Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

[Timothew]

Philliians 1:28 does not say that the wicked live forever in hell being tortured.

 

[Anto9us]

"of vessels"

"of money"

look at the QUALIFICATIONS of the definitions

and the qualification that can mean PEOPLE

references ETERNAL MISERY IN HELL

 

[Hillsage]

There is not even one verse in the entire Bible that says people go to live in Hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead. But the bible does say that the wicked will be no more and only those who put their faith in God will have eternal life.

As always, we are in agreement about eternal purposeless torture. But if the price of sin is eternal annihilation then Jesus didn't fully pay the price for sin, for anybody.

 

[Anto9us]

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[Anto9us]

Don't tell me - lemme guess - John in REVELATION "doesn't count" cuz it's apocalyptic literature - Jesus in Luke "doesn't count cuz its a parable - the two Pauline verses I gave "don't count" as meaning "eternal misery in hell"

because there are OTHER DEFINITIONS that apply to "vessels" and "money"

so you are justified in LOOKING AWAY from the one definition that can apply to PEOPLE

IF anyone takes the time to actually READ what I have posted - they can see that I believe in NEITHER

endless torture

or

annihilation

I have been saying ALL THREAD LONG that the Bible's descriptions of the afterlife of the wicked are varied and ambiguous

they are word-pictures which should be looked at with as much scrutiny as can be ascertained with all the language tools we've got

but to arrive at EITHER "annihilation" or "endless torture" is sheer eisogesis and an AVOIDANCE of looking at ALL the verses and ALL the definitions of a Greek word that can be pictured as destruction of vessels but as "eternal misery" for people

If you don't look at black and white - I don't know what else I can say

I have no "doctrine to defend"

I just say there is no clear case for either annihilation or eternal torment

and what of "few stripes" and "many stripes"?

that is also a valid New Testament word-picture of unfavorable afterlife

 

[Hillsage]

And you haven't proven that olethros does not mean destruction. And that's not all Paul says. You also need to prove that thanatos doesn't really mean death in Romans 6:23.
But I can tell that nothing is going to convince you that death really means death.

I would agree that it does mean destruction, but that does not mean annihilation of the 'person'. Indeed it is the destruction of 'sinful flesh' that one may get a glorified body/flesh, which is not sinful. And your SAVED spirit will live in that glorified body/flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction/Olethros of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And the degree of 'glorified body' that you receive will be dependent upon how much of your SOUL you sanctified while still alive in the flesh. The part that surrendered to the mind of Christ will live on. But the part of the soul taht did not, will also be destroyed.

1Cor 15:41 ...another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead.

 

[Anto9us]

" if the price of sin is eternal annihilation then Jesus didn't fully pay the price for sin, for anybody. "

That's true enough also, Hillsage.

 

[Anto9us]

Again, I point out that when the devil was cast into the lake of Fire - the Beast and the False Prophet HAD ALREADY BEEN IN THAT LAKE for the Millennium!

You can try to dismiss it as "apocalyptic literature" - or you can realize it for what it is - another biblical New Testament word-picture which has a logical time sequence - Beast and False Prophet already there - devil thrown in later

and you can look as closely as you like to this lake of fire/second death and you will NOT SEE ANYWHERE that anyone is "annihilated"

the fact that the beast and false prophet LASTED A MILLENNIUM kinda speaks against annihilation here, don't you agree?

If the purpose of Lake is Fire is ANNIHILATION

it was NOT WORKIN VERY WELL for the Beast and the False Prophet AT ALL!

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

A parable with a meaning so hidden as to hide the truth from everyone who reads it.

The only people who can read these parables are the people who speak the language.

They speak the language because they have a chart with a design.


No matter who is right or wrong about the true meaning of the parable, it is no less a parable with a hidden meaning.

Your not giving any proof of anything with this parable.


A master comes home and cuts his servant in two pieces.

Does this mean he was sawed in two?

The ten virgins will be told where to go and buy oil but they will be too late.

Is it really about them having oil?

 

[Anto9us]

"The Sodomites were not kept alive forever being tortured. According to the Bible (which you find so tiresome) the wicked will be destroyed just as Sodom was destroyed."

Sodom - the souls of the people there - have NOT been "annihilated".

The city was destroyed - the people suffered death - but THAT IS NOT THE LAST WORD ABOUT SODOM!!

Luk 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

The souls of the Sodomites face a future judgement - which is said to be more "tolerable" than the judgement will be for others. IF it is "tolerable" in any degree more or less than other people's judgement is TOLERABLE - than they (the Sodomite souls) are CONSCIOUS to
TOLERATE Their judgement.

NOT "annihilated" - CONSCIOUS so as to have a "judgement more tolerable than others' judgement."

Yet ANOTHER New Testament word-picture of

"unfavorable afterlife"

showing definite DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT --

just as the "few stripes" - "many stripes" description shows DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT

and there are no "degrees of punishment" in ANNIHILATION - if you are annihilated you are EQUALLY annihilated with other "annihilatees"

therefore annihilation does NOT JIVE WITH THESE NEW TESTAMENT DESCRIPTIONS OF THE UNFAVORABLE AFTERLIFE!

 

[n2thelight]

Being thrown in the lake of Fire is the second death

If I understand God's grace - I am hoping it will have no power over me - you too!

But as far as any description of whether anyone will retain any consciousness in the Lake of Fire or be annihilated out of existence - I don't see either way discussed in the Bible

Nor whether the Second Death will last any longer than the FIRST DEATH - which obviously wasn't endless - was it ? - since a second death came along after it, the first death was neither endless nor a total annihilation

If I read the book of Revelation's portrayal correctly of the Lake of Fire - the Beast and the False Prophet were in there for a thousand years - that's a pretty slow annihilation if it means an incineration to annihilation - Beast and false prophet stayed in there through the MIllenium - were STILL THERE when the devil was tossed in

Can the soul die,or is it immortal..... Also your understanding of the beast and the false prophet as it relates to the lake of fire is off...Where do you see the beast and false prophet being in the lake for 1000 years and coming out of it.......?

 

[Anto9us]

I don't see the beast and false prophet "coming out of" the lake of fire - I never said that!

I am not "off" that those two were already there and then the devil was thrown in later

I will post the quote from Revelation again

 

[Anto9us]

　
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. http://www.christianforums.com/stud.../lconc/21HYPERLINK/lcomm/21HYPERLINK/lcomm/21

http://www.christianforums.com/t7766059-8/l vrsn/21HYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/21

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
...
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...INK/lconc/6HYPERLINK/lcomm/6HYPERLINK/lcomm/6

http://www.christianforums.com/t776...NKHYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/6

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, http://www.christianforums.com/stud...INK/lconc/8HYPERLINK/lcomm/8HYPERLINK/lcomm/8

http://www.christianforums.com/t776...NKHYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/8

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...INK/lconc/9HYPERLINK/lcomm/9HYPERLINK/lcomm/9

http://www.christianforums.com/t7766059-8/l vrsn/9HYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/9

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. http://www.christianforums.com/stud.../lconc/10HYPERLINK/lcomm/10HYPERLINK/lcomm/10

http://www.christianforums.com/t7766059-8/l vrsn/10HYPERLINKHYPERLINKHYPERLINK#dict/10

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

 

[n2thelight]

I don't see the beast and false prophet "coming out of" the lake of fire - I never said that!

I am not "off" that those two were already there and then the devil was thrown in later

I will post the quote from Revelation again

Gotcha!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

Is the soul Immortal?

 

[Anto9us]

"Can the soul die - or is it immortal?"

I - unlike others in this thread - am not declaring "definite doctrines" - I am trying to show the AMBIGUITIES that exist which should preclude people being dogmatic about such things as "eternal punishment" or "annihilation"

　
Mat 10:28 "And fear not them which
kill
the body, but are not able to
kill
the soul: but rather fear him which is able to
destroy
both soul and body in hell. "
　
NOTICE the phrase "both body and soul IN HELL" (someone said no bible verse ever pictured souls going to hell)

KILL is used twice - Destroy is used once - I will give the definitions from Strong's for both Greek words - you DO SEE that a DIFFERENT word is used to speak of a destruction of "both body and soul IN HELL"

first word - kill

Strong's G615 - apokteinō
　
"kill" as in "can kill the body" "cannot kill the soul" in Matthew 10:28

Strong's G615 - apokteinō

1) to kill in any way whatever
a) to destroy, to allow to perish
2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish
a) to inflict mortal death
b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

　
2nd word

"destroy" as "destroy both body and soul IN HELL"

Strong's G622 - apollymi
　
1) to destroy
a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
b) render useless

c) to kill

d) to declare that one must be put to death

e) metaph. to devote or give over to



eternal misery in hell



f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
a) to lose

 

[Anto9us]

How bout YOU, n2thelight - you think the soul is immortal or that it can be snuffed out like a candle?

Why?

What verses and/or reasoning guides you if you be definite about the soul?

Awakened4Christ in the OP was "really torn up" about this eternal punishment jazz - I am trying to agree with the forgotten original OP that THERE IS NO DEFINITE BASIS to hold such a doctrine -- along the way I also say there is NO DEFINITE BASIS to hold Annihilationsim,

and I say now that

I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE SOUL but I can sure look at some verses about it

 

[n2thelight]

How bout YOU, n2thelight - you think the soul is immortal or that it can be snuffed out like a candle?

Why?

What verses and/or reasoning guides you if you be definite about the soul?

Awakened4Christ in the OP was "really torn up" about this eternal punishment jazz - I am trying to agree with the forgotten original OP that THERE IS NO DEFINITE BASIS to hold such a doctrine -- along the way I also say there is NO DEFINITE BASIS to hold Annihilationsim,

and I say now that

I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE SOUL but I can sure look at some verses about it

I think the souls of the unsaved after the Great White Throne judgement,will cease to exist.....

My main reason out side of scripture is that,I don't feel the punishment(eternal suffering)not even for satan,fits the crime....I can't see my Father torturing His children forever,I have 3(children)and I couldn't see them suffer for a second,and He loves me more than I can ever love mine.....

Scriptually,I'll just go with the below

The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternallife through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Could anything be clearer than this text? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:

MATTHEW 7:13-14

“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death

 

[Anto9us]

I understand your reasons for not believing in eternal punishment.

I tend to think souls are eternal, but refuse to be dogmatic about it - and refuse to accept that one has a dichotomy of "annihilation" or "eternal torment".

I don't believe in either one - the Bible never forces me to choose between one or the other - the Nicene Creed does not force me to choose between one or the other - neither Bible nor Creed insists that I swear to a firm position about any of that or the nature of the soul.

As for as THE WAGES OF SIN BEING DEATH

I think it bears looking into what Hillsage said - and what seems to me was behind his words --

If Death means DEATH - then Christ has paid the wages on our behalf - Christ suffered death for us.

If Death means ANNIHILATION - then, no, Christ has not paid that.

Nobody here would say that Christ was annihilated - so if the wages of sin IS DEATH

but

MEANS

"annihilation" --

then we are all in our sins yet

there has been no ransom, no price paid on our behalf

Christianity seems to want to force one into a dichotomy concerning the ORIGIN of the soul as well --

Traducianism or Creationism

I consider both to be a crock

I refuse to accept false dichotomies concerning either the origin or the final end of the human soul

At the beginning of an old Grand Funk song - a kid said

"If yer good - you live forever - but if yer bad - you die when you die"

but that was just in a Grand Funk song

There is probably a reason why "Annihilation" is on the LIST of things in the SOP that can only be discussed in UT

I certainly don't call it a heresy, I just don't believe it

I believe the wages of sin is death - but the wages of sin is NOT "annihilation" - Adam and Eve were not annihilated when they sinned -- but they evidently suffered some sort of "death" in the garden - unless God is a liar - for he said "in the day ye eat of it - ye shall die"

the "WAGES" are already in effect

they have been paid for by the DEATH of Christ - He actually died

but He was not annihilated - nor could he ever be

 

[n2thelight]

I believe the wages of sin is death - but the wages of sin is NOT "annihilation" - Adam and Eve were not annihilated when they sinned -- but they evidently suffered some sort of "death" in the garden - unless God is a liar - for he said "in the day ye eat of it - ye shall die"

the "WAGES" are already in effect

they have been paid for by the DEATH of Christ - He actually died

but He was not annihilated - nor could he ever be

So what would be your definition of death?

Here's how I see it...We will all die the first death or be changed at Christ return,whichever comes first.......Therefore the 2nd death has to be annihilation......

PSALM 37:20
But the wicked will perish: The LORD’s enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish – vanish like smoke.