Hebrews 8 shows us that Christ gave the TEN Commandments - Christ's Commandments

[BobRyan]

Simply because at the time they wrote their confessions, they were not aware of the gravity of the New Covenant.

Or they knew that it is in Jer 31:31-34 and unchanged verbatim in Heb 8:6-12 just like everybody else - AND -- they read it.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob, definitely.
Both confessions state we are not under law but under grace.

So does Romans 6 - and YET all affirm all TEN including Eph 6:2 and those confessions of faith.

This is the easy part.

 

[BobRyan]

How can the Presbyterians, and the Reformed Baptists understand the New Covenant if they do not even include the term "New Covenant" in their confessions?

It is the only covenant with the Law written on the heart - and they could read the Bible.

When BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to that same Bible detail it is a "sign" that it is indeed "the EASY part" of this highly debated topic.

 

[BABerean2]

It is the only covenant with the Law written on the heart - and they could read the Bible.

When BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to that same Bible detail it is a "sign" that it is indeed "the EASY part" of this highly debated topic.

You keep repeating yourself and repeating what is written in man-made confessions that could not even find the term "New Covenant" in the Bible.

We understand why you keep quoting sources that cannot find the New Covenant and could not let go of the Old Covenant.
You have exactly the same problem.

.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
It is the only covenant with the Law written on the heart - and they could read the Bible.

When BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to that same Bible detail it is a "sign" that it is indeed "the EASY part" of this highly debated topic.

You keep repeating yourself

I am just stating the obvious. It would be nice if we could move past the easy part.

As already "noticed" we see in the "law written on the heart" Jer 34:31-34 in the one and only Gospel covenant called "the New Covenant" and we also see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

I think your suggestion was that those denominations don't know what the New Covenant is... I am wondering if anyone else here takes that suggestion seriously.

 

[BABerean2]

I am just stating the obvious. It would be nice if we could move past the easy part.

As already "noticed" we see in the "law written on the heart" Jer 34:31-34 in the one and only Gospel covenant called "the New Covenant" and we also see it in Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

I think your suggestion was that those denominations don't know what the New Covenant is... I am wondering if anyone else here takes that suggestion seriously.

Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God



I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.


(emphasis by bold text is mine)


from www.reformed.org/documents

……………………………….................................................................................

The term "the moral law" is not found in the Bible.

It was invented by those who could not let go of the Old Covenant made "obsolete" by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13.

.

 

[klutedavid]

Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God



I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.


(emphasis by bold text is mine)


from www.reformed.org/documents

……………………………….................................................................................

The term "the moral law" is not found in the Bible.

It was invented by those who could not let go of the Old Covenant made "obsolete" by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13.

.

The Confession does say the following which Bob ignores.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;

 

[klutedavid]

So does Romans 6 - and YET all affirm all TEN including Eph 6:2 and those confessions of faith.

This is the easy part.

What you stated here, 'TEN including Eph 6:2', is just not true.
Ephesians 2:6 does not confirm the ten commandments are in force. Ephesians 6:1-2 does not say that Gentiles are under the law.

Here is what your quotation really says.

Ephesians 6:1-2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise)

You see that it is right for children to obey their parents and so does everyone else.

That verse does not say that the ten commandments are in force.

You are simply make an inference.

Just show where in the New Testament does it say the Gentiles are under the law. That is all you have to do, Bob. We cannot develop doctrine on the basis of inference. The text must state either Gentiles are under the law, or that Gentiles must obey the ten commandments.

It does not get any simpler.

You amaze me, when you constantly infer so much without any clear statement. From the scripture that what your saying is true. Always inferred.

 

[klutedavid]

It is the only covenant with the Law written on the heart - and they could read the Bible.

When BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to that same Bible detail it is a "sign" that it is indeed "the EASY part" of this highly debated topic.

Untrue Bob, both confessions admit that Gentiles are not under the law.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;

You cannot claim the two confessions are saying that Gentiles are under the law.

 

[BobRyan]

The term "the moral law" is not found in the Bible. It was invented by those who could not let go of the Old Covenant

The term means "That which defines what sin is"

The Bible says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 therefore your statement is in error.
The Bible says "through the LAW comes the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:19-20 therefore your statement is in error.

The NEW Covenant is in Jer 31:31-34 and is merely quoted "verbatim" in Heb 8. unchanged

 

[BobRyan]

Untrue Bob, both confessions admit that Gentiles are not under the law. .

Both confessions state that all mankind both saved and unsaved are under the TEN commandments as the moral law of God.

This is irrefutable.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

The term "under the Law" in Rom 3:19-20 defines itself as "under law apart from Grace" and in no way conflicts with point V in section 19 of those confessions of faith.

The point remains.

But I love it that you keep asking that we point this easy detail out.

 

[BABerean2]

The term means "That which defines what sin is"

The Bible says "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 therefore your statement is in error.
The Bible says "through the LAW comes the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:19-20 therefore your statement is in error.

The NEW Covenant is in Jer 31:31-34 and is merely quoted "verbatim" in Heb 8. unchanged

If you are defining the term "The moral Law", which is not in the Bible but comes from man-made confessions, the definition is your invention.

Once again you are ignoring the last verse in Hebrews 8:6-13.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


You are also ignoring the verse below.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


.

 

[klutedavid]

Both confessions state that all mankind both saved and unsaved are under the TEN commandments as the moral law of God.

This is irrefutable.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

The term "under the Law" in Rom 3:19-20 defines itself as "under law apart from Grace" and in no way conflicts with point V in section 19 of those confessions of faith.

The point remains.

But I love it that you keep asking that we point this easy detail out.

Bob, the two confessions, state clearly, that we are not under the law. The ten commandments are the law. We are not under the ten commandments. You misunderstand what the confessions are saying.

By the way, you can call a law, 'a moral law', if you want but we are still not under the law anyway.

Not being under the law which the two confessions state. Means that we are not judged according to the law. That is the key point your missing.

The law of sin and death was abolished by Jesus Christ. There no longer exists a death penalty for telling a lie or a death penalty for disobedience to your parents. Or a death penalty for transgressing any other commandment in the law.

I cannot understand that, you would insist that telling a lie is transgression and ultimately death?

Your point is devoid of Christ's atonement for your transgression of the ten commandments.

 

[klutedavid]

If you are defining the term "The moral Law", which is not in the Bible but comes from man-made confessions, the definition is your invention.

Once again you are ignoring the last verse in Hebrews 8:6-13.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


You are also ignoring the verse below.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


.

I do not think they understand the New Covenant and it's ramifications. The New Covenant was not understood during their church history. Their theology omits covenant theology altogether.

Old Testament and New Testament.

Testamentum is a Latin word for covenant.

The earliest Christians saw a big slab of the history of God’s people as divided up between the Old Covenant (that God made with Moses) and the New Covenant (Introduced by Jesus Christ). So they divided the Bible into two sections but they are oblivious to that distinction in the covenants.

They don't have an Old Testament (old covenant) and a New testament (new testament) in their Bibles.

 

[fixn_junk]

Are you going to fix your profile page so others can see it?
Or are you going to leave it hidden for some reason?

.

I can't help but wonder the motivation for this windy rampage. Are we trying to win a war at the expense of Scripture used for a personal win? This statement within my quote is not a statement of one man debating another man. It's a jab at the end of a statement to win the battle.

John 13:35
[35]By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

I am new to this site and I am more discouraged all the time. I came looking for some good Christian comerodery where a person could have a fruitful discussion on scripture to grow together. What I have found is petty arguments on opinions and flat out butchering of the Word of God.

 

[BABerean2]

I can't help but wonder the motivation for this windy rampage. Are we trying to win a war at the expense of Scripture used for a personal win? This statement within my quote is not a statement of one man debating another man. It's a jab at the end of a statement to win the battle.

John 13:35
[35]By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

I am new to this site and I am more discouraged all the time. I came looking for some good Christian comerodery where a person could have a fruitful discussion on scripture to grow together. What I have found is petty arguments on opinions and flat out butchering of the Word of God.

If you would take the time to read the whole debate, you might be able to come to a better conclusion.

If a member of this forum is an Adventist pastor, the rest of us need to know that fact.
That was the reason for my comment. I had wondered if this defender of Seventh Day Adventism was actually a paid member of that group.

Welcome to the forum.

.

 

[BobRyan]

The "actual words"

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral,...

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

Bob, the two confessions, state clearly, that we are not under the law. The ten commandments are the law. We are not under the ten commandments.

ok well... we read "the words"

You are responding as if you do not know the difference between "under the Law apart from faith" in Rom 3:19-20 and "The TEN commandments as the moral law of God that is binding on all - both justified persons and others"..

Is that still the case? are you still unsure about the difference?

 

[klutedavid]

The "actual words"

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral,...

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.



ok well... we read "the words"

You are responding as if you do not know the difference between "under the Law apart from faith" in Rom 3:19-20 and "The TEN commandments as the moral law of God that is binding on all - both justified persons and others"..

Is that still the case? are you still unsure about the difference?

Bob, you should know by now, that I don't follow any tradition. I am neither Catholic or Protestant, Baptist or SDA.

I do not accept any church creeds, interpretations or theologies.

I even prefer the Septuagint, Old Testament.

I look at the confessions of different churches and I am amazed that, that sometimes they miss some obvious points. Sometimes they are wrong in their understanding.

Not even Jesus could accuse me of following a tradition, or the words of men.

You follow traditions and that is obvious. Your interpretation is the traditional interpretation. You are under the law, but you single one commandment out of the ten commandments. For such a special consideration that your church is named after it.

That is the truth Bob, you follow tradition.

 

[klutedavid]

I can't help but wonder the motivation for this windy rampage. Are we trying to win a war at the expense of Scripture used for a personal win? This statement within my quote is not a statement of one man debating another man. It's a jab at the end of a statement to win the battle.

John 13:35
[35]By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

I am new to this site and I am more discouraged all the time. I came looking for some good Christian comerodery where a person could have a fruitful discussion on scripture to grow together. What I have found is petty arguments on opinions and flat out butchering of the Word of God.

This thread is a contentious thread. There are many other topics where the discussions can be fruitful.

 

[Bob S]

Bob, you should know by now, that I don't follow any tradition. I am neither Catholic or Protestant, Baptist or SDA.

I do not accept any church creeds, interpretations or theologies.

I even prefer the Septuagint, Old Testament.

I look at the confessions of different churches and I am amazed that, that sometimes they miss some obvious points. Sometimes they are wrong in their understanding.

Not even Jesus could accuse me of following a tradition, or the words of men.

You follow traditions and that is obvious. Your interpretation is the traditional interpretation. You are under the law, but you single one commandment out of the ten commandments. For such a special consideration that your church is named after it.

That is the truth Bob, you follow tradition.

Now, now KD, shouldn't you know by now that the fourth commandment is God's "special" command because the dear sister SAW a halo around it. What the sister saw, says sister's sheep, became canon. SDAs follow what sister saw.