Heb 10:26-27

[jwsiii]

Heb 10:26-27 says that if someone keeps sinning after he has gained knowledge of the truth, he cannot be saved because there is no sacrifice left for him. What does a Christian have to do to get to the point where he can no longer be saved?

 

[armothe]

Heb 10:26-27 says that if someone keeps sinning after he has gained knowledge of the truth, he cannot be saved because there is no sacrifice left for him. What does a Christian have to do to get to the point where he can no longer be saved?

But keep in mind the next verse states:

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

This verse implies a "rejection" to the truth. A rejection which entails a direct defiance to God and a continuance of deliberate sin. Verse 29 goes on to say:

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

So you see it is not talking about the occasional sin as committed by a Christian, but rather a person who openly defys and rejects the blood of Christ -that covers all sin.

-A

 

[jwsiii]

So this is more like sinning solely for the purpose of defying Jesus?

 

[armothe]

So this is more like sinning solely for the purpose of defying Jesus?

It is realizing and then rejecting the truth of Christ. Choosing to remain a sinner- despite having the clear opportunity to become sinless through Christ.

-A

 

[jwsiii]

Does this ever happen or is it one of those things like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that doesn't really happen?

 

[armothe]

Does this ever happen or is it one of those things like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that doesn't really happen?

Well, first of all "gaining knowledge of the truth" doesn't imply that one is a Christian. It means they've been presented the truth of the gospel. The truth that Christ came to redeem man through His blood.

If someone is presented this truth, and rejects it - they will be punished.

-A

 

[reformedfan]

Whadd'ya mean "like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that doesn't really happen"?
Everytime someone dies a non Christian, they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit & are not forgiven but punished eternally.
Heb. 10:26-27 is for the Esaus of the world, not the Jacobs.( Ro 9) Kids that grow up in a covenat family & reject the truth, etc.

 

[JohnStevenson]

But keep in mind the next verse states:

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

This verse implies a "rejection" to the truth. A rejection which entails a direct defiance to God and a continuance of deliberate sin. Verse 29 goes on to say:

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

So you see it is not talking about the occasional sin as committed by a Christian, but rather a person who openly defys and rejects the blood of Christ -that covers all sin.

Excellent answer!!!!
Too few people bother to read the context of a given passage and that seems to be especially true when people come to Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. Both these passages are speaking of essentially the same thing. They are speaking to those who are being tempted to abandon their newfound faith in Jesus as the Messiah and to return to their former Judaism.

 

[jwsiii]

Excellent answer!!!!
Too few people bother to read the context of a given passage and that seems to be especially true when people come to Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26. Both these passages are speaking of essentially the same thing. They are speaking to those who are being tempted to abandon their newfound faith in Jesus as the Messiah and to return to their former Judaism.

That would make sense since it's the Epistle to the Hebrews. About the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit thing, I read this: http://www.carm.org/questions/blasphemy.htm and got my ideas from there, but we're getting kind of off-topic with this.

 

[Ben johnson]

Well, first of all "gaining knowledge of the truth" doesn't imply that one is a Christian.

I disagree. The Greek here is "epignosis" --- which is far more than just "head-knowledge", it is experiential. In 2Pet1:1-4 "epignosis" undeniably means "saved", and 2Pet2:20-22 also means "saved". Further, verse 29 says "...blood of the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" --- this verse is talkin' about someone who fell from salvation.

Both these passages are speaking of essentially the same thing. They are speaking to those who are being tempted to abandon their newfound faith in Jesus as the Messiah and to return to their former Judaism.

Neither verse says "they can NEVER be saved AGAIN". The Heb6 verse says "it is ADUNATOS-UNABLE to restore them to repentance, BECAUSE they crucify Jesus to themselves again and hold Him to shame". Different translations use "BECAUSE", or "SINCE", or "SEEING-AS"; NAS footnotes it, "WHILE!"

The context clearly says "they won't WANT to repent WHILE they are contemptuous unbelievers". This does not contradict Rom11:23 ("If they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief they can be grafted in again...")

 

[Reformationist]

Heb 10:26-27 says that if someone keeps sinning after he has gained knowledge of the truth, he cannot be saved because there is no sacrifice left for him. What does a Christian have to do to get to the point where he can no longer be saved?

Christians never get to this point because God protects them from it.

God bless

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Heb 10:26-27 says that if someone keeps sinning after he has gained knowledge of the truth, he cannot be saved because there is no sacrifice left for him. What does a Christian have to do to get to the point where he can no longer be saved?

This is stating that God died once for all sins: past presence and future.

saved from what?.... consequences on this earth Gal 6:7-9

Eph 5:6-9 states that believers are sometime partakers of darkness

as does 1 john 1:8,10

thus showing indirectly that we have two different natures/wills as in Gal 5:17-24 shows all two well

 

[Sharky]

i'm not sure which bible your reading but mine says (amplified) willfully sin.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

does it matter one cannot sin without knowing it is wrong first

if one does not know it is called unrighteousness not sin

 

[Ben johnson]

Christians never get to this point because God protects them from it

Here is the issue that has not been settled between us ("RG" and "PE"). Peter says "we are protected by the power of God through faith" (1:1:5). The question remains, "is salvic-faith from US, or instilled by God?"

The only verse that PE offers to indicate "faith is from God", is Eph2:8; do you believe the translators of the NASV erred when they footnoted "THAT", as "THAT SALVATION"?

Recognizing that salvic-faith is identically salvic-belief, how does Paul's wording of "with the heart man believes" (Rm10:10) accomodate PE's idea that "salvic-faith is instilled by God"? Doesn't 2Tim3:15 say that "salvic-faith comes from wisdom comes from the heart" (rather than "comes from GOD")?

Is there ANY verse (beyond Eph2:8) that asserts "salvic-faith/belief is instilled by God"?

If salvic-faith comes from US, then so too comes perseverance, endurance, abiding --- from our own hearts.

"You, beloved, building YOURSELVES up in you most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God,waiting anxiously for the mercy of Jesus to eternal life." Jd21

In all of the Scriptures, do you see any of "GOD PERSEVERING THEM", or do you see "PERSEVERE IN CHRIST"?

To persist in PE, one must redefine warning after warning as "Hyperbole, not REAL"; one must rewrite Scriptures like Eph5:1-7 and 2Pet2:20-22 and James1:14-16 and James5:19-20 and Heb3:12-14 and so many others, as "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED in the FIRST PLACE". Eph5 alone denies PE; they were "begun in the Spirit, running well" (3:3, 5:7) They were saved. But by returning to LAW, they are "fallen from grace, severed from Christ". They are now unsaved. Just as they were in 2Pet2 (saved then unsaved), and those in James1:15, James 5:19-20. There is no way to deny that a truly saved person (2Pet2:18 "ontos apopheugo TRULY ESCAPED"), can become unsaved.

This thread topics on Heb10:26; but verse 29 follows: "WAS sanctified, but now tramples Jesus, scorns the blood, insults the Spirit". All of Scripture refutes PE. The SAVED, can be LOST. We are not predestined.

 

[Sunbeam]

Christians never get to this point because God protects them from it.

God bless

Well I've met many ex-christians. Some of which were heavily involved in ministry, the church activities, and witnessing. So I can't say I agree with you here.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

The SAVED, can be LOST. We are not predestined.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me , but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the father in my name, he may give it to you

eph 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love

1peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation[no choice] a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show[choice] forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light

Ben Ben Ben

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he did predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren

HOW CAN WE DO ANY OF THESE THINGS........

 

[Reformationist]

The question remains, "is salvic-faith from US, or instilled by God?"

I guess that depends on who you wish to boast in. Did you make the right decision or did God, the Sovereign of all creation, exercise His divine right as Creator of all created and set apart, unto the glory of His Son, a people? The issue you are forced to face that I, by the grace of God, am not is where that faith that you claim is inherent to fallen man came from. You cannot claim that it is the product of God's grace because then you'd have to acknowledge that either God gave more grace to some than He did to others; or, that some of the recipients of His universal grace were more spiritual and trusted Him, thereby placing the credit at the feet of the creation rather than the Creator. Additionally, you'd have to acknowledge that God is capricious in the provision of His grace, giving it arbitrarily to both those whom He knew would accept it and those whom He knew would reject it with no real stake in whether that grace accomplished it's intended goal, which, according to you, is the salvation of all. So, when considering your view, we are faced with the loathsome choice of believing God to either be impotent to accomplish His own goals or careless with regard to His divine provision of grace. Neither is a prospect which I could look upon favorably.

Unlike your anthropocentric view of the Almighty, my God centered stance places all credit where it should be placed, at the feet of God Himself. He created us all, elect and reprobate, with a purpose in mind. He, by His right and power as Creator, orchestrated the events of man's Fall while remaining blameless in it's circumstance. We are constantly reminded of His amazing grace in not only setting aside a portion of that creation to bless with His everlasting presence but His unmerited favor in our temporal existance. This is an awe inspiring contrast to His righteous judgement upon those vessels who treasonously rebell against His authority.

So, you see the redeeming quality for election in the creation while I, rightly, acknowledge that God's grace is just that, grace.

The only verse that PE offers to indicate "faith is from God", is Eph2:8;

Yeah. That's the only one. Why, oh why, haven't we poor, misguided souls been able to see that after centuries of cumulative study of the Word? Many of the most revered, accomplished, competent biblical scholars in history have heaped their claim of eternal life with their Creator on the shoulder's of a single verse. How could we have been so blind. Give me a break. I believe your pitiful view of God to be wrong but at least I'm not so arrogant enough to assume it's based on a single verse.

do you believe the translators of the NASV erred when they footnoted "THAT", as "THAT SALVATION"?

Oh, well, if the "translators of the NASV" make the claim that "THAT" refers to salvation then, by all means, who are we to question them. I mean, they are incapable of error, right? Far be it from us to acknowledge that proper grammer would dictate that otherwise. And Ben, as monotonous as it is becoming to remind you of this, reformed Chistians believe that salvation is also of God. We just acknowledge that that particular verse is not intended to convey that particular point.

For all others, let me fill you in on the issue at hand. Our illustrious scholar here, Ben, is claiming that in verse eight of the second chapter of the Book of Ephesians the word "that," which directly follows the word "faith" refers NOT to faith but rather to salvation.

So, as a matter of form, it makes more sense to certain people, including Ben, to read a statement such as, "He bought the jacket with his birthday money, and that not of himself" and conclude that the "and that" is a reference to the jacket. Sure. Makes sense. The jacket is not "of himself" is it? Or maybe, just maybe, that money that he got for his birthday is the "and that" that is being referenced. Once again, it all boils down to what, or rather who, you credit with our salvation. If, as Ben believes, salvation is the product of fallen man's inherent faith then the credit lies with those who smartly place that inherent faith in God. Of course, we must, at this point, acknowledge that if faith is inherent to those that, while in their fallen state, submit to God's authority then it must be inherent to all of mankind, including those who continue to rebell. Therefore, there are some who have faith but choose not to put it in Christ. So, if faith is, indeed, an inherent attribute of fallen man then the credit for their salvation, at least partly, lies with those smart enough to put it in Christ. My brethren, this is the heresy that was condemned at the Synod of Dort. I beseech you to resist it's man centered allure.

Recognizing that salvic-faith is identically salvic-belief, how does Paul's wording of "with the heart man believes" (Rm10:10) accomodate PE's idea that "salvic-faith is instilled by God"? Doesn't 2Tim3:15 say that "salvic-faith comes from wisdom comes from the heart" (rather than "comes from GOD")?

Who created that "heart" Ben? Do you think some are wise by chance?

Is there ANY verse (beyond Eph2:8) that asserts "salvic-faith/belief is instilled by God"?[/quote

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The qualification "by the word of God" is NOT a reference to His Scriptures. It is the word rhema which means "that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word." IOW, it is by the sovereign command of God that those to whom He gives that saving knowledge actually believe.

If salvic-faith comes from US, then so too comes perseverance, endurance, abiding --- from our own hearts.

No argument with your reasoning there. At least you don't claim that we are saved because we make the right choice but are then unable to rescind that choice. Tell me Ben, do you ever read your own posts. I often reread my thoughts after I've posted them to ensure that they convey what I believe. While I disagree with your belief that we are saved because of a condition God forsaw in us I am confused on how you can say that we are saved, persevere and are preserved by our own power against the righteous wrath of the Almighty as if such a thought piously glorifies the manifold blessings of God. On the contrary, I am beginning to wonder why you think we needed Jesus to die for us in the first place.

The SAVED, can be LOST. We are not predestined.

The torment that I would feel at the thought that my Creator was unable to overcome my rebelliousness would keep me up at night. All that extra "awake time" may give me the chance to study a bit and make me think I was something of an armchair Greek and Hebrew scholar. Hmmm...do I know anyone like that...? Well, hello there Ben I was just thinking of you. Sorry, my attention must have drifted.

 

[Reformationist]

Well I've met many ex-christians. Some of which were heavily involved in ministry, the church activities, and witnessing. So I can't say I agree with you here.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Claiming the title of Christian doesn't make someone a child of God. God makes someone a child of God:

John 1:12,13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God bless

 

[Sunbeam]

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Claiming the title of Christian doesn't make someone a child of God. God makes someone a child of God:

John 1:12,13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God bless

Yeah, pretty scary scriptures. And do you remember how the original issue was about how you don't think you can lose your salvation and how I think you can as a christian? Your scriptures support my defense of thought.