Hell is a 404

For an absolute to create a finite, let his child be fooled by a superior Satan being, and then torture that child for an eternity for his confusion, that's a special kind of monster God no better than the ISIS concept of God! No such God exists! The OP is well researched and a just defence of the character of the real God of Love. Well done!

John Hyperspace said:

Indeed. Hell is especially 404 when we get to the writings of the apostles. Hell is such a terrible place to end up in that, none of the apostles ever talk much about it. It's almost like, either the apostles were totally unaware of any such a place, or, they just left it out of all their letters so Christians after them could have all of the fun threatening people with it.

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Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Sarcasm does not make an argument valid.

But it doesn't seem to matter how many verses you cite about, every knee bowing (Philippians 2:10), everything in heaven and earth being subdued to Christ (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:28), Jesus being the Saviour of the world (John 4:42, 1 John 4:14, 1 Timothy 4:10), God reconciling all things to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:20). None of that matters because they can point to a few verses (usually in symbolic passages) that have the word "fire" in them and then say "See? God will not reconcile all things to Him, Christ isn't the Saviour of the world, He won't subdue all things to Him, every knee won't bow; because this verse has the word 'fire' in it; and oh, this verse says 'punishment' so you see? Everyone burns in horrific suffering for all of time except for me! That's the good news! None of the apostles said any of this because they left it all to me to say!" and you can just reply, "Truly you have a dizzying intellect" and leave it at that.

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What does "every knee will bow" mean? Do you honestly think that all mankind will willingly, humbly bow before God?
Anyone can make scripture say almost they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done.

I just a quick search because I know for a fact hell does exist, and found that hell is often confused with the lake of fire according to this website http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html. Hell is referring to sheol (hades in greek) which is a place were souls go once they die the first death, referred to in Revelation 2:11. The second death is eternal, not the first death, and this is where the lake of fire exists as a place of eternal punishment and separation from God. This is where the confusion lies because hell is often mistranslated as to be the lake of fire but how can that be if on the final day death and hell are cast into the lake of fire according to revelation 20:14. So while you may have identified the confusion, to say that a place of eternal separation of God and punishment doesn't exist is blasphemy. Your right there is no connection between Satan and hell but there is between Satan and the Lake of fire. God warns of the second death, where there is the lake of fire.

Also points 2, 3, 12, 13, 14, 15 you made is your opinion. Hell is a real place, and the lake of fire is a real place, but they are not the same.

Lazarus Short said:

If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?

The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.

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Listen, I know as well as you that history is full of people that have used bible verses to justify there actions and beliefs, doesn't make it right. Your conclusions is a way of trying to explain away a place of eternal torment and seperation from God. I know hell is a real place because the bible says so, and I know the lake of fire is a real place because Jesus says so. Gensis two says that man became a living being in the RSVCE which is used by most scholars, and the NIV, and it says man became a living soul in the KJV. This is not the same as a spirit. IN fact paul says the first adam was made a living soul, in 1 corinthians 15:45 but the second Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a quickening spirit. So souls were made by God, and after the first death they go to hell, followed by the second death.

Lazarus Short said:

You are also filtering your OT understanding through centuries of rabbinical tradition, aren't you? Layers of Christian theology versus layers of Jewish theology - it's difficult enough to dig out the truth, without posters who won't admit their biases...

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While I concede that we all have biases to a greater or lesser degree. To counter any biases I may have I refer to Hebrew and Greek grammars and lexicons and consult credible, verifiable, historical sources. Rejecting those sources out-of-hand as "rabbinical traditions" does not disprove them and reflects some bias of your own.

Lazarus Short said:

I know what you are implying, and in fact I kept my study tools very simple, but I did use interlinear texts when needed. No, I am not proficient with Hebrew or Greek. However, I found that Hell is such an unworthy opponent, that I did not need to be a linguist to demonstrate that it is a 404. As I continued, I began to suspect trickery on the part of the KJV translators, but nailing that down was not my main goal, just a By The Way.

You tell me to begin with faith, etc...and then ask what our Savior is for? Do you not know that He came to save us from our sins, and from death? I never saw a statement that Jesus the Christ came to save us from Hell.

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Perhaps what I am saying is that your POV that you don't need any further study could be in error?

I questioned how why you accepted Christ as Savior---from what did you ask Him to save you if not death & hell?

If there is no hell, why did Scripture say that he resurrected with the keys to "death and hell" ?

Billy Graham wrote:

In fact, it may surprise you to learn that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. He told us that God is absolutely holy and just, and some day He will judge all evil. Think about that a moment. Do you honestly believe that tyrants who were responsible for the deaths of millions... or parents who abused or killed their children... or people who lashed out in hate at people of another race... or terrorists who killed countless innocent lives will never be judged? Do you honestly believe God will simply shrug His shoulders (so to speak) and ignore their evil? Of course He won't.

Jesus called hell a place of outer darkness where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12). The Bible calls it a place of "gloomy dungeons" and "torment" (2 Peter 2:4; Luke 16:23). Most of all, hell will be the exact opposite of heaven, because its inhabitants will be separated from God forever.

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Now, God's Word says that He didn't create this for mankind but for the rebellious angels and their leader.

Jesus describes hell as a reality and He spoke on hell three times as much as He ever did on heaven, thereby signifying the importance on believing in such a place. Hell is like a fiery furnace and there will be weeping (with anger and/or eternal regret) and gnashing of teeth (in anger and/or in pain). This weeping and gnashing of teeth is mentioned twice so as to emphasize the reality of hell.

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http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/08/what-did-jesus-say-or-teach-about-hell/

Lazarus Short said:

If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?

The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.

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I think sarcasm isn't good especially for such a serious subject. You are defying the very Word of God with your denial of a place called "hell". If you cannot believe the Word of God to be totally true, then upon what do you base the assurance of your salvation?

As for your above comment, Scripture tells us in Psalm 139 "whither shall I flee from Your Spirit" ? verse 8 says, 'If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

God is Omnipresent. To me, this means that those who say hell/sheol is absence of the Presence of God might mean that without His comfort instead? Surely part of being in torment is to see others in peace imo.

Lazarus Short said:

If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?
The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.

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In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Lazarus Short said:

I'm glad to see you quoting the Bible, but your selections look fairly selective as well - and no context.

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When have I not quoted scripture? Not selective at all I quoted every verse which speaks of God's enemies being placed under the the feet of Jesus. A practice in that culture was when a enemy was defeated the conquered king is brought before the conqueror, made to kneel and the victorious king would put his foot on the back of the neck of prisoner. Every knee will bow, some in willing submission and some by force.

Der Alter said:

Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Sarcasm does not make an argument valid.

What does "every knee will bow" mean? Do you honestly think that all mankind will willingly, humbly bow before God?
Romans 16:20
(20) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1 Corinthians 15:25
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:27
(27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Ephesians 1:22
(22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Hebrews 2:8
(8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Anyone can make scripture say almost they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done.

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Right, like, you were His enemy and He put you under His foot: Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, notice how you were His enemy, but He reconciled you to God. Just like scripture says: Colossians 1:20-21: notice the clear phrase "all things" "in earth" and "in heaven": so it's written again: 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: notice not just reconciling you (you're not special) but "the world" by which we know: 1 Timothy 4:10

But for some reason many professing Christians just love to think they're special, and God won't do for others what He did for them. Even when God says He can, and promises He will. So which is it, universal reconciliation doesn't mean what it says; or, suffer in fire for all of time doesn't mean what it, doesn't even say? It's always odd that some Christians absolutely reject any idea of universal reconciliation (which is clearly taught), but adamnatly cling to the idea of people suffering forever unreconciled (which is not clearly taught at all). It's backward. But, I suppose this is the way it is supposed to be for now. Isaiah 59:14

John Hyperspace said:

Right, like, you were His enemy and He put you under His foot: Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, notice how you were His enemy, but He reconciled you to God. Just like scripture says: Colossians 1:20-21: notice the clear phrase "all things" "in earth" and "in heaven": so it's written again: 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: notice not just reconciling you (you're not special) but "the world" by which we know: 1 Timothy 4:10

But for some reason many professing Christians just love to think they're special, and God won't do for others what He did for them. Even when God says He can, and promises He will. So which is it, universal reconciliation doesn't mean what it says; or, suffer in fire for all of time doesn't mean what it, doesn't even say? It's always odd that some Christians absolutely reject any idea of universal reconciliation (which is clearly taught), but adamnatly cling to the idea of people suffering forever unreconciled (which is not clearly taught at all). It's backward. But, I suppose this is the way it is supposed to be for now. Isaiah 59:14

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I think it would help the thread conversation if you can keep to the subject line and of what do YOU think, and not be pointing out what some Christians you've heard might think as part of your argument? Surely we all can cite others who have various and sundry beliefs, some wrong and some more correct. What matters, to me at least, is for you to give YOUR input on whether hell is a 404 error code or not and why you believe the way you do. What say you?

John Hyperspace said:

Right, like, you were His enemy and He put you under His foot: Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, notice how you were His enemy, but He reconciled you to God. Just like scripture says: Colossians 1:20-21: notice the clear phrase "all things" "in earth" and "in heaven": so it's written again: 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: notice not just reconciling you (you're not special) but "the world" by which we know: 1 Timothy 4:10

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How does any of this refute my previous post?
When will the words of Jesus change to "Everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven whether they say Lord, Lord or not?" When will the words of Jesus "I never knew you" change to "Now I know you?

Der Alter said:

How does any of this refute my previous post?

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I'm not trying to refute your post. Your post is citations of scripture. I'm showing how your posts support the biblical truth of universal reconciliation. You and I, and every Christian, was once the enemy of God. He has "subdued us to Him" through the Holy Spirit; through love and forgiveness; to causing the "day star to rise" in our hearts, as the scripture teaches. Verses showing that "all his enemies will be made His footstool" are showing that, all of His enemies will become cooperative with Him. For more clarity, the OT defines the symbol of the "footstool" as the dominion of Israel (the santuary of Judah being the "throne"): thus these verses are a symbolic way of saying "All that are not of Israel will be made into Israel" meaning, all will come under His dominion: i.e. every knee will willingly bow, and every tongue will willingly confess.

The point being that citing "His enemies will be made His footstool" doesn't refute universal reconciliation, but supports it. Christ is not only able to subdue all things to Him (Philippians 3:21), but scripture clearly teaches that He will subdue all things to Him (1 Corinthians 15:28). When the Lord told Adam to "subdue" the earth (Genesis 1:28) He wasn't telling Adam to burn it all to the ground; but to bring it under His dominion. To "subdue" you enemies means to bring them under your dominion to become of service to you; as in subduing a wild beast.

Der Alter said:

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When will the words of Jesus change to "Everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven whether they say Lord, Lord or not?" When will the words of Jesus "I never knew you" change to "Now I know you?

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They will change to "now I know you" at the end of the age of ages: 1 Corinthians 15:24 and this is fulfilled: Revelation 21:5, "all things" being made "new" after having had the "old" destroyed "as it were by fire"; this is the "death" of the "old" and the "birth" of the "new": 2 Corinthians 5:17 which again is why it is written that "the former things are passed away" when "all things" are made new: Revelation 21:4

If you want to know how and why and when these things happen, look at your own life. When you were an enemy to God, He wouldn't have you in His presence, and He did not know you: when did that change to "Now I know you"? It will happen to them according to the way it happened to you; when God gives them a new heart to know Him: Jeremiah 24:7, Ezekiel 36:26: this is done at the time appointed by God, according to the counsel of His own purpose. Ecclesiastes 3:1-3 and again "He makes all things beautiful in His time: Ecclesiastes 3:11