Ben johnson said:
Faith in God means "surrender, submission"; it means "throwing myself broken and humble at His feet"; it is recognizing that I am condemned, worthless, sinner. It is as far away from boasting as can possibly be...
Listen to what you just said. Your faith in God =
your act of surrender,
your submission,
your recognition of condemnation,
your recognition of your worth,
your recognition of your sinfulness.
That's not boasting? In and of itself maybe not. It depends on the reason you surrender, submit, recognize your condemnation, recognize your worth, and recognize your sinfulness. Why do you recognize it and those who reject God don't? Are you smarter then they are? Are you more attuned to the prompting of the Holy Spirit? Are you just lucky enough to have been born to the right family or the right part of the world?
That is a problem, isn't it? Your view is that God allowed some to be born with no hope of redemption whatsoever....
God didn't "allow" some to be born with no hope of redemption. God created some with no desire for redemption. God is not, as you like to portray Him, a member of the sidelines. God's immutable plan is immutable because it is manifested by His sovereign power.
When one is saved, credit goes to the Savior.
When you get your paycheck does the credit for your paycheck go to your employer or to you? Are they the ones that earned that paycheck or did you?
The only question between us is the mechanics of salvtaion
I daresay it's a bit more than that. Our biggest contention is probably the nature of unregenerate man. If I remember correctly you believe that man, in his fallen state, is fully capable of overcoming his love for his sin and embracing the Lord as Savior. I, on the other hand, acknowledge that fallen man, in his unregenerate state, is not only incapable of doing so, but disinclined as well.
--- does love COMPEL, or WOO?
Well, what does the Word say?:
2 Corinthians 5:14
For
the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
Does God COMMAND, or REQUEST?
He most certainly commands. Isn't that what you think?
It is not a detraction to the ONE (God) when the OTHER rebels and refuses to love back.
Of course not, if that's God's intention. "Refusing to love God back" is an idiom that makes no sense because all those whom God loves do love Him back. The Word says, "we
love Him
because He first loved us." It doesn't say, "we
can love Him because He first loved us."
As for a detraction, the idea that God could pour out His divine love upon someone for the purpose of getting them to love Him back and it not work out as He planned, well, if you don't think that's a detraction then I would doubt your understanding of what "sovereign" means.
That I DO acknowledge; it would be CAPRICIOUS if God gave grace arbitrarily to only CERTAIN ONES;
First off, I'm referring to salvitic grace. Addtionally, the capriciousness of God's bestowal of grace is determined by the result of bestowing it. For instance, it would be capricious of God to bestow grace upon someone and then not care if that grace accomplished the reason for which it was given. However, it is not capricious of God to bestow His saving grace upon His elect, and only His elect, because it is that very grace that regenerates them and undeniably creates in them a desire to serve Him in obedience.
I recognize He gives the same grace to ALL.
He gives the same grace to all but that grace doesn't always produce the same results? That is a ridiculous violation of logic. That is akin to saying that a person with a quarter aligned on heads flips the quarter with the exact same amount of pressure in the exact same envirionment and catches it at exactly the same height every single time and gets different results. Of course this scenario is impossible but so is the idea that God gives the exact same amount and kind of grace and getting different results. Does that even make sense to you?
And I have never said "He accomplishes the salvation of all", I said "He gives salvation TO all. Universal offer, not universal salvation.
See, now this is a spot of confusion. If He "gives" salvation then that means the person has it. "Gives" is not "offers." They are very different. If I "give" you $100 then you have it. If I "offer" you $100 dollars then you don't have it until you accept it. You use "give" and "offer" as if they're synonyms. They're not.
The problem with PE, is that it asserts God is INSINCERE; either offering salvation to those He knows CANNOT receive it, or only equipping some FEW to RECEIVE it. I just don't happen to believe that God is insincere...
Shooting ill based barbs at opposing viewpoints doesn't make your point any more accurate. First off, those who believe in the predestined election of God don't believe that God is insincere. God does not offer salvation to anyone. He either saves or He doesn't. We don't have salvation because we receive it. We receive it because He gives it. You put the cart before the horse.
Or the third choice --- God is love, and love "does not DEMAND its own way" (1Cor13).
LOL! Are you actually contending that God does not demand His own way???!! Aside from that, this is not a problem for me. I do not believe God loves everyone so, as I said, there is no conflict for me to resolve regarding God's love for those who never "accept" Him. I believe the love of God accomplishes exactly what God desires it to accomplish. As I pointed out before, "we
love Him
because He loved us first."
Why (in your view) would He visit judgment upon those who "treasonably rebel"?
Because He is holy.
Why would God condemn WHAT THEY COULD NOT AVOID?
They could not avoid it because they never desired to avoid it. As I've said many a time, we are desire driven creations. I agree with Jonathan Edwards when he said, "man
must always choose according to his greatest desire or inclination at that moment." He must. When man is faced with a choice, any choice, his greatest desire is what motivates him. The reason that unregenerate man can not avoid sinning is because they never desire to obey God. God does not force them to disobey. They do so because, when faced with the choice to either obey or disobey God, their desire to disobey God is always their greatest desire.
How does my view "displace any credit from God"?
Because you either make God work in illogical ways, i.e., He gives the same measure and type of grace to all people but gets different results, or indifferent as to whether His grace actually accomplishes the goal for which He gives it.
I rightly recognize that while Jn1:13 says "the BORN-AGAIN is NONE of us and ALL of Him, the gift is JESUS-ON-THE-CROSS accomplishing the sacrifice for us ENTIRE AND COMPLETE"
Hmmm...
I have never said "He accomplishes the salvation of all"
Is there a conflict here or do you see a difference between the sacrifice of Christ and the salvation that His sacrifice procures?
the previous verse Jn1:12 says "the RECEIVING is a CHOICE".
First, I never said that receiving wasn't a choice. Secondly, John 1:12 does
NOT say "receiving is a choice." It says, "as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God." Receiving Christ is a choice. However, it is a choice that only the elect, by the providential and regenerative grace of God, will make.
If I should choose not to receive His precious gift of grace, it is not God that has failed me, it is I who have failed God.
The idea that God gives you His grace
for the purpose of accomplishing your salvation and His providence is thwarted because of His creation is so man centered as to be unreal. How, and for what reason, would God give His grace only to have it rejected? The thing you're sidestepping is that it isn't our choice that determines the effectiveness of God's grace. It is because of God's grace that we accept Him.
Why else do you think Heb12:15 says "SEE that you DO NOT FAIL the GRACE of GOD"? Any way to fit that verse into "Predestined-Election"?
Huh?? Talk about prooftexting. Ben, this is an admonishment to the covenant people of God to avoid sinful behavior. This has nothing to do with salvation.
Always we are accused of "Pelagic heresy" --- that we possess redeeming qualities of ourselves. But we do NOT. Only by BROKENNESS, which is complete REJECTION of self and ACCEPTANCE of our Savior, can we be saved. This is the opposite of what Pelagius said...
The whole idea of your salvation being a result of rejecting yourself and accepting Christ shows where you put the credit, right where Pelagius put it...at the foot of the creation. If you're saved it's because God, in His merciful providence, while you were yet His enemy, made you a part of His fold. If you are broken then it's because God, in His divine providence, chose that manner in which to enlighten you to His mercy. If you reject yourself then it's because God, in His providence, gives you the grace to do so. If you accept Christ as your Savior then it's because God, in His providence, has renewed you unto life by removing your heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh.
I on the other hand, see Paul in Rom10:10 saying, "with the HEART man BELIEVES" (salvic-faith); and "salvic-faith comes from HEARING" (Rom10:17), not "instilled by God.
It's so ironic that you would use Romans 10:10. Skip forward 7 verses:
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing
by the word of God.
That phrase, "by the
word of God" does not refer to Scripture. It is not saying that we have faith because we read the Scriptures and understand them. It is saying that we truly hear the Gospel by the utterance of God, because He divinely gives us "ears to hear."
And "salvic-faith comes from wisdom from learning from sacred Scriptures" (2Tim3:15).
So you're saved because you're wiser than others? Oh, why didn't you just say so. At least you weren't circumspect about it this time.
I just cannot find any verse that says "salvic-faith is instilled by God".
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
That help at all?
It doesn't follow "FAITH", it follows "THROUGH FAITH" (dia pistis) --- which is a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE; a prepositional phrase cannot elevate to a second subject. A prepositional phrase modifies the subject (singular):
1. By grace (prepositional phrase)
2. Through faith (prepositional phrase)
3. Not of yourselves
4. it is gift of God
5. Not by works, lest anyone boast
What one subject is modified by all five modifiers, equally? Is it not, "that salvation"?
I know you fancy yourself somewhat of a Greek and Hebrew scholar. Broken down like this you make a point. Not a sound one but one nonetheless. It isn't an issue of whether the "modifiers," when broken down, can refer to salvation. It's an issue of whether it refers to
only salvation. Look, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Now, you contend that each of these prepositional modifiers refers to salvation. I agree. You also contend that salvation is "through" faith, right? What was that you said again? Oh yeah, "salvic-faith comes from wisdom from learning from sacred Scriptures." So, according to you, we are saved because of wisdom we have gained by learning the sacred Scriptures. That is not only boasting, it is claiming that your wisdom is the point of origin for salvation.
Why do you think the NAS translators got it so wrong?
Who are the "NAS translators" and what makes you think they couldn't have been wrong?
Salvic-faith is from conviction, which is from brokenness --- not boastable, but recognizing the regretable.
So the lack of salvific faith is the product of not being wise enough to recognize the regretable? Oh I see. You're wiser. That's why you're saved. Sure, that's not about you...
Do you see that REGRET is the opposite of BOAST?
Uh...no. The opposite of boast is depreciate. The opposite of a boasting person is a humble person.
We are constrained to Scripture; if PE is right, then why does so much rebuking occur against those who WILL not believe, who SAY they are following God and Moses but really are NOT? "You WILL not receive Me, because you DO not seek God's glory but MAN's; you don't REALLY even follow MOSES. (Jn5:40-47) You don't REALLY follow God --- if you DID, then you would love ME." (Jn8:42)
Are you asking why a holy God with rebukes those who lie? What does that have to do with predestined election? Predestined election doesn't mean that God's elect won't sin. It just means that, by virtue of the work of Christ, our sin no longer leads to death.
Jn6:45 says, "All shall be taught; those who have ...LEARNED come to Me." 2Tim3:15 says "the sacred writings able to give you the wisdom that leads to faith that causes salvation through Jesus". Do you see the SOURCE of that faith, Reformationist? Paul says "wisdom from Scriptureal study causes salvic-faith' --- NOT "God INSTILLS salvic-faith".
Ooooh. I see. You're saved because of your dilligent study of the Word. No. That's not boasting in yourself. Face it Ben; you believe you earned your salvation.
Often I am forced to post TWICE, as the FIRST post DISAPPEARS;
Maybe it's a sign...
Tell me, Ref, do you sin? Of course you do sin.
Of course I do.
Why is God unable to overcome your rebelliousness so that you DON'T SIN?
He is able. He chooses not to. He is under no obligation to give me the grace to not sin. In fact, my sinfulness is one of the many tools that God uses to sanctify people like you Ben. If I were never a difficult person to deal with you would never have to learn to extend me any Christian love and forebearance.
That you SIN, demonstrates that God is RESISTIBLE. No?
No. It just demonstrates that God's plan doesn't revolve around me.
So rather than "wondering why we need Jesus in the first place", you and I agree that salvation is entirely of Jesus; accomplished on the Cross, none of us.
Um...no. That's what I believe. You, on the other hand, and I quote, " I have never said He accomplishes the salvation of all, I said He gives salvation TO all. Universal offer, not universal salvation." You believe what was accomplished on the Cross was the avenue by which God is justified in offering us salvation. According to you, no one's salvation was
accomplished on the Cross.
I believe I have overwhelmingly shown the latter in Scripture...
Okay. You'd be incorrect in that assumption.
God bless
