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Hell and soul sleep

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by msmorality, Nov 27, 2002.

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  1. msmorality

    msmorality Wendy

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    The subject of "Hell" is usually a hot one. The late "Pastor" Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, delighted in attacking this Bible teaching in public talks, ridiculing the notion of God tormenting people in hell. "Why would a loving God do this?" he would shout. Other cult groups at this time jumped on the bandwagon and denounced hell as well. "Soul sleep" became popular, where the dead one would be unconscious or asleep until the resurrection. Unsaved ones were simply destroyed/annihilated with no eternal consequences for the wicked.
    What is the truth of the matter concerning the subject of hell? We need to let the Bible be our guide.

    THREE WORDS FOR "HELL"

    Most of the confusion surrounding the topic of hell, is because the King James version of the Bible translated three distinct Greek words by the one word "hell." The three Greek words are, "tartaros," "hades" and "gehenna." Only one of these three words refers to the place of eternal torment commonly called "hell," and the other words are often given mistaken meanings. Let’s consider these three words and their meanings.

    TARTAROS

    "Tartaros" need not concern us too much since this is a special abode for angels who are confined to this special pit of darkness. The word "tartaros" occurs only once in the New Testament, in 2 Peter 2:4.

    HADES

    "Hades," also translated "hell," occurs ten times in the New Testament, and is referred to by three writers, Matthew, Luke, and John.

    The most detailed information we can find out about Hades is in Luke, Chapter 16, where we are told about a rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus died in a righteous condition and the angels took him into Abraham’s bosom, to a place of peace and security. The rich man, on the other hand, went to "hades" or "hell," and was in great torment. He was obviously fully conscious of his surroundings, and not in a condition of "soul sleep," for the account in Luke records, "...The rich man also died and was buried, and in hell [or hades], he lifted up his eyes, being in torment... " [Luke 16:22, 23].

    He pleaded for a drop of water to cool his tongue because of the torment of the flame. He could see the happy condition of Lazarus, but he could not leave his place of torment. He spoke about his worry over the condition of his five brothers who had yet to die. He wished to spare them his present agony. Yet this pitiful rich man had all his faculties, and was indeed experiencing ongoing torment.

    COULD LUKE 16 BE "ONLY A PARABLE"?

    Groups like the Jehovah’s Witnesses and others denying the reality of hellfire do indeed claim that the above account is only a parable, or is "figurative" or "spiritual." However this account is not a parable, since proper names of recognizable Bible characters are used, whereas Jesus never used proper names in his parables, and generally indicated when he was teaching a parable.

    Even stretching the point, and allowing that it could be a parable, it teaches an important truth, and Jesus taught truth, not falsehoods.

    HADES IS NOT THE FINAL DESTINATION

    "Hades" in Greek, finds its parallel in the Hebrew word "Sheol." "Hades" and "Sheol" [both translated "hell"] are often called the "holding tanks" by some Bible scholars, since souls in this "hell" are not in their final destination. According to Revelation 20, those in Hades will yet stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. Hades will be terminated at this time. Those with condemnatory judgment will be cast into "gehenna" [hell], the Lake that burns with "Fire and Brimstone."

    "Hades" or "Sheol" does not mean only the grave as the cult groups teach. That is one meaning for these words, but other original words are used to mean the literal grave with its headstones or pit-marker. "Hades" or "Sheol" refers to the condition of the dead, as we considered in Luke 16. "Hades" will finally be done away with in God’s time, but "gehenna" will remain.

    WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT GEHENNA?

    One has only to read the words of Jesus in Mark 9:42-44ff. to know the seriousness of a final destination of "gehenna": "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in Me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [or gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

    This same warning is issued regarding a foot or an eye that would hinder us, that "the fire would not be quenched," and "the worm would not die." Christ stresses that it would be better to lose the most precious things in this life and to avoid hell, than it would be to retain all that this life holds dear, and be cast into this dreadful place.

    Cult groups like to think the fire would annihilate them or consume them, but God is capable of altering the properties of fire. Consider the burning bush of Moses’ day that was not consumed, and also the "fiery furnace" of Daniel’s day.

    WHAT ABOUT SOUL SLEEP?

    A condition of "soul sleep" is obviously not taught by Christ. The inhabitants of hell are not unconscious or annihilated. When we really believe the word of God as it is written, and don’t try to "figuratize" or "spiritualize" it away as the cults do, it becomes evident that Hell is a very real place of destination, and it’s inhabitants are conscious. The Bible makes this very clear.

    Let’s compare Revelation 19:20, with 20:10. Before the 1,000 year reign of Christ, the beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire. Were they annihilated as the cults teach? No, for 1,000 years later, they are still alive, and the Devil joins them in their condition of torment. Scripture says they; "...shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever" [Revelation 20:10].

    LET’S BELIEVE JESUS

    Let’s just believe the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 25:46, that there are two destinations, one for believers, and one for unbelievers: "And these shall go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

    The same exact word in the Greek describes both conditions. Both are "everlasting," "eternal" and "ongoing." We may choose eternal life, or eternal punishment and torment. Denying the reality of Hell won’t prevent us from going there, if we wait for our death to find out for sure!

    WHY NOT CHOOSE ETERNAL LIFE?

    Jesus offers to each one of us a precious gift. It is the gift of eternal life. We receive this gift when we receive Jesus Christ into our hearts. He needs an invitation to come in, issued by us in an attitude of heartfelt repentance for our lives up to this point, which have been devoid of Him. Why not stop right now and pray, inviting Jesus Christ into your life? John 1:12,13 will hold new meaning for you: "But as many as received Him, to them He GAVE the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    Please notice that Jesus does not limit salvation to a chosen few, like 144,000. Jesus opens the door wide so that "whosoever will may come." The apostle John says "as many as received Him" have the right to be sons of God.
     
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  2. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    Scripturally speaking, hell is the grave. Hell is an English word derived from the Anglo-Saxon word “helan”, which means “to cover” or “to hide out of sight”.

    The Old Testament was originally written in the Hebrew language; the New Testament was originally written in the Greek language. In order for the Bible to be read in English, therefore, it was necessary for Bible scholars to translate the Bible from the Hebrew and Greek languages into English.

    The English word ‘hell’ was used by these translators to translate Hebrew and Greek words that were originally used by Bible writers to refer to the grave.

    The Hebrew word for grave is ‘sheol’. The Greek word for grave is ‘hades’. Old Testament writers, like Moses, Job, David, Solomon, and Isaiah, recorded the fact that dead men are buried in ‘sheol’. New Testament writers, like Matthew, Luke, Paul, and John, taught that the dead are buried in ‘hades’.

    Looking at Acts2:27-31 and Psalm 16:10, you can see that ‘sheol’ and ‘hades’ have the same meaning – the grave. Acts 2:27 is a direct quote of Psalm 16:10. In Psalms the word ‘hell’ is translated from the Hebrew word ‘sheol’, and in Acts the word ‘hell’ is translated from the Greek wore ‘hades’. This helps to prove that the two words mean the same thing.

    What of the daughter of Jairus? She was dead, but Jesus tells her family that she is asleep.

    Matthew 9:23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
    24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
    25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
    26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

    Mark 5:38 And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
    39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
    40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.
    41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
    42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was [of the age] of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
    43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.

    Luke 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
    52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
    53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
    54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
    55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
    56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

    And what of Lazarus. Look at how Jesus describes his condition.

    John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
    15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

    Jesus plainly tells us that death is like a sleep. The only difference from our normal, daily sleep, is that in this sleep our brains are not functioning. There are no dreams, no thoughts, no memories.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    Psalms 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    Yes, they are both everlasting, but it is the punishment that is everlasting, not the punishing. The judgement is everlasting.

    The gift of God is eternal life, correct? What is the opposite of life? Is it not the lack of life, or death? That being the case, then the opposite of eternal life is eternal death. And as we saw in Ecclesiastes, the dead don't know anything. Besides, those who are sentenced to eternal punishment, will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

    Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

    If those not given eternal life are "suffering" in the Lake of Fire, then how can they be ashes under our feet? If they are "suffering" in the Lake of Fire, then they must also have eternal life in order to "suffer" eternally.

    As you point out, only those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God, will be given eternal life. That being the case, then those who don't believe, don't have eternal life.
     
  3. msmorality

    msmorality Wendy

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    Sleep is a metaphor for death. Scripture points to life in the spirit after the physical body dies. This is taught by cults, such as JW and SDA who borrowed from each other since they have the same roots.

    Ecc 12:7 "The Dust (your body) retruns to the groud as it was and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

    Rom 8:10 " Yet, even though Christ lives within you, your body will die because of sin: but your spirit will live, for Christ has pardoned it".



    I can also mention Jesus words on the cross and his words to the theif. Stephen last words when he died were the same. But I have been on that Merry Go round of comma's , ect.

    God Bless, thanks for the reply.
     
  4. msmorality

    msmorality Wendy

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  5. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

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    It's good to have a civil discussion.

    If death wasn't like sleep, why would sleep be used as a metaphor?

    In the Old Testament, "spirit" is translated from two Hebrew words, neshamah and ruach. Neshamah is defined as "breath", and is called "breath" in eleven texts. It is called "soul" once (Isaiah 57:16), and "spirit" twice (Job 26:4; Proverbs 20:27). It is called "blast" three times (2 Samuel 22:16; Job 4:9; Psalm 18:15), and "inspiration" once (Job 32:8). In general use, "breath" and "spirit" are synonymous in meaning. The word ruach is defined as "wind". It is called "breath" 28 times, and "spirit" 232 times. Other renderings are: air, anger, blast, cool courage, mind, quarters, side, tempest, wind, vain, windy and whirlwind.

    Ruach is the word translated "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "The dust shall return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it." Quite often, men use "spirit" of this text interchangeably with "soul" and claim that it never dies. (We must search outside the Bible to find such statements, for the terms "immortal soul" and "immortal spirit" are not used in the Bible. The Bible teaches the opposite, that man is mortal and his only opportunity for immortality is to come to Christ. Outside of Christ there is no eternal life. Eternal life is never once promised to the wicked.) "Spirit" is the ruach or air that man quits breathing at death, and which goes back to God who gave it. "Soul" is from nephesh, meaning "life". "Spirit" and "life" are not used interchangeably, although one cannot exist without the other; life cannot continue without air. When the breath is taken away, life ceases, we no longer breathe.

    The word "spirit" is used in many ways, and with various meanings. Spirit was God's power at creation, when He separated darkness from light (Genesis 1:2,3). "There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding" (Job 32:8). "Spirit" in this text is the power or ability to understand; and "inspiration" is from neshamah, meaning "breath". "My breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3). "Spirit" in these three texts is from ruach, meaning "wind", thus making "breath" and "spirit" one and the same as used here; and "inspiration" taken from the Hebrew neshamah, also means "breath", which is wind.

    "Abraham gave up the ghost, and died" (Genesis 25:8). "Isaac gave up the ghost and died" Genesis 35:29). "Ghost" is often used by man as interchangeable with "soul" and "spirit". "Ghost" is from the nephesh in Job 11:20 and Jeremiah 15:9. It is defined as "animal breath". The ghost that Abraham and Isaac gave up, and seven other texts stating that people "gave up the ghost", is from the Hebrew gava, which means to "gasp out, expire".

    In turning to the New Testament, we find that Jesus cried out, and "gave up the ghost" (Mark 15:37). He commended His spirit into His Father's hands, and "gave up the ghost" (Luke 12:23). "Ghost" in the foregoing texts is from the Greek word ekpeno, which is defined the same as the Hebrew word gava. "Spirit" in Luke 23:46 is from the Greek word pneuma, which is translated as "wind" or "breath" in other texts. Jesus died like Abraham, Isaac, Herod, and all other men die; He ceased to breathe, and expired.
     
  6. msmorality

    msmorality Wendy

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    The Bible uses this term when speaking of death in that the physical body, a dead body, looks very similar in this state. It's always referring to the physical body, not the soul. It is the appearance of the body that is sleeping, no one is able to see the spirit . It is also a term used exclusively for believers. The term sleeping, in reference to death, is not used for unbelievers. I find that to be crucial in understanding what the Bible is trying to portray to us when it says that the dead in Christ are sleeping.

    Job 32:8: “But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.” The breath is not the same as mans spirit but that which teaches him, being the Holy Spirit from God.

    Isaiah 26:9 says this: “ At night my soul longs for Thee, indeed my spirit within me seeks Thee diligently.”

    Zech.12:1: “Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:” Here we see that the physical man is different than the Spirit in him.

    1 Cor. 6:20: “For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.” Paul distinguishes the body from the Spirit, both existing simultaneously, yet both are united to make man.

    1 Cor. 2:11: “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Mans spirit is not the same as Gods Spirit. Our spirit has certain capabilities to understand the things of man but fall short in understanding God unless he reveals them to us. The knowledge is not in our flesh but our spirit, certainly this cannot mean our breath for it knows nothing. There is a comparison here between mans spirit knowing the things of man and Gods spirit knowing the things of God.

    Job.14:22: “But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.” Job makes the distinction saying the flesh is upon him and the soul is within him.

    Now lets address the argument that some claim the soul or spirit is just another word for breath since this is what the Hebrew word Ruach means. That when someone dies their breath leaves them. Lets substitute the word breath where Spirit is and see if it makes any sense scripturally?

    Job 34:14-15: “If He should set His heart on it, if He should gather to Himself Spirit (His breath?) and His breath, All flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.” Here both breath and spirit are distinguished otherwise one would be gathering to himself spirit and his spirit or breath and his breath.

    Ps. 19:7: “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the Breath, the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;” The conversion is to ones soul, their inner being so it can rule over their body.

    2 Cor. 7:1: “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and Breath (spirit),” Does this mean we take breath mints?

    Gal 6:8: “For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the breath ( Spirit ) will of the breath (Spirit) reap everlasting life.”

    Acts 23:8: “For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-- and no angel or breath (spirit); but the Pharisees confess both.” Is there no breath or were they speaking about a spirit that is intelligent (a type of angel). What we will see is that Spirits do exist outside the vehicle of the body as does mans. V.9”Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, “We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God.” Certainly they are speaking about a corporeal entity that communicates not just breath.

    What of Jesus, did he use this definition? Matt. 12:43 “When an unclean Breath, (spirit) “goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.” Certainly he did not mean bad breath. Just as man can have the Holy Spirit live within him alongside his human Spirit so he can have a unclean spirit live in him.

    Luke 4:36: “What a word this is! For with authority and power He commands the unclean Breaths, (spirit) and they come out.”

    Acts 5:16: “Bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean Breath,” (spirit), and they were all healed.” I guess some peoples souls need breath freshener! Jesus cast out spirit entities not peoples breath, and if he did they would certainly die on the spot.

    Luke 12:19: “And I will say to my Breath, “ Breath,”(spirit), you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.” Can ones breath eat and drink.

    James 5:20 “ let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a Breath, (soul) from death and cover a multitude of sins.” Can breath be saved or a person.

    2 Pet. 2:8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous Breath, (spirit) from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--

    Ezek. 18:4: “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Can breathe die? Obviously this means something than just air in the lungs.

    1 Sam 30:6 “ because the soul of all the people was grieved.” Num. 21:4 “ and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way.” Prov. 21:10 “The soul of the wicked desires evil” Can breath do any of these things, or does it communicate emotion, intelligence and personality? Gen. 34:8 But Hamor spoke with them, saying, “The soul of my son Shechem longs for your daughter. Please give her to him as a wife.” Is Shechem's breath desiring a wife?

    Pnuema means wind in Greek it also means breath and spirit. Ruach in Hebrew means wind, it too also can mean breath and spirit. Since Hebrew and Greek have only one word for wind breath and spirit one needs to discern what is meant by certain passages, the context defines the meaning. Jesus breathed on his disciples in John 20 saying receive the Spirit, the rushing wind in Acts is certainly to be interpreted as the Spirit. When Jesus breathed on the apostles the Holy Spirit in Jn.20:22 he wasn't giving them Breath for life but the Holy Spirit in some capacity.

    If Spirit is breath and God is Spirit is He breath to? We can see how ludicrous this position of interpretation is. Certainly when Jesus spoke to the Father into your hands I commend my Spirit he was not speaking of his breath.

    I think the point is clear Spirit does not mean breath although at times it is used metaphorically.

    There is a difference between man's breath and spirit

    Isaiah 42:5: “Thus says the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and its offspring, who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk in it.” Two things are given the breath and the spirit if they were one thing it would not be written like this.

    1 Cor. 2:11-12: “ For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? “ Could we ever substitute breath for Spirit? Mans center of knowledge is not in their physical human nature, neither in the brain which is just a vehicle. It is our spirit that has a will and recalls. When one dies it is because the spirit leaves this is why one cannot hear nor see our spiritual nature has left.” Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.” Could we substitute breath and have the scripture read “No one knows the things of God but the breath of God?” “Now we have received, not the breath of the world, but the breath who is from God! Does God need breath to live? The Bible tells us God is Spirit (breath?) and that he has all knowledge, perfect knowledge of the past present and future.

    James. 2:26: “the body without the Spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Meaning only the body dies, as James uses the example that faith animates our works so the Spirit animates the body. The relationship between the material and immaterial when broken means we die physically. The spirit is not dead like the body. The resurrection only applies to the body. When our spirit returns, our bodies come alive again. The correlation made is that real faith (which is invisible) is displayed to others by having works to show it is alive .

    Abraham died and was gathered to his people. Gen.25:8 Jacob said the same thing Gen.49:29 Rachel dying said her soul was departing and she died in Gen.35:18.

    The description of what occurs at death is described in both the Old Testament and the New Testament as giving up the ghost, Abraham Gen.25:8. Isaac gave up the ghost Gen.35:29.

    Jacob breathed his last Gen.49:33. Even Jesus Lk.23:46, and Sapphira in Acts 5:10. This is a common phrase to signify one is dying not that their soul goes to sleep.

    In I Kings 17:20-22: “When the widows son died Elijah cried out three times to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. Notice that it came in him. This is not just breath as one can make air go back into someone who just died and they would not revive, this says the soul of the child, it is something he possessed that had left him.

    Luke 8:54-55: “he, however, took her by the hand and called, saying, 'Child arise!' And her spirit returned , and she rose immediately; and He gave orders for something to be given her to eat.” This shows without the spirit to animate the body we are dead. This does not mean the spirit is dead or sleeping. In all these instances we find the spirit entering again but never reviving or resurrecting because it already is alive.
    God Bless.
     
  7. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    This is interesting.

    All you have proved here, is that man cannot survive without the breath of life.

    But nowhere do your proof texts say that this breath of life is the individual to whom it belongs. :cool:
     
  8. msmorality

    msmorality Wendy

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    The point is.... the spirit is the non- material part of man not a "breath". The passages given would not make any sense. But closed minds will stay closed. I grew up with a father who taught me we went to sleep when we died. Then I grew up and read the Bible. The Bible teaches we go home to be with God, those who are born again believers. Believe as you wish, as long as you trust Christ and are born again, this is not that imporatant of an issue.

    God Bless you
     
  9. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    msmorality -

    *snip*

    Oh, really?

    But that's exactly how the Bible describes it. :cool:
     
  10. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Hello Evangelion and God bless-

    • *What* are angels? See Heb1:7 etc..
    • Can angels die?
    • How do angels "live"/'have their being'? Is it different than man?
    • What would happen if YHWH retrieved His 'breath of life' from the angels?

    >

    After this setup, I'll proceed into something really good. :cool:

    >
    ___________
    God bless--FM
     
  11. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    AV, you won't get anywhere with false equivocations and category errors.

    *snip*

    The angels don't have "the breath of life." They have a nature that is innately immortal. They don't even need to breath at all. :cool:
     
  12. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

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    Aye, but they are not false equivocations because they rely on the same basic premise of the creation/source of life i.e. 'the breath of God'/'ruach of God'.

    ...or are you saying that angels are 'immortal'? Of what do they consist?

    So therefore....yes, I can. :wave:

    I'm pretty sure that YHWH doesn't have His lips attached to everyone's nose. Point being, do you think this is literally referring to a "breath of air"? :(

    God bless--FM
     
  13. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

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    AV -

    Yes, they are. Quod erat demonstradum.

    No, they don't. You are arguing for something else entirely.

    Hellooooo! Earth calling AV!

    Remember this?

    • The angels don't have "the breath of life." They have a nature that is innately immortal. They don't even need to breath at all.
    Sheesh. :rolleyes:

    Divine nature.

    Well spotted. ;)

    No, it is referring to the power of God, which gives life to all that He has made.

    Having received this life, the body must continue to sustain it. But God is at liberty to cease that life by withdrawing it at His discretion. When living creatures die, their breath of life departs, and death follows. (Genesis 25:18.)

    Our life, therefore, is sustained in a different way to that of Jesus and the angelic host. :cool:
     
  14. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    God is the source of life. That applys to all created beings. Did you want to argue that?

    Oops! :D That was supposed to be 'eternal'. Hence my inquiry as to whether they needed 'God' to live [this being the case as they are *created*].

    Or in other words, 'spirit'. Basically what I was getting at.

    You were beginning to sound rather overly literal with the 'breath' thing.

    The 'power of God' in the context we speak is clearly demonstrated within the scriptures to be the 'Spirit of God'.

    And if you will remember from my discussion with Fortigurn, this 'Spirit' *returns* to YHWH who gave it. Hence the oft uttered "recieve my spirit".

    And what do you mean by "must continue to sustain it"? Do you mean that God sustains life? This is certainly what I took Fort to imply when he asked "What would happen to all life if God were to withdraw His spirit from mankind". [Or at least that is the best I can paraphrase it at this moment].

    Now that you've defined this, what is the *difference* in this area between the angels and man? This:

    ..is hardly supported by your post. One could easily label it a false dichotomy.

    God bless--FM
     
  15. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    AV -

    *snip*

    That's exactly what I've been telling you all this time! :rolleyes:

    *snip*

    In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about, and you have no idea what I'm talking about, even when I make myself abundantly clear.

    Thankyou for clarifying that point.

    *snip*

    "Divine, spirit nature", yes you can call it that.

    I know. I've already agreed with this, rememer?

    I know. We both agreed on this, remember?

    I mean that if we do not look after our bodies, they will die. If you do not believe that this is true, I suggest that you try going without food and water for a couple of months.

    Let me know how you get on. ;)

    Well, yes, God does indeed sustain life. But life is also self-sustaining (to a degree.) Like I said, if you want to try the old "going-without-food-and-water-for-a-couple-of-months" experiment, you might begin to see what's actually going on here.

    In a word? Nature.

    It is fully supported by my post, and if you'd actually read what I'd written, you'd see why.

    No, that only goes to prove that you still don't understand what a false dichotomy is.

    Tell me, AV - do you know the difference between an immortal being and a mortal being?

    Well then. There's your answer. :cool:
     
  16. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    That's all I need :). Except:

    Yes, it is a false dichotomy as the *means of life* are the same.

    That immortality is a granted state of being from God. It is "composition" of the 'spirit' (for lack of a better word) that I am speaking, or at least means through which they commonly live. The same spirit that animates and gives us life is the same that wrought the creation [life] of the angels. Or are there *two* different 'spirits' with which we are made and kept alive?

    As for the "flesh", that is an effect of sin. See:

    Gen 6:3 And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

    God bless--FM
     
  17. Evangelion

    Evangelion <b><font size="2">δυνατός</b></font>

    +0
    See? Now you fall back into the category error - without even proving the alleged "false dichotomy", or engaging with my argument! :cool:
     
  18. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    You get more like your brother everyday :( . If you aren't going to pay attention then just admit that you don't want to address the point. We don't disagree *that* much for crying out loud! :sleep:
     
  19. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian


    So why would the term - sleeping, in reference to death, not be used for unbelievers? Is there something physically different about them?

    As you point out, "the context defines the meaning". Your exchanging of the word "spirit" with "breath" was out of context.

    Where does it say we have an immortal spirit (or soul) in scripture? It doesn't.
    The word "soul" is used in Scripture to denote the vital principal in animal bodies, and also the living creatures themselves, particularly, man. Psalms 40:14; Isaiah 53:10-12; 1 Samuel 18:1-3. It is practically synonymous with the word "life" (Matthew 16:26). Although occurring hundreds of times in the Old and New Testaments, in no case is it ever associated with the words "immortal", "immortality", "eternal", "undying", "incorruptible", and like terms implying life without end.

    On the contrary, its nature is characteristically temporal. It dies (Ezek. 18:4-20; Psalms 22:29; 33:19; 56:13; 78:50; 116:8; James 5:20; Revelation 16:3), can be killed or cut off (Exodus 12:15-19; 31:14; Lev. 7:25-27; 19:8; 22:3; Numbers 9:13; 15:30-31; 19:13-20), it goes to the grave (Job 33:18-22; Psalms 49:8-15) and can be utterly destroyed (Lev. 23:30; Josh. 10:28-39; 11:11).

    In the face of all these facts, many people, unacquainted with the Bible usage of the word, think that the soul is immortal, that it cannot die, that it goes to heave, or lives forever in hell. To support this idea Genesis 35:18; 1 Kings 17:21 and Job 14:22 are sometimes quoted. But these verses do not even suggest such a thought. Here is an example of assuming that the word "soul" means an immortal soul. It simply refers here, as usual, to the life. We should probably say, instead (Gen. 35:18), "as her life was ebbing out", or (1 Kings 17:21), "Let this child's life return."
     
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