Hebrew Catholics

[JeffreyLloyd]

Any MJ here Catholic?

 

[SonWorshipper]

Jeffrey, you must not understand what Messianic Judaism is, to ask that.

I know that there are Jewish members here that may be also Catholic but that would definatly mean that they are Not Messianic, but Christian, sometimes referred to as Hebrew Christians.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Whys that?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Isn't a Messianic Jew just a Jewish person who believes in Jesus as the Messiah?

 

[SonWorshipper]

Why's what?

 

[SonWorshipper]

OH, No, that is not what a Messianic Jew is. A Messianic Jew or gentile for that matter is one who believes that Yeshua Ben Yosef ( Jesus son of Joseph) was/is the promised Messiah AND choose to worship in a way that most resembles the first century believers, such as the church in Jerusalem. We do so using the Holi(Y)days of the L-rd as outlined in Leviticus, and not manmade ones, and worship in a Jewish manner in regards to litergy, and the readings ( like when Yeshua got up in the synagogue to read from the scroll of Isaiah), and we worship with song and dance.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Worship, Praise, Prayer, and teaching on His Word, this is what composes most of our two hour service. We meet during the week in cell meetings, for worship and then prayer.

 

[SonWorshipper]

Oh, and we come together on the Biblical Sabbath, not the man-made one.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Oblio]

Oh, and we come together on the Biblical Sabbath, not the man-made one.

I agree that the Sabbath is Saturday, and it is revered as a feast day by Christians. But did not the First Century Christians gather for worship on Sunday to commemorate our Lords Resurrection ?

What is your opinion of Liturgica's Early Christian Worship page?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Our church has Mass on Saturday.

 

[Talmid HaYarok]

. But did not the First Century Christians gather for worship on Sunday to commemorate our Lords Resurrection ?

The 1st century Nazarene Jews kept the Sabbath worship and generally worshipped the Messiah in the synagogues. You can find in the Bible that Paul generally went to Synagogues first in every city and worshipped there with non-believing Jews. Those Jews weren't generally worshipping on sunday.

 

[SonWorshipper]

I agree that the Sabbath is Saturday, and it is revered as a feast day by Christians. But did not the First Century Christians gather for worship on Sunday to commemorate our Lords Resurrection ?

What is your opinion of Liturgica's Early Christian Worship page?

For one thing this seems to be contradictory:

[font=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Origin[/font]

[font=arial,helvetica,sanserif]Early Christian worship had an origin: Jewish worship form and practice. The early disciples did not create new worship practices any more than did Jesus Christ. They all prayed as Jews and worshipped as Jews. The earliest Christians were Jews who recognized and accepted Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah, and the worship that they practiced was liturgical because Jewish worship was liturgical. For this reason we see in the New Testament that the early Christians continued their Jewish worship practices, even while they added some uniquely Christian components. The most central new content was the sacrament of the Eucharist (or Communion) as instituted by Christ at the Last Supper. However, in the early Church this was celebrated as a separate service for many years.[/font]

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This was not "new" this was a traditional Passover Seder, celebrated in it's fullness of meaning bringing them up to the completion of the third cup, the third thing that the L-rd promised them back in Egypt,

I WILL REDEEM YOU ( Exodus 6:6-7)

The L-rd instituted nothing, he just explained the full meaning of it, and commanded them that when they came together from now on in celebration of this perpetual commandment given back then to remember that He was the fulfillment of the 3rd cup or 3rd part of what the L-rd had promised. The forth is yet to come, and that will be fulfilled in the New Kingdom.

This is the same as Baptism, many wrongfully believe that this was a new Christian thing, but it was not, it was a ritual cleansing process, that is why John could do this before Yeshua died, it was a preparation. Of that time, "prepare ye the way of the L-rd"

Now it serves as a sign of what takes place inside our hearts, the Ruach HaKodesh ( Holy Spirit) who makes us born again, and cleanses us of iniquity, and then we are immersed to show in front of witnesses what has happened inside us.

 

[SonWorshipper]

In Yeshua's time as it was since they left Egypt this Passover was celebrated as a memorial to what the L-rd had done. It now had new meaning, deeper, but this was not to change, for the L-rd does not change.


Exodus 12

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token ( sign) upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.



See this wasn't new at all, He told them to see now the wine , the cup of redeemption that they had been keeping for a memorial was representing his blood that was to be shed for their sins. The unleavened bread, ( leaven represents sin) was to represent now his body. So when they came together at this time of year they would remember what he did and how it is now represented in the Passover Seder.

Seder means "Order", this has a specific order that is very "Jewish" it makes me wonder why that isn't included in this orderly litergy of the OC or RCC?