HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

BNR32FAN said:

Why even quote scriptures if you can’t trust them to be true? What basis for belief do we even have without the scriptures? Might as well just throw out the Bible all together and believe what we think is best.

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This is so typical. You guys go crazy if anyone challenges your status quo thinking.
I obviously haven't thrown the Bible out. I use it every day.

BNR32FAN said:

Amen the apostles were definitely damnationists. No argument there, I’m so glad we can agree on something. So you know something they didn’t?

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No argument there? Not true.
No, but I know quite a bit that you don't.

The Apostles and the Early Church Fathers of the Eastern/Greek church were what we now call Universalists.
The Western/Latin church gave us our Damnationist biased Bible which painted the Apostles as Damnationists.

Check this out.

"Taking a rapid survey of facts, I think we may thus arrange early eschatological teaching. There were at first, probably, three distinct currents. Some held the final annihilation of the wicked; some, especially in North Africa, held their endless punishment; some, perhaps even a majority, taught Universalism. By the days of GREGORY of Nyssa the latter view, aided doubtless by the unrivaled learning, genius and piety of ORIGEN had prevailed, and had succeeded in leavening, not the East alone, but much of the West (pp. 148-50). While the doctrine of annihilation has practically disappeared, Universalism has established itself, has become the prevailing opinion, even in quarters antagonistic to the school of Alexandria.

The waning fortunes of the dogma of endless penalty soon revived, however, and in their turn gained the ascendency. The Church of North Africa, in the person of AUGUSTINE, enters the field. The Greek tongue soon becomes unknown in the West and the Greek Fathers forgotten. A Latin Christianity, redolent of the soil, develops itself, assuming, in accordance with the Roman bent, a rigid forensic type. On the throne of Him whose name is Love, is now seated a stern Judge (a sort of magnified Roman Governor). The sense of sin practically dwarfs all else. The Father is lost in the Magistrate.

In the East the decay of the earlier belief was, if less rapid, nearly as complete. Strife within and without the Church, increasing ignorance and corruptions, bitter controversy (and other factors, p. 159) combined to form a soil in which the larger hope of earlier days at length dwindled and almost expired. Indeed, who can wonder that this was so, if he will but reflect how cruel was the age, how narrow is the natural heart of man, how slowly, even now, it responds to that which is most divine. The true wonder (to me, at least) is this, viz., the appearance in such an age as that of the later Roman empire of the very idea of Universalism - a phenomenon which can, I think, be alone accounted for by the fact that the early Fathers found it, as they tell us, in the New Testament, p. 84."

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter five

Daniel Marsh said:

Daniel 12:1-2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
12 “Daniel, at that time the great prince Michael will stand up. Michael is in charge of your people. There will be a time of much trouble, the worst time since nations have been on earth. But Daniel, at that time every one of your people whose name is found written in the book of life will be saved. 2 There are many who are dead and buried.[a] Some of them will wake up and live forever, but others will wake up to shame and disgrace forever.

Matthew 25:46 Good News Translation (GNT)
46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.”

1 Corinthians 15:42 Good News Translation (GNT)
42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.

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Matthew 25:46

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Eternal punishment (kolasin aiwnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazw, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mwria (vengeance) and kolasi. But the same adjective aiwnio is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwnio (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwne twn aiwnwn).Matthew 25:46 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. (1 Corinthians 15:42)

"
But while the just shall enjoy an endless felicity in the entirety of their restored members, the wicked "shall seek death, and shall not find it, shall desire to die, and death shall fly from them" (Revelation 9:6).

These three characteristics, identity, entirety, and immortality, will be common to the risen bodies of the just and the wicked. But the bodies of the saints shall be distinguished by four transcendent endowments, often called qualities.

• The first is "impassibility", which shall place them beyond the reach of pain and inconvenience. "It is sown", says the Apostle, "in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15:42). The Schoolmen call this quality impassibility', not incorruption, so as to mark it as a peculiarity of the glorified body; the bodies of the damned will be incorruptible indeed, but not impassible; they shall be subject to heat and cold, and all manner of pain." CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: General Resurrection

scrolled through here

Skidder said:

I agree! When someone says something like this: "And no I have not eliminated "hell".

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Dear Skid: All four hells are consummated in the Lake of Theos. There is no need for us rascals to eliminate it, our God swallows it!

Skidder said:

I agree! When someone says something like this: "And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose." That sounds like they trying to play God, that even sounds a little spooky.

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Spooky?
This coming from the guys who claim our loving heavenly Father is planning to burn his own children. Spooky?

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

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Skidder said: ↑
I agree! When someone says something like this: "And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose." That sounds like they trying to play God, that even sounds a little spooky.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saint Steven said:

Look at all the fighting going on here at a Christian forum.
So many different views and everyone tearing each other apart over a book.

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"There are many persons of combative tendencies, who read for ammunition, and dig out of the Bible iron for balls. They read, and they find nitre and charcoal and sulphur for powder. They read, and they find cannon. They read, and they make portholes and embrasures. And if a man does not believe as they do, they look upon him as an enemy, and let fly the Bible at him to demolish him. So men turn the word of God into a vast arsenal, filled with all manner of weapons, offensive and defensive." -Henry Ward Beecher

Skidder said:

Yes, this is a very spooky statement "And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose."

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I'm happy to share the spookiness with you, since you claimed I had eliminated hell.
How else should I respond?

Skidder said:

It sounds like the statement of dictator or cult leader, read it again: "And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose."

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I suppose anyone who tries to take away your prized possession must be perceived as some sort of monster. Because Christianity wouldn't REALLY be Christianity without eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. Feel the love. - lol

God loves his enemies. So should we.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

FineLinen said:

Dear Skid: It is not heaven that our thirsty souls seek. It is Him!

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Well, the Kingdom. It was His only Gospel.

Saint Steven said:

No argument there? Not true.
No, but I know quite a bit that you don't.
The Apostles and the Early Church Fathers of the Eastern/Greek church were what we now call Universalists.
The Western/Latin church gave us our Damnationist biased Bible which painted the Apostles as Damnationists.
Check this out.
"Taking a rapid survey of facts, I think we may thus arrange early eschatological teaching. There were at first, probably, three distinct currents. Some held the final annihilation of the wicked; some, especially in North Africa, held their endless punishment; some, perhaps even a majority, taught Universalism. By the days of GREGORY of Nyssa the latter view, aided doubtless by the unrivaled learning, genius and piety of ORIGEN had prevailed, and had succeeded in leavening, not the East alone, but much of the West (pp. 148-50). While the doctrine of annihilation has practically disappeared, Universalism has established itself, has become the prevailing opinion, even in quarters antagonistic to the school of Alexandria.
The waning fortunes of the dogma of endless penalty soon revived, however, and in their turn gained the ascendency. The Church of North Africa, in the person of AUGUSTINE, enters the field. The Greek tongue soon becomes unknown in the West and the Greek Fathers forgotten. A Latin Christianity, redolent of the soil, develops itself, assuming, in accordance with the Roman bent, a rigid forensic type. On the throne of Him whose name is Love, is now seated a stern Judge (a sort of magnified Roman Governor). The sense of sin practically dwarfs all else. The Father is lost in the Magistrate.
In the East the decay of the earlier belief was, if less rapid, nearly as complete. Strife within and without the Church, increasing ignorance and corruptions, bitter controversy (and other factors, p. 159) combined to form a soil in which the larger hope of earlier days at length dwindled and almost expired. Indeed, who can wonder that this was so, if he will but reflect how cruel was the age, how narrow is the natural heart of man, how slowly, even now, it responds to that which is most divine. The true wonder (to me, at least) is this, viz., the appearance in such an age as that of the later Roman empire of the very idea of Universalism - a phenomenon which can, I think, be alone accounted for by the fact that the early Fathers found it, as they tell us, in the New Testament, p. 84."
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter five

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Gregory of Nyssa is not a majority. A woeful lack of credible, verifiable, historical evidence in this quote. Something written at or near the times in question by a participant or direct eyewitness. How does Thomas Allin know any of this stuff. Does he have a crystal ball?

Saint Steven said:

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :
"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

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If Schaff-Herzog had actually researched this why did they not know whether it was 5 or 6 centuries. In the article this was quoted from is there anything like credible, verifiable, historical evidence, in addition to the unsupported opinions of the authors?? I just read the complete article @ CCEL there is none, There is a bibliography on p. 97 but it only includes other modern published works. You keep mentioning that "evil" Western/Latin church which gave us "our Damnationist biased Bible" do you happen to know how the Eastern Orthodox Bible translates the Greek word "Gehenna?"

BNR32FAN said:

You won’t find the Trinity in the OT either. Just because something isn’t mentioned in the OT doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. In the New Testament hell aka the lake of fire is mentioned several times.

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Ah, so the Lake of Fire is our chosen candidate. We can push all those others to the side of the plate, can we? Great, that makes my job even easier.

You see, hell is the eternal mass human bbq from whose borne no traveller returns, true? Well if so, I'm dreadfully sorry to disappoint, because the unbelieving nations who are consumed by fire from heaven in Rev 20:9 and cast into the LoF in Rev 20:15 actually emerge to live anew - this time honouring God - in Rev 21:24-26. And what's more, they're purified cause they get to come in through the ever-open gates of the City for healing by the leaves of the tree of life in Rev 22:2. Feel free to check, and follow the trajectory of the nations in these final revelations of scripture starting from Rev 20:7.

So there you have it, case closed and raise an alleluja!

Extra: if God was the kind of deity who consigns his enemies to endless punishment, there would be many others like him - paganism is full of that rubbish. But our God - the one true God - there is NONE LIKE HIM. Because He saves from a to z, yep and even the likes of you and me.

Skidder said:

No matter how much you try to sugar it up, this statement is flat out creepy:

"And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose."

Who do you think you are? God? Why does God need YOU to redefine hell and give it purpose? I think God can take care of Himself. Like I said... creepy and spooky, and sounds like something a dictator or cult leader would say. No surprise that FineLinen agreed with it.

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You have crossed the line into personal attacks.

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Skidder said: ↑
No matter how much you try to sugar it up, this statement is flat out creepy:

"And no I have not eliminated "hell". I have redefined it; given it purpose."

Who do you think you are? God? Why does God need YOU to redefine hell and give it purpose? I think God can take care of Himself. Like I said... creepy and spooky, and sounds like something a dictator or cult leader would say. No surprise that FineLinen agreed with it.