Hell: I am not seeing eternal torment in the scriptures

[Anto9us]

Here's where they be people TAWKIN in hell - are they talking in their SOUL SLEEP?

Are they tawkin out of the midst of annihilation?

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

[Anto9us]

I know its not talking about one person - it's talking about ALL THE DEAD - I'm saying at this "late stage of the game" (Great White Judgement) their souls should already be in hades anyway - even if their bodies were "in the sea" - and they would ALL be in the realm of thanatos

 

[Anto9us]

King Saul had prohibited using witches to call up the dead - then he wanted to call up Samuel from the grave and asked him sumpn - so King Saul broke his own rule and called in the witch of Endor

　
1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/10HYPERLINK//lcomm/10HYPERLINK//lcomm/10

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/10HYPERLINK/ldict/10HYPERLINK/ldict/10

1Sa 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, [As] the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/11HYPERLINK//lcomm/11HYPERLINK//lcomm/11

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/11HYPERLINK/ldict/11HYPERLINK/ldict/11

1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/12HYPERLINK//lcomm/12HYPERLINK//lcomm/12

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/12HYPERLINK/ldict/12HYPERLINK/ldict/12

1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/13HYPERLINK//lcomm/13HYPERLINK//lcomm/13

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/13HYPERLINK/ldict/13HYPERLINK/ldict/13

1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/14HYPERLINK//lcomm/14HYPERLINK//lcomm/14

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/14HYPERLINK/ldict/14HYPERLINK/ldict/14

1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself. http://www.christianforums.com/stud...conc/15HYPERLINK//lcomm/15HYPERLINK//lcomm/15

http://www.christianforums.com/l im.../lvrsn/15HYPERLINK/ldict/15HYPERLINK/ldict/15

1Sa 28:15 ¶ And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

 

[Anto9us]

Jesus in the parable of the beggar Lazarus and the Rich Man said the rich man was in hell - in tormenting flames - and called unto father Abraham to let someone go tell his (the rich man's) brothers - about "this place of torment" - so his brothers could avoid winding up there.

Abraham tells him his brothers can listen to Moses and the Prophets like everybody else - and goes on to say

THERE IS A GULF THAT CANNOT BE BRIDGED

about someone crossing from the dead back to the living.

And yet you can see in the 1 Samuel passage that I quoted above that Samuel did JUST THAT - crossed the gulf while dead and spoke with Saul.

It was WRONG - it was WITCHCRAFT - but it HAPPENNED.

So I don't think we should be too dogmatic about the afterlife -- references to it in the Bible are simply NOT THAT CONSISTENT.

If Jesus Himself tells a story that says "no crossing the gulf from one side to the other"

and the OT has a case where the prophet Samuel did indeed cross back over and talk to King Saul

I think there's a bit of leeway concerning what the afterlife is like

only way I can reconcile it is that the "crossing over" that could not happen was in the "pre-resurrection" afterlife where "Abraham's Bosom" was separated from "the bad place"

and as I understand it - "Abraham's Bosom" with its inhabitants has been transported to heaven and the Bad Place is still the same - still there

Jesus went there and preached - I don't think it was good news - but they were conscious and heard Him

 

[Anto9us]

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Anto9us]

I guess the GULF was between Abraham's Bosom and Hell -- you could SEE across - but not go across.

Oh well.

I have always had trouble accepting that the soul of Samuel

OBEYED a witch

and allowed himself to be "called up".

 

[n2thelight]

I am not seeing any definitive sound doctrine on the concept of eternal torment. The closest I can see is Revelation 20:10, but should 1 verse( or maybe 2) from one book dictate the entire belief of hell or should the overwhelming verses that tell us that those not saved will destroyed, perish, reduced to ashes etc. To me this is truly a debatable topic and yet often times there are groups who are against eternal torment but are widely considered heretical groups. So it saddens me that heretical group(s) have kind of turned off people to the possibility. This is just tearing me apart. Any help or insight would be welcomed.

Simple reason,because it's not there...........

Try the site below,excellent study

Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically

 

[Timothew]

Here's where they be people TAWKIN in hell - are they talking in their SOUL SLEEP?

Are they tawkin out of the midst of annihilation?

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

By Golly you are right. Dead people talk in Hell. I guess the dead aren't really dead after all. Of course, that same chapter tells us that trees talk.
"Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say..." (Isaiah 14:8)

If you have proven that the dead are alive in torment while they are dead in Sheol, then you have also proven that trees can talk.

But according to the scriptures, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) NOT eternal conscious torment in Hell.

You have taken the figurative taunt in Isaiah 14 literally. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment. Read John 3:16, the only two outcomes are to perish or to have eternal life. Having eternal life in Hell being tortured alive forever while you are dead is not one of the possibilities. As a matter of fact, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that says that Bad people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead. But over and over the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more.

 

[Anto9us]

"You have taken the figurative taunt in Isaiah 14 literally."

No I haven't.

I have said all through this thread that we have "word-pictures" of the state of the afterlife in all parts of the Bible - and that these word-pictures differ widely.

The dead TALKING in Isaiah 14 is a word-picture - if trees are pictured talking - what of it? YOU say I take it literally - I DO NOT - I simply report it as a word-picture

You wrongly accuse me of taking something LITERAL.

I do not take ANYTHING describing HELL or the AFTERLIFE OF THE UNGODLY as LITERAL

For one thing - the word-pictures DO NOT MATCH

I have posted an OT reference where it says that there is silence in the grave, I have posted another passage that shows Samuel called up and talking to King Saul.

I have posted a New Testament reference where the "punishment" in the afterlife is "few stripes" or "many stripes" - which does not jive with punishment pictured as "endless torment" lasting "unto ages of ages"; nor do the "stripes" jive with FLAMES as in the parable of the beggar Lazarus and the Rich man

I am trying to show that biblical portrayals of the afterlife of the wicked ARE NOT CONSISTENT

and there is no way one could be led to EITHER a doctrine of

endless torment

OR

annihilation

based on these varying and differing word-pictures.

As far as trees talking, Jesus told those who scoffed him and wanted the Hosannah crowd to be QUIET

that even if He queited the crowd, that NATURAL OBJECTS THEMSELVES WOULD CRY OUT!

Was He crazy?

Do Jesus and Isaiah HAVE YOUR PERMISSION to use such word-pictures as objects of nature TALKING and CRYING OUT?

Or should we cut these verses out of the Bible?

 

[Anto9us]

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed [be] the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

 

[Der Alte]

By Golly you are right. Dead people talk in Hell. I guess the dead aren't really dead after all. Of course, that same chapter tells us that trees talk.
"Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon
gloat over you and say..." (Isaiah 14:8)

If you have proven that the dead are alive in torment while they are dead in Sheol, then you have also proven that trees can talk.

Repeating the same objection over and over does not make it true. So tell us how much of Isaiah is figurative and how much is factual? If we were to arbitrarily say, as you do, that Isaiah 14 is figurative, we would have to conclude that Israel and Jacob, vv. 1-2. did not exist. There was no king of Babylon, v. 4, he was only figurative. Since the king of Babylon is figurative then he could not have enslaved and brutalized the figurative people of Israel, v. 6. Since the king of Babylon is only figurative he did not die, was not buried, and he was not covered with worms, vv. 9-11. So tell us what is all this SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, and figurative language trying to tell us if nothing in the chapter is factual?

Or we could use common sense. There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." In other words don't arbitrarily make literal language, figurative, just to fit your assumptions/presuppositions. Common sense tells us that trees do not literally move or talk, so that must be figurative. Although God did make a donkey talk once. We do not have any eye witness accounts of what exactly happens to a person after death, so we cannot dismiss Isaiah 14:9 as figurative.

But according to the scriptures, the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) NOT eternal conscious torment in Hell.

Endlessly repeating this does not prove your argument. Yes, the wages of sin is death. Also, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment. Everybody dies, no exceptions, so Rom 6:23 is fulfilled. But scripture does not say the wages of sin is death, then resurrection, followed by the second death or annihilation.

You have taken the figurative taunt in Isaiah 14 literally. The penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment. Read John 3:16, the only two outcomes are to perish or to have eternal life. Having eternal life in Hell being tortured alive forever while you are dead is not one of the possibilities. As a matter of fact, there is not one verse in the entire Bible that says that Bad people go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead. But over and over the Bible says that the wicked will perish and will be no more.

The words translated perish in the NT do not necessarily mean annihilation. The Greek word [size=+1]"ἀπόλλυμι[/size]/appolumi, sometimes translated "destruction," occurs 86 times in the N.T. In 55, 64%, of those verses it does not mean annihilation. For example from the BAG definition of appolumi.

of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer## ejn macaivrh/ aj# die by the sword Mt 26:52 # limw`/ of hunger #Ezk 34:29 # Lk 15:17 # th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c #because of 11a and b it should perh# = be corrupted; cf# Polyb# 32, 23, 6## uJpo; tino" # Hdt# 5# 126; Dio Chrys# 13#7#, 12# uJpo; t# o#fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ;

of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 # w# ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ## Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey

Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12# Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3#—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 # cf# Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ## Of a lost son Lk 15:24-

BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[Anto9us]

Isaiah talks about trees talking, Jesus talks about rocks talking.

So?

 

[Anto9us]

The bible talks about the dead talking, the dead being silent in the grave, the dead suffering in flames, the dead receiving whippings of few or many stripes -- all these DIFFERENT portrayals

but all we ever hear from the "Annihilation crowd"

is

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH

Gosh - people - pick the needle up off the turntable off of the broken record

and see other verses

 

[Timothew]

The bible talks about the dead talking, the dead being silent in the grave, the dead suffering in flames, the dead receiving whippings of few or many stripes -- all these DIFFERENT portrayals

but all we ever hear from the "Annihilation crowd"

is

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH

Gosh - people - pick the needle up off the turntable off of the broken record

and see other verses

Yeah, the Bible is SOOO tiresome. You could also read John 3:16 where it says that "whosover believes in Him will not PERISH but will have ETERNAL LIFE. Perish means to die. Having eternal life means not dying. Neither of these means being tortured alive forever in Hell.

And what other verses are you talking about? There is not one verse in the entire bible that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured or tormented alive forever.

See the other verses:
The soul who sins shall die, Ezekiel 18:4. See? This doesn't say "the soul who sins will never die, but will be tortured in hell forever.
Psalm 37:10 "A little while and the wicked will be no more", This does not say that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured.
Psalm 37:20 "But the wicked will perish". See? The Bible says EXACTLY what we are saying, and the Bible says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you claim, that the wicked will never ever perish but will be kept alive forever being tormented in hell.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They pay the penalty of eternal destruction", exactly the opposite of being never destroyed and tortured forever in hell.
Matthew 10:28 "Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Just the opposite of what you say, that the soul CAN'T be destroyed in Hell, but will be tortured alive forever in Hell.
Or take Jesus Christ's own words, "Unless you repent you will likewise perish" Luke 13:3 and 5. Or do you think that you know more that Jesus Christ? That seems a little arrogant.
Or Jude 7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." The wicked will be destroyed just as Sodom was destroyed. The Sodomites were not kept alive forever being tortured. According to the Bible (which you find so tiresome) the wicked will be destroyed just as Sodom was destroyed. Their destruction was an EXAMPLE of the coming destruction of the ungodly.

Just leave the false doctrine of eternal tormentism and read the truth in the Bible. For the wages of sin is death, (Not eternal torture in Hell) but the gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE (Instead of death) in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is the clear message of the Bible. Eternal Torture is not a doctrine from the Bible. "Surely you will NOT die" is a lie directly from the Devil. "Surely you will not die, you will be tortured alive forever" is a demonic lie.

Death entered the world through sin, but Jesus Christ offers us the gift of eternal life. He died on the cross paying the penalty for sin for us. The penalty is death. That's why His death is able to pay the penalty for us. The penalty is death. If the penalty to be paid were eternal torture in Hell, then the penalty was not paid on the Cross. Jesus was not eternally tortured on the Cross, He died on the Cross for you and me.

 

[Timothew]

Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed [be] the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

None of that says that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever. The Bible never once says that. The Bible does say that the wicked will perish and will not inherit eternal life. I'm going to take a chance and believe the Bible instead of you. Okay? Thanks a lot! Peace.

 

[Timothew]

Isaiah talks about trees talking, Jesus talks about rocks talking.

So?

So in the SAME chapter that says the dead are conscious, Isaiah says that trees can talk. You wouldn't expect me to believe that trees really can talk. But you expect me to believe because of this passage, that dead people are conscious. This is your "proof" that the dead are alive in hell being tortured. Never mind that the Bible never once says that the wicked go to hell to be tortured alive forever when they die. I'm supposed to just take your word for it, in spite of what the Bible says. No thanks.

Jesus said that the unrepentant will perish (Luke 13:3)
I believe Him, and I don't believe you.

 

[Timothew]

Repeating the same objection over and over does not make it true. So tell us how much of Isaiah is figurative and how much is factual? If we were to arbitrarily say, as you do, that Isaiah 14 is figurative, we would have to conclude that Israel and Jacob, vv. 1-2. did not exist. There was no king of Babylon, v. 4, he was only figurative. Since the king of Babylon is figurative then he could not have enslaved and brutalized the figurative people of Israel, v. 6. Since the king of Babylon is only figurative he did not die, was not buried, and he was not covered with worms, vv. 9-11. So tell us what is all this SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, and figurative language trying to tell us if nothing in the chapter is factual?

Or we could use common sense. There is an old maxim about Bible interpretation, "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." In other words don't arbitrarily make literal language, figurative, just to fit your assumptions/presuppositions. Common sense tells us that trees do not literally move or talk, so that must be figurative. Although God did make a donkey talk once. We do not have any eye witness accounts of what exactly happens to a person after death, so we cannot dismiss Isaiah 14:9 as figurative.



Endlessly repeating this does not prove your argument. Yes, the wages of sin is death. Also, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment. Everybody dies, no exceptions, so Rom 6:23 is fulfilled. But scripture does not say the wages of sin is death, then resurrection, followed by the second death or annihilation.



The words translated perish in the NT do not necessarily mean annihilation. The Greek word [SIZE=+1]"ἀπόλλυμι[/SIZE]/appolumi, sometimes translated "destruction," occurs 86 times in the N.T. In 55, 64%, of those verses it does not mean annihilation. For example from the BAG definition of appolumi.

of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer## ejn macaivrh/ aj# die by the sword Mt 26:52 # limw`/ of hunger #Ezk 34:29 # Lk 15:17 # th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c #because of 11a and b it should perh# = be corrupted; cf# Polyb# 32, 23, 6## uJpo; tino" # Hdt# 5# 126; Dio Chrys# 13#7#, 12# uJpo; t# o#fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ;

of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 # w# ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ## Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey

Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12# Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3#—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 # cf# Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ## Of a lost son Lk 15:24-

BAG Greek Lexicon online​

Forget it Der Alter.
Your passage is obviously not to be taken literally. It says "You will take up this taunt against the King of Babylon". This is not proof that dead people are conscious in Sheol. We know for sure that Isaiah is using figurative language. The trees talk. Give it a rest. I've told you this before. Trees can't talk, so this passage uses figurative language. Since it uses figurative language, it can't be used as proof that the dead are conscious in Sheol.

I'm sorry that you don't understand this, but I do. Isaiah 14 is not proof of eternal conscious torment. Try again later, or simply accept the truth. We can inherit eternal life, or not. If we do not inherit eternal life, we get the opposite. Death.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Lazarus is the priesthood in neglect, languishing, about to die.

The dogs are the gentiles who the priesthood was made for.

The dogs lick on this neglected priesthood which is made of sores from neglect.

The rich man is the body which has died and they bury him in the ground, but the angels are sent to collect the spirit, and the spirit is Lazarus.

Jesus warns us that if we do not watch, that the master will come and cut that servant in half.

The meaning of this, is that the spirit was collected back to God, and the body was buried and he did not obtain the resurrection.

But the person who prepares and watches, and follows the lord will obtain the resurrection and not be cut in half.


This parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not stand alone, it is a continued speech that keeps telling you the same thing in a different way.



The Parable of the Shrewd Manager

16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’
3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’
5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’
6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.
“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’
7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’
“‘A thousand bushels[b] of wheat,’ he replied.
“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’
8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
10 “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?
13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.
Additional Teachings

16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

. duplicates


I thought I was loosing every time I tried to post, I kept rewriting.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I guess the GULF was between Abraham's Bosom and Hell -- you could SEE across - but not go across.

Oh well.

I have always had trouble accepting that the soul of Samuel

OBEYED a witch

and allowed himself to be "called up".

The rich man and Lazarus ARE the same person.

He was cut in half just as Jesus warns us against in many places.

The body was buried but the angels came to collect the spirit.


And that's how it will happen on the day of the Lord.

You are in a marriage between the body and the spirit, if you use your body for the gain of wealth instead of choosing the work of God, then, you WILL BE CUT IN HALF.

There shall be two in the field, one taken, and one left behind.

The spirit is collected back to God and the body will lay in the open field for the vultures to have a great feast.

Or you shall be the servant who does not watch, and who did not serve the Lord's people in giving them their due meat in due season.

The master will come and cut you in two.

The entire chapter of Luke 16 is saying the exact same thing, over and over in a different way.

God has given you this body, and this spirit to do his work but both belong to God, but if you have been unfaithful in your duty of serving God, why would God give you a revived powerful spirit with an incorruptible body?

Or if you have been unfaithful in what belongs to another man, who will give you what is your own?

This is the marriage of body and spirit that Jesus is discussing throughout the whole chapter.

If a man divorces his wife{his duty to use his body to spread the gospel and do good works}, to marry another woman{money}, he commits adultery and the man who marries her who was put away, commits adultery.