Hell doesn't exist as a concept in the bible and was man-made

[Paulwat]

Love to get reassurance like this about the fact hell isn't real, but heaven is.

 

[contratodo]

The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17

streams shall become pitch and the dust into brimstone. Isaiah 34:9

Who among us shall dwell with the consuming fire, who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isaiah 33:14

(The wicked) shall be ashes under your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord. Malachi 4:3-4

If any man will hurt them a fire proceeds out of their mouth... and if any man will hurt them they must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:15

The beast and false prophet will hurt them and therefore must be killed by the fire that comes out of their mouth. In this we can see the creation of the lake of fire, it is first kindled by the two prophets, then by the Lord when He returns, He also spews fire from His mouth Revelation 19:21, and then the final fire from the Father Revelation 20:9 destroys the whole world, 2 Peter 3:8-12 Rev 21:1 this world becomes hell, the lake of fire, just as the was said in psalms 9:17.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

(The wicked) shall be ashes under your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord. Malachi 4:3-4

Connect dot:

Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

If any man will hurt them a fire proceeds out of their mouth... and if any man will hurt them they must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:15

The beast and false prophet will hurt them and therefore must be killed by the fire that comes out of their mouth. In this we can see the creation of the lake of fire, it is first kindled by the two prophets, then by the Lord when He returns, He also spews fire from His mouth Revelation 19:21, and then the final fire from the Father Revelation 20:9 destroys the whole world, 2 Peter 3:8-12 Rev 21:1 this world becomes hell, the lake of fire, just as the was said in psalms 9:17.

A little physically sensational, and perhaps NOT as it will go that way, but maybe not so much when we get the other parties on the table for viewing:

Rev. 16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

FWIW, the "world" that will be destroyed is THEIR WORLD and THEIR CITY, Mystery Babylon.

It exists, in ways that we can only perceive, but not see.

Yet their current control is upon ALL who reside in this wicked age of THEIRS.

Their DAY will end at some point. And we will REJOICE for it.

Isaiah 14:7
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

Zech 2
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord.
11 And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
12 And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.
13 Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

No man shall lift his head on that DAY. Guilt has been determined upon ALL.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

But you see, this is actually GOOD NEWS, because it's the TRUTH

Whether we accept it or not, the determination has already been made, like a roasted apple in the cooked pigs mouth

 

[Fervent]

I don't know why any Christian would take Bart Ehrman's word for anything. His methodology is grotesquely flawed and most of what he claims involves coming to the texts with preconceived notions about what is and isn't historical and then throwing out the material that disagrees with whatever he wants to claim.

 

[Der Alte]

The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17

streams shall become pitch and the dust into brimstone. Isaiah 34:9

Who among us shall dwell with the consuming fire, who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? Isaiah 33:14

(The wicked) shall be ashes under your feet in the day that I do this says the Lord. Malachi 4:3-4

If any man will hurt them a fire proceeds out of their mouth... and if any man will hurt them they must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:15

The beast and false prophet will hurt them and therefore must be killed by the fire that comes out of their mouth. In this we can see the creation of the lake of fire, it is first kindled by the two prophets, then by the Lord when He returns, He also spews fire from His mouth Revelation 19:21, and then the final fire from the Father Revelation 20:9 destroys the whole world, 2 Peter 3:8-12 Rev 21:1 this world becomes hell, the lake of fire, just as the was said in psalms 9:17.

Malachi 4:3-4 Refers only to a one time event in this world "in that day". It does not refer to eternal punishment.

 

[Hentenza]

Love to get reassurance like this about the fact hell isn't real, but heaven is.

Both are real.

 

[contratodo]

Malachi 4:3-4 Refers only to a one time event in this world "in that day". It does not refer to eternal punishment

Yes, during the day of the Lord the wicked are consumed away, annihilated. I believe that any due torture would be received in Hades for those who deserve torture, and then Hades itself is thrown into the lake of fire. As shown in my previous post, it is this world that becomes the lake of fire, everything in it consumes away into smoke, only the devil is described as being tormented forever.

And this thing do remember, that one day with the Lord is 1000 years and 1000 years one day. 'The day' of the Lord refers to the 1000 years.
At the beginning of it the armies gathered to fight Christ are reduced to dead burning bodies, and at the end of it, this current land sky and sea are consumed by fire.

 

[ARBITER01]

Love to get reassurance like this about the fact hell isn't real, but heaven is.

Well, if your bible can't inform you to the topic because you don't like what it says, and you can't seem to ask GOD about it and wait for HIS answer, I think you should just wait this out until you die and see what happens. I think you will definitely get your answer that way.

Laters.

 

[Paulwat]

Well, if your bible can't inform you to the topic because you don't like what it says, and you can't seem to ask GOD about it and wait for HIS answer, I think you should just wait this out until you die and see what happens. I think you will definitely get your answer that way.

Laters.

I have a ton of anxiety about the idea of people going to hell, ok. It's a major OCD trigger for me and creates worryloops that make it hard for me to focus on everyday life. OCD is horrible and causes me a lot of pain. So please be considerate to my anxiety.

 

[ARBITER01]

I have a ton of anxiety about the idea of people going to hell, ok. It's a major OCD trigger for me and creates worryloops that make it hard for me to focus on everyday life. OCD is horrible and causes me a lot of pain. So please be considerate to my anxiety.

No.

Take your issue to GOD and seek healing about it until you receive it instead of trying to live with it.

 

[hedrick]

This is really a response to your previous posting on this topic.

Hell (gehenna) was a Jewish concept in the 1st Cent. Whether or not it was a physical place (there's some doubt about that interpretation), it was a place of punishment. We don't have as much data as we'd like, as details are more plentiful in later Jewish writings. But it is very likely that it was seen as a place of torment. Is 66:24 was originally about worms eating dead bodies. But by the 1st Cent it was understood as part of the torture of hell.

However, there are a couple of issues to note. First, it was common to believe that most people got out. Hell was eternal, but people didn't necessarily stay there eternally. Indeed there was an axiom that all Jews had a place in the world to come (though that leaves non-Jews open), and some set a maximum of one year in hell (maybe: this is based on later writing). Again, we simply don't know how common various views were in the 1st Cent. But it's not a mistranslation to see it as equivalent to the Christian hell in temperature; we just need a warning that some thought some or almost all got out. Ist Cent views on the afterlife were varied, just as they are now.

Second, gehenna is used almost entirely by Matthew. The other writers speak less of judgement, and use a broader set of metaphors. It is used once in Mark, in a context that includes hyperbole (9:43-47), and once in Luke hypothetically. (12:5).

 

[Hentenza]

This is really a response to your previous posting on this topic.

Hell (gehenna) was a Jewish concept in the 1st Cent. Whether or not it was a physical place (there's some doubt about that interpretation), it was a place of punishment. We don't have as much data as we'd like, as details are more plentiful in later Jewish writings. But it is very likely that it was seen as a place of torment. Is 66:24 was originally about worms eating dead bodies. But by the 1st Cent it was understood as part of the torture of hell.

However, there are a couple of issues to note. First, it was common to believe that most people got out. Hell was eternal, but people didn't necessarily stay there eternally. Indeed there was an axiom that all Jews had a place in the world to come (though that leaves non-Jews open), and some set a maximum of one year in hell (maybe: this is based on later writing). Again, we simply don't know how common various views were in the 1st Cent. But it's not a mistranslation to see it as equivalent to the Christian hell in temperature; we just need a warning that some thought some or almost all got out. Ist Cent views on the afterlife were varied, just as they are now.

Second, gehenna is used almost entirely by Matthew. The other writers speak less of judgement, and use a broader set of metaphors. It is used once in Mark, in a context that includes hyperbole (9:43-47), and once in Luke hypothetically. (12:5).

Gehenna is an actual place in the valley of Hinnom. The old Israelites used it to sacrifice children to the god Molech and then became a dump. Here is the Greek definition.

Strong’s Definitions
γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell.

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 12x
The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

 

[hedrick]

Sorry, had to do errands. Continuing.

Now, given that Gehenna isn't always eternal, what does Matthew think? The most cited passage is Mat 25:46, which refers to eternal punishment. There's been a lot of work done on the meaning of "eternal." It doesn't always mean forever in linear time. It can be a long time. It can also refer to the next age, i.e. the eschaton. In principle, this could mean punishment in the next age, but not literally eternal. But does it? Since many people at the time did believe in literal eternal punishment for at least some people, that's certainly possible.

It's probably relevant to note that this is an apparent quotation, or at least paraphrase of Dan 12:2-3 LXX: "‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise, some to life everlasting (εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον), some to reproach, and some (οἱ δέ) to dispersion and eternal shame" (quoted from Davies and Allison) That would suggest more destruction.

See also 24:51 and 25:30, which do not suggest destruction, although they don't also look like torture. They look like exclusion and regret.

It's also worth noting that this isn't the only view. The other Gospels aren't so explicit about judgement. And 1 Cor 15 sees all as being reconciled to Christ. That leaves room for some not to be resurrected, or destroyed in the judgement. But eternal punishment in the literal sense is inconsistent. Indeed other passages in Paul suggest true universalism, though the picture is complex enough that I'm not going to push that.

Traditional Christianity is not, of course, willing to say that Matthew and Paul disagree. So they use fancy footwork to avoid what Paul says. I'm not convinced. For him the whole purpose of Christ is to undo the Fall.

 

[Hentenza]

Sorry, had to do errands. Continuing.

Now, given that Gehenna isn't always eternal, what does Matthew think? The most cited passage is Mat 25:46, which refers to eternal punishment. There's been a lot of work done on the meaning of "eternal." It doesn't always mean forever in linear time. It can be a long time. It can also refer to the next age, i.e. the eschaton. In principle, this could mean punishment in the next age, but not literally eternal. But does it? Since many people at the time did believe in literal eternal punishment for at least some people, that's certainly possible.

It's probably relevant to note that this is an apparent quotation, or at least paraphrase of Dan 12:2-3 LXX: "‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise, some to life everlasting (εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον), some to reproach, and some (οἱ δέ) to dispersion and eternal shame" (quoted from Davies and Allison) That would suggest more destruction.

See also 24:51 and 25:30, which do not suggest destruction, although they don't also look like torture. They look like exclusion and regret.

It's also worth noting that this isn't the only view. The other Gospels aren't so explicit about judgement. And 1 Cor 15 sees all as being reconciled to Christ. That leaves room for some not to be resurrected, or destroyed in the judgement. But eternal punishment in the literal sense is inconsistent. Indeed other passages in Paul suggest true universalism, though the picture is complex enough that I'm not going to push that.

Traditional Christianity is not, of course, willing to say that Matthew and Paul disagree. So they use fancy footwork to avoid what Paul says. I'm not convinced. For him the whole purpose of Christ is to undo the Fall.

Paul does not teach that all will be reconciled with God. Verse mining always lead to error.

 

[hedrick]

Paul does not teach that all will be reconciled with God. Verse mining always lead to error.

It's not verse mining. It's his whole message: Christ the new Adam, as all fell with Adam all will be renewed. Sin is a supernatural force which Christ defeats. In the end all will be in Christ.

It is barely possible that in 1 Cor 15, all who survive to the end are reconciled. That is, I will accept the possbility that he envisions some not participating, either not resurrected or destroyed with the Powers in judgement. But there is no room for torture going on in the new world.

 

[RamiC]

I have a ton of anxiety about the idea of people going to hell, ok. It's a major OCD trigger for me and creates worryloops that make it hard for me to focus on everyday life. OCD is horrible and causes me a lot of pain. So please be considerate to my anxiety.

Jesus can be trusted as a judge. Human beings cannot.

 

[Hentenza]

It's not verse mining. It's his whole message: Christ the new Adam, as all fell with Adam all will be renewed. Sin is a supernatural force which Christ defeats. In the end all will be in Christ.

Adam brought sin to all but Christ never sinned so that is where the analogy ends.

It is barely possible that in 1 Cor 15, all who survive to the end are reconciled. That is, I will accept the possbility that he envisions some not participating, either not resurrected or destroyed with the Powers in judgement. But there is no room for torture going on in the new world.

Your interpretation would require that all scripture that states that salvation is by the grace of God through faith to be wrong since, in your interpretation, faith is not necessary for salvation. You see your dilemma?

“But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭6‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 10:6-11 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bri | New American Standard Bible - NA

But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bri

bible.com

 

[hedrick]

Adam brought sin to all but Christ never sinned so that is where the analogy ends.

Your interpretation would require that all scripture that states that salvation is by the grace of God through faith to be wrong since, in your interpretation, faith is not necessary for salvation. You see your dilemma?

“But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭6‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 10:6-11 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bri | New American Standard Bible - NA

But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL GO UP INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bri

bible.com

That's a strange comment. I said nothing about the basis for salvation. Clearly Paul doesn't envision anything other than faith. The central part of Romans says, roughly, the God was holding back Jews from having faith to give Gentiles a chance to come in. But after that, all israel would be saved, by which he clearly means that they would come to faith. Pretty clearly he believes that in the end everyone will be saved. But that might not be everyone in history, just everyone alive at the end. What of others? Those who died without faith. Do they have an opportunity to change? Are they destroyed? He doesn't say, and I don't know. All I can say for sure is that at the end, all will be in Christ through faith, even if that excludes some who died before. And no sign of a torture chamber alongside Christ and his people.

Just about the oddest passage in Paul is 1 Cor 15:29, which talks about baptism for the dead. He doesn't command it, but he seems to accept it. That might suggest an opportunity for those who died beforre the end.

 

[Hentenza]

That's a strange comment. I said nothing about the basis for salvation. Clearly Paul doesn't envision anything other than faith. The central part of Romans says, roughly, the God was holding back Jews from having faith to give Gentiles a chance to come in. But after that, all israel would be saved, by which he clearly means that they would come to faith. Pretty clearly he believes that in the end everyone will be saved. But that might not be everyone in history, just everyone alive at the end. What of others? Those who died without faith. Do they have an opportunity to change? Are they destroyed? He doesn't say, and I don't know. All I can say for sure is that at the end, all will be in Christ through faith, even if that excludes some who died before. And no sign of a torture chamber alongside Christ and his people.

Just about the oddest passage in Paul is 1 Cor 15:29, which talks about baptism for the dead. He doesn't command it, but he seems to accept it. That might suggest an opportunity for those who died beforre the end.

My comment was not strange but only the logical conclusion to your argument. Perhaps you didn’t realize that. If faith is necessary for salvation then those that reject faith cannot attain salvation. This is a common teaching throughout scripture.

 

[ARBITER01]

My comment was not strange but only the logical conclusion to your argument. Perhaps you didn’t realize that. If faith is necessary for salvation then those that reject faith cannot attain salvation. This is a common teaching throughout scripture.

That's absolutely correct.

"Ye must be born again."

We can't be born again without faith, and everyone has to be born again if they are going to be adopted into the family of GOD by the blood of Jesus.