Hell is not separation from God

[FineLinen]

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Wake up old fellow! There is one passage of Scripture that speaks of "eternal damnation". Do you know what blaspheming the Spirit of the Lord means?

 

[Der Alte]

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Wake up old fellow! There is one passage of Scripture that speaks of "eternal damnation". Do you know what blaspheming the Spirit of the Lord means?

How can there be one verse which says ""eternal damnation" when according to UR-ites the only word for "eternal" i.e. "aidios" only occurs one time in the NT in Jude 1:6 and it refers to darkness? Or does "aionios" mean "eternal" when UR-ites want it to?

 

[FineLinen]

Wake up old fellow! There is one passage of Scripture that speaks of "eternal damnation". Do you know what blaspheming the Spirit of the Lord means?

Aidios & aionios

Wake up old fellow! There is one passage of Scripture that speaks of "eternal damnation". Do you know what blaspheming the Spirit of the Lord means?

Aionios & Aidios =

The Greek Words Aiõn and Aiõnios - Concordant Publishing Concern

The Greek Words Aiõn and Aiõnios - Concordant Publishing Concern

 

[Der Alte]

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Aion and Aionios
The Greek Words Aiõn and Aiõnios - Concordant Publishing Concern

Biased meaningless rubbish. "This scholar says "this." "That scholar says "that." "Another scholar says something else." "But I say what I say."

Link to BDAG lexicon definition of Aionios
Could anyone ultimately reject God?​

Here is a 5 verse portion of my 26 verse study of "aionios" in the Bible.
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which are not eternal e.g. “world.” How do I explain that? Simple. The few times "aionios" is not translated "eternal" it is being used figuratively.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
= = =
Paul used the word “aionios” eighteen [18] times. It is correctly translated “eternal/everlasting” 16 times and world only 2 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines/describes “aionios” as eternal.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God, Himself, as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.

 

[hedrick]

The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.

There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment.

God's punishment is always for man's cure.

I see no sign of this in TDNT, which is the most detailed of the Greek lexicons:

"“Chastisement,” “punishment,” found from the time of Hippocr. and Plato, common in Diod. S. (I, 77, 9; IV, 44, 3); Plut. (Ser. Num. Pun., 9 and 11 [II, 553 f., 555d]); Ael (Var. Hist., VII, 15); Philo (Leg. Gaj., 7; Vit. Mos., I, 96 etc.). In the LXX cf. esp. Ez. and Wis.,1 also of divine punishment in 2 Macc. 4:38: κυρίου τὴν ἀξίαν αὐτῷ κόλασιν ἀποδόντος, “the Lord has repaid him (Andronicus) with the merited punishment,” v. also 4 Macc. 8:9: δειναὶ κολάσεις, “severe punishments which precede execution.” δειναὶ κολάσεις is used in Mart. Pol., 2, 4 of the punishments and torments which martyrs had to endure, οἱ εἰς τὰ θηρία κριθέντες ὑπέμειναν δεινὰς κολάσεις. Joseph. makes frequent use of the term, e.g., of the punishment of Cain, Ant., 1, 60."

There's a sense in which God uses all suffering to benefit his followers, so I suppose you could regard all of those as in some sense redemptive, but it doesn't seem to be the implications of the word.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Really?
What can separate us from the love of God?

Romans 8:38-39 NIV
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You quote a passage addressed to Christians and falsely ascribe it to non Christians, who will be cast into second desth?
This is not sound.

 

[Der Alte]

I see no sign of this in TDNT, which is the most detailed of the Greek lexicons:
"“Chastisement,” “punishment,” found from the time of Hippocr. and Plato, common in Diod. S. (I, 77, 9; IV, 44, 3); Plut. (Ser. Num. Pun., 9 and 11 [II, 553 f., 555d]); Ael (Var. Hist., VII, 15); Philo (Leg. Gaj., 7; Vit. Mos., I, 96 etc.). In the LXX cf. esp. Ez. and Wis.,1 also of divine punishment in 2 Macc. 4:38: κυρίου τὴν ἀξίαν αὐτῷ κόλασιν ἀποδόντος, “the Lord has repaid him (Andronicus) with the merited punishment,” v. also 4 Macc. 8:9: δειναὶ κολάσεις, “severe punishments which precede execution.” δειναὶ κολάσεις is used in Mart. Pol., 2, 4 of the punishments and torments which martyrs had to endure, οἱ εἰς τὰ θηρία κριθέντες ὑπέμειναν δεινὰς κολάσεις. Joseph. makes frequent use of the term, e.g., of the punishment of Cain, Ant., 1, 60."

There's a sense in which God uses all suffering to benefit his followers, so I suppose you could regard all of those as in some sense redemptive, but it doesn't seem to be the implications of the word.

I posted the definition of "Kolasis" in post #67, this thread.
Link: Hell is not separation from God
It seems some folks aren't interested in peer reviewed lexicons but prefer to get definitions which support their assumptions/presuppositions from anonymous "experts" online.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

What is it that we are saved from? And why?

Saint Steven said: ↑
But doesn't that boil down to Jesus dying to save us from God?
What's wrong with this picture?

Your post is way off.
This is not biblical or rational.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The word draw in koine, (helko), is one of the strongest words in the Scripture . In all six passages using it, that which is drawn comes.

"I will draw ALL MANKIND unto Me."

Nope

 

[FineLinen]

You quote a passage addressed to Christians and falsely ascribe it to non Christians, who will be cast into second desth?
This is not sound.

Nothing can separate any of us from the love of God. You will note "us" and "them" in this wonderful declaration!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Nothing can separate any of us from the love of God. You will note "us" and "them" in this wonderful declaration!

Wrong
This is addressed to the foreknown elect, no one else. Whom,them.

 

[FineLinen]

I see no sign of this in TDNT, which is the most detailed of the Greek lexicons:

"“Chastisement,” “punishment,” found from the time of Hippocr. and Plato, common in Diod. S. (I, 77, 9; IV, 44, 3); Plut. (Ser. Num. Pun., 9 and 11 [II, 553 f., 555d]); Ael (Var. Hist., VII, 15); Philo (Leg. Gaj., 7; Vit. Mos., I, 96 etc.). In the LXX cf. esp. Ez. and Wis.,1 also of divine punishment in 2 Macc. 4:38: κυρίου τὴν ἀξίαν αὐτῷ κόλασιν ἀποδόντος, “the Lord has repaid him (Andronicus) with the merited punishment,” v. also 4 Macc. 8:9: δειναὶ κολάσεις, “severe punishments which precede execution.” δειναὶ κολάσεις is used in Mart. Pol., 2, 4 of the punishments and torments which martyrs had to endure, οἱ εἰς τὰ θηρία κριθέντες ὑπέμειναν δεινὰς κολάσεις. Joseph. makes frequent use of the term, e.g., of the punishment of Cain, Ant., 1, 60."

There's a sense in which God uses all suffering to benefit his followers, so I suppose you could regard all of those as in some sense redemptive, but it doesn't seem to be the implications of the word.

Suffering is not an end in itself, nor is chastisement. All suffering is a royal road leading to enhancement. Our Father punishes with one objective: change & transformation in the end.

 

[Der Alte]

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Nothing can separate any of us from the love of God. You will note "us" and "them" in this wonderful declaration!

The typical UR misrepresentation of scripture! I am not aware of even one verse of scripture which states anything like, "Nothing can separate any of us from the love of God." where "us" includes lost, sinful mankind.

Romans 8:28
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:31
(31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Romans 8:35
(35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:39
(39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[FineLinen]

Wrong
This is addressed to the foreknown elect, no one else. Whom,them.

The elect who are His especially/ malista are most certainly in the forefront of the inescapable love of God. However, the whole groaning creation are deeply involved.

"The earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, because creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

 

[Der Alte]

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Suffering is not an end in itself, nor is chastisement. All suffering is a royal road leading to enhancement. Our Father punishes with one objective: change & transformation in the end.

Only found in the Book of FineLinen 1:1 certainly nowhere in the Bible.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

The elect who are His especially/ malista are most certainly in the forefront of the inescapable love of God. However, the whole groaning creation are deeply involved.

"The earnest expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, because creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Creation will have the curse removed.
Agreed.
The love of God is only found in Christ, according to Rom5,rom8

 

[FineLinen]

Creation will have the curse removed.
Agreed.
The love of God is only found in Christ, according to Rom5,rom8

The entire curse shall be removed, it is not a possibility, but the outcome of Yah bringing to consummation His glorious plan. His love expressed in Christ Jesus is totally linked to Fathers new day.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases

 

[Der Alte]

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The entire curse shall be removed, it is not a possibility, but the outcome of Yah bringing to consummation His glorious plan. His love expressed in Christ Jesus is totally linked to Fathers new day.
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases

I am reminded of a certain cartoon character waiting in the pumpkin patch, for the "Great Pumpkin" to appear, repeating over and over. "I believe. I believe." But alas the "Great Pumpkin" never appeared.
I have a bad habit I have tried to correct but have not had much luck. I go to the back of the book and see how it ends.
Here is the back of the book, the Bible.

Revelation 22:10-11
(10) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Vs. 11 only 10 more vss. to the end. No more salvation. Only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:..."

 

[hedrick]

One of the cringiest things I hear a “Christian” say today is that Hell is “Separation from God” People just mindlessly repeat this completely unbiblical lie. Revelation 14:10 “he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:” There is no separation from God in Hell, Hell is God pouring out his wrath for all eternity, it isn’t some place of “separation from God” No you’re on fire!

I agree, at least in part. I've been reading Dale Allison's book "Night Comes." He looks at the recent history of hell. Starting in the 17th Century, Christians began to find the concept of God torturing people forever morally repugnant and inconsistent with any Christian concept of God. Progressively since that time, hell has been sidelined, both by having the concept weakened and by people simply not talking about it.

Ideas like separation from God, or being locked from inside are part of this. But descriptions of judgement in the Gospels show that it's from God. It is God holding people accountable.

Personally I agree that eternal torture is inconceivable. I think the imagery describing judgement (which is really quite varied - ranging from missing a banquet to eternal fire) is a way of talking about a judgement that ends either in destruction of the wicked or their eventual restoration (maybe both, for different people). But whatever it is, it's God's judgement, not human choice.