Hebrews 6:4-6

[OzSpen]

It's not about you.

To whom, then, were you referring in this thread who is a false teacher who should be ignored and rebuked?

Please enlighten us.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You are the one who said you were quitting the conversation because of our disagreements. We're you lying?

As to the text, it's a Jew trying to preach a better Prophet, Priest, and King. So the use of inclusive pronouns is natural language.

Do you mean, 'Were you lying?' instead of your statement, 'We're you lying'?

No, I was not lying, but I changed my mind when you misrepresented my views and I considered I needed to respond.

When will you admit that you got it wrong and misrepresented my views?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Since you've been saved, have you ever looked at a woman with lust? Lied? Been angry at a brother? Not done things to glorify God?

Again, you misrepresent what the verse states and what I wrote about it. Why do you continue to do this?

Oz

 

[Hammster]

Again you refuse to accept what I wrote and try to make it say something other than what I stated.

Oz

You said you don't deliberately sin. I'm questioning that claim. And you are sidestepping.

 

[Hammster]

To whom, then, were you referring in this thread who is a false teacher who should be ignored and rebuked?

Please enlighten us.

Oz

You are getting off track. The post was to another member. But you'd do well to heed it yourself.

 

[Hammster]

Do you mean, 'Were you lying?' instead of your statement, 'We're you lying'?

No, I was not lying, but I changed my mind when you misrepresented my views and I considered I needed to respond.

When will you admit that you got it wrong and misrepresented my views?

Oz

I didn't misrepresent your views. You said that you don't sin deliberately. I say you are mistaken.

 

[98cwitr]

I deliberately sin, even though I've been baptized [in water] as an adult. I am quite sure I have not been baptized by the Spirit, for if I had I would not do the things that I do, think the way I think, or feel the way I feel.

I can admit that. I can also admit that I am not proud of it. A real stumbling block for me is knowing that others have done the same, claim to be Christian, yet wont admit it.

Lord forgive me.

 

[OzSpen]

You said you don't deliberately sin. I'm questioning that claim. And you are sidestepping.

I've told you my answer previously and I haven't changed my mind.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

I've told you my answer previously and I haven't changed my mind.

Oz

I know. It just happens to be a sin that you aren't committing. Very convenient theology.

 

[harvester77]

is it a sin to continue a homosexual lifestyle if that is what you are?

 

[Hammster]

is it a sin to continue a homosexual lifestyle if that is what you are?

Yes. We are all sinners by nature. It's wrong to sin just because it's a nature.

 

[OzSpen]

is it a sin to continue a homosexual lifestyle if that is what you are?

You seem to be presuming a view with with the Scriptures disagree. The Bible doesn't teach 'a homosexual lifestyle' which 'you are'. It teaches about homosexual sin in the same context of heterosexual sin from which a person can be redeemed as the context states, 'Such were some of you'.

You have provided a secular understanding of homosexuality in your presupposition that is consistent with what I hear in the secular world and sometimes among Christians. But it is inconsistent with what I read in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-11.

Oz

 

[98cwitr]

You seem to be presuming a view with with the Scriptures disagree. The Bible doesn't teach 'a homosexual lifestyle' which 'you are'. It teaches about homosexual sin in the same context of heterosexual sin from which a person can be redeemed as the context states, 'Such were some of you'.

You have provided a secular understanding of homosexuality in your presupposition that is consistent with what I hear in the secular world and sometimes among Christians. But it is inconsistent with what I read in Romans 1:26-27 and I Corinthians 6:9-11.

Oz

I agree. Sexual sin can both be homo or heterosexual in nature, unfortunately it seems that homosexual desires have no avenue to be fulfilled without sin in the sight of God as do heterosexual sexuality. I'm sure that homosexuals see this as unfair and unjust, as those desires [on both sides] are not based on choice, but a predisposition.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree. Sexual sin can both be homo or heterosexual in nature, unfortunately it seems that homosexual desires have no avenue to be fulfilled without sin in the sight of God as do heterosexual sexuality. I'm sure that homosexuals see this as unfair and unjust, as those desires [on both sides] are not based on choice, but a predisposition.

Is this your position that homosexual desires are not based on choice but are based on predisposition?

I do not support this view as the Scriptures do not affirm such in Romans 1:16f, esp. 26-27, and 1 Cor 6:9-11.

From my many years of counselling experience and counselling with male homosexuals, some of whom had come to Christ, one of the greatest struggles for them was to find company and associations in the heterosexual community. Close relationships were only in the homosexual lifestyle for many of them. Until this attachment was broken and replaced with heterosexual associations, many redeemed former homosexuals struggled to eliminate homosexual sin from their lives.

The renewing of the mind is critical to all believers, but especially new Christians as there is so much ungodly thinking there from prior to salvation. I'm thinking of the application of verses such as these:

17 With the Lord’s authority I say this: Live no longer as the Gentiles do, for they are hopelessly confused. 18 Their minds are full of darkness; they wander far from the life God gives because they have closed their minds and hardened their hearts against him. 19 They have no sense of shame. They live for lustful pleasure and eagerly practice every kind of impurity.
20 But that isn’t what you learned about Christ. 21 Since you have heard about Jesus and have learned the truth that comes from him, 22 throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception. 23 Instead, let the Spirit renew your thoughts and attitudes. 24 Put on your new nature, created to be like God—truly righteous and holy (Eph 4:17-24 NLT).

A parallel message is in Colossians 3:1-6,

Since you have been raised to new life with Christ, set your sights on the realities of heaven, where Christ sits in the place of honor at God’s right hand. 2 Think about the things of heaven, not the things of earth. 3 For you died to this life, and your real life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 And when Christ, who is your life, is revealed to the whole world, you will share in all his glory. 5 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. 6 Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming (NLT).

There are some choices that need to be made after a life of sin and a person comes to Christ for salvation, whether that be for thieves, idolaters, heterosexual and homosexual immorality, greedy, drunkards, swindlers, etc.

This is where discipleship of new believers is critical but I see too much of Christians who don't hold new Christians to accountability in caring for and praying for one another. Giving up attendance at homosexual haunts is critical in helping these people grow in their lives of redemption. Teaching ways to help with renewal of the mind (especially meditation on Scripture) is so important for new believers and especially the formerly homosexual sinners.

Sinning in thinking most often precedes sinning in action.

In Christ, Oz

 

[98cwitr]

Is this your position that homosexual desires are not based on choice but are based on predisposition?

Absolutely, unless you are suggesting that you and I somehow chose to be heterosexual.

I do not support this view as the Scriptures do not affirm such in Romans 1:16f, esp. 26-27, and 1 Cor 6:9-11.

This reaffirms sexual sin [action], not just homosexuality. Their desires were sinful, from both sides of the sexual orientated spectrum. God handed them over to their sinful desires. I, for one, can definitely relate to this.

From my many years of counselling experience and counselling with male homosexuals, some of whom had come to Christ, one of the greatest struggles for them was to find company and associations in the heterosexual community. Close relationships were only in the homosexual lifestyle for many of them. Until this attachment was broken and replaced with heterosexual associations, many redeemed former homosexuals struggled to eliminate homosexual sin from their lives.

Eliminate sin yes...what about desires? Can those to be "eliminated?"

The renewing of the mind is critical to all believers, but especially new Christians as there is so much ungodly thinking there from prior to salvation. I'm thinking of the application of verses such as these:

A parallel message is in Colossians 3:1-6,

There are some choices that need to be made after a life of sin and a person comes to Christ for salvation, whether that be for thieves, idolaters, heterosexual and homosexual immorality, greedy, drunkards, swindlers, etc.

This is where discipleship of new believers is critical but I see too much of Christians who don't hold new Christians to accountability in caring for and praying for one another. Giving up attendance at homosexual haunts is critical in helping these people grow in their lives of redemption. Teaching ways to help with renewal of the mind (especially meditation on Scripture) is so important for new believers and especially the formerly homosexual sinners.

Sinning in thinking most often precedes sinning in action.

In Christ, Oz

I agree

 

[OzSpen]

Absolutely, unless you are suggesting that you and I somehow chose to be heterosexual.

This reaffirms sexual sin [action], not just homosexuality. Their desires were sinful, from both sides of the sexual orientated spectrum. God handed them over to their sinful desires. I, for one, can definitely relate to this.

Eliminate sin yes...what about desires? Can those to be "eliminated?"

I agree

You are making a false assumption about me. I chose to be heterosexual in my relationship and with my wife for heterosexual expression. I am following the model of Genesis 2:18-25:

18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for [or, corresponding to] him.” 19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed [or, had formed] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam [or the man] there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made [Hebrew built] into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,
“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed (ESV).

On this foundation, God made all of us for heterosexual involvement. Homosexual sexual involvement is contrary to God's design. Then we add the complicating factor of Satan's involvement in sin (starting with Gen 3).

I don't plan in adapting my language to 'sexual orientation' as that is not the biblical way of describing how the sexual relationship should function.

Homosexual and heterosexual sin are described in Rom 1:24 as 'God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity'. Sounds awfully like 'their' is used for the people taking action and not some sexual orientation.

Oz

 

[98cwitr]

You are making a false assumption about me. I chose to be heterosexual in my relationship and with my wife for heterosexual expression. I am following the model of Genesis 2:18-25:
On this foundation, God made all of us for heterosexual involvement. Homosexual sexual involvement is contrary to God's design. Then we add the complicating factor of Satan's involvement in sin (starting with Gen 3).

I don't plan in adapting my language to 'sexual orientation' as that is not the biblical way of describing how the sexual relationship should function.

Homosexual and heterosexual sin are described in Rom 1:24 as 'God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity'. Sounds awfully like 'their' is used for the people taking action and not some sexual orientation.

Oz

Well, I'll speak for myself and say that I did not choose to be heterosexual, it's part of my inherent nature.

*should != does

Just look in Matthew to how Christ describes divorce.

Divorce is contrary to God's design...heck, we could say that all sin is contrary to God's design...but I digress.

It seems to me you want to put homosexual sin in a special category...but as James would say, sin is sin regardless.

 

[OzSpen]

Well, I'll speak for myself and say that I did not choose to be heterosexual, it's part of my inherent nature.

*should != does

Just look in Matthew to how Christ describes divorce.

Divorce is contrary to God's design...heck, we could say that all sin is contrary to God's design...but I digress.

It seems to me you want to put homosexual sin in a special category...but as James would say, sin is sin regardless.

This is contrary to what I have been emphasising in this thread. I do NOT place homosexual sin in a special category. I placed it with many other sins in 1 Cor 6:9-11 and heterosexual and homosexual sins together in Romans 1. Please don't accuse me of saying what I did not say as that makes your statement a false one about what I said.

I do note that you did not answer the content of my previous post.

Oz

 

[98cwitr]

This is contrary to what I have been emphasising in this thread. I do NOT place homosexual sin in a special category. I placed it with many other sins in 1 Cor 6:9-11 and heterosexual and homosexual sins together in Romans 1. Please don't accuse me of saying what I did not say as that makes your statement a false one about what I said.

I do note that you did not answer the content of my previous post.

Oz

My fault and misunderstanding. Sorry. I do agree as well.

 

[CRCampbell]

Pastors out there...
I have a sin I have been trying to kick for 4 years now. And it's gotten to the point now where I have the ability to withstand the temptation, but I still fall at least once a week. My record is 8 days. I pray and repent over and over, and yet I still fall. It is tearing me up inside and leaves me feeling hopeless, and asking myself why. Usually I only do it when I'm tired or stressed. I was doing my devotions this morning and came across Hebrews 6:4-6 and panicked. I know I have been doing wrong, but does that mean I can no longer be accepted by Christ because I have kept doing it after being saved and knowing I am wrong?

Pray, and keep confessing. 1 Jn 1:9 says that if we confess our sins, then he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If your sins are forgiven then you are going to heaven. There is now therefore NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1) How much condemnation? NONE.

Check out Romans 7:14-25 where Paul talks about sin in his members. The very fact that this sin sears your conscious is a good thing, but don't let it upset you. Not all sin goes away. You and I will still sin until we're dead and with Christ.

Resist the Devil and he will flee from you. (Jas 4:7)

This is what living under grace is about.

Remember, if there appears a contradiction in Scripture, it's because we don't understand the passage. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a stumbling block for many.