “I saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning! Look, I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy & you can walk among snakes & scorpions & crush them. Nothing will injure you. But don’t rejoice because evil spirits obey you; rejoice because YOUR NAMES ARE REGISTERED IN HEAVEN.”

    Psalm 69:28 May they be erased from the book of life & not listed WITH THE RIGHTEOUS.

    Only the righteous are listed in the Book of Life.

    Isaiah 4:3 Whoever remains in Zion & whoever is left in Jerusalem will be called holy--all in Jerusalem who are recorded among the living--

    Daniel 12:1 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

    Malachi 3:17 "They will be Mine," says the LORD of Hosts, "on the day when I prepare My treasured possession. And I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him.

    Exodus 32:31-34 So Moses returned to the LORD & said, “Oh, what a terrible sin these people have committed. They have made gods of gold for themselves. But now, if you will only forgive their sin—but if not, erase my name from the record you have written!”

    33But the LORD replied to MOSES, “No, I will erase the name of everyone who has sinned against me. Now go, lead the people to the place I told you about. Look! My angel will lead the way before you. And when I come to call the people to account, I will certainly hold them responsible for their sins.”

    Luke 9:28-36 About 8 days later Jesus took Peter, John & James up on a mountain to pray. And as He was praying, the appearance of His face was transformed & His clothes became dazzling white.

    30SUDDENLY, two men, MOSES AND ELIJAH, appeared (made manifest, revealed) & began talking with Jesus. They were glorious to see (in glory). And they were speaking ABOUT His exodus from this world, which was about to be fulfilled in Jerusalem.

    32Peter and the others had fallen asleep. When they woke up, they saw JESUS' GLORY & the two men standing with Him. As Moses & Elijah were starting to leave, Peter, not even knowing what he was saying, blurted out, “Master, it’s wonderful for us to be here! Let’s make three shelters as memorials—one for you, one for Moses & one for Elijah.” But even as he was saying this, a cloud overshadowed them & terror gripped them as the cloud covered them.

    35Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to Him.” When the voice finished, Jesus was there alone. They didn’t tell anyone at that time what they had seen.

    Philippians 4:3 Yes & I ask you, my true yokefellow, to help these women who have labored with me for the gospel, along with Clement AND the rest of my fellow workers, WHOSE NAMES ARE in the BOOK OF LIFE.

    Hebrews 12:23 ...In joyful assembly, to the congregation of the firstborn, REGISTERED (enrolled) in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect...

    Rev 3:5 Like them, the one who is victorious will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

    Rev 13:8 (17:8) And all who dwell on the earth will WORSHIP THE BEAST--all whose names have NOT been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

    Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who practices an abomination or a lie, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

    Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and NONE OF THEM IS LOST--EXCEPT the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

    Paul had already been to paradise. He already KNEW where He was going. How did Paul KNOW all his fellow workers & Clement had their names written in the Book of Life, even before they died?

    How did Jesus know the 70 disciples He sent out, in addition to the 12 He had sent out previous, ALL had their names written in the Book of Life & this was before they had even physically died? How did Jesus know the other 12 apostles would never be lost (except Judas Iscariot), even before they physically died?

    We as disciples & followers of Christ, who by grace through faith have been saved, can be confident that are names are written in the Book of Life, even as Jesus is confident & Paul is confident & even Moses couldn't be blotted out of the Book of Life & on the mount of transfiguration--there Moses appeared--IN GLORY already, with Elijah. That is our hope as well, like a sure anchor of the soul (Heb 6:18-20), the HOPE OF GLORY. (Acts 23:6; Colossians 1:27; Rom 5:5; Psalm 62:5; I Pet 1:3)
     
  8. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  9. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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  10. Kris Jordan

    Kris Jordan Acts 4:12

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    Hi Lifelong_sinner,

    No, it's not possible from what the Bible teaches. Our death on earth seals our fate of where we will go when we die, based upon whether we have accepted God's free gift of grace through faith in His Son, Jesus or not.

    • Those who have trusted Jesus for their forgiveness and salvation enter heaven when they die. (They will not participate in the Great White Throne Judgment because that is reserved for unbelievers who have rejected Jesus and will be judged for their sin.)

    • Those who have rejected God's free gift of salvation in Jesus will enter hell when they die to await final judgment at the Great White Throne Judgement. Once that has occurred, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

    A person in heaven or hell (or the Lake of Fire) cannot transition to a different location.
     
  11. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I believe heaven and eternal life are the same, and when one gets the life, it is not taken away.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23
     
  12. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Especially if the Kingdom causes a problem for their aspect of the religion.
     
  13. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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