Heaven's Criteria?

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I know this is a fuzzy topic.... Rather than type a massive wall string, in which many may not read, here's a video :) Please fast forward past the first 2 minutes:


Thanks
Not for me, I guess, my view of salvation is Christus Victor and Recapitulation Theory.
 
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HTacianas

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I know this is a fuzzy topic.... Rather than type a massive wall string, in which many may not read, here's a video :) Please fast forward past the first 2 minutes:


Thanks

I fast forwarded past the first two minutes and began at the publisher's discussion on the Augustinian view of original sin. It's not something I hold to and is not something Eastern Christianity has ever held to. So in answer to the question of the title "Can God Choose Not To Send Babies to Hell", the answer is God can choose to do whatever He wishes to do.
 
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cvanwey

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I fast forwarded past the first two minutes and began at the publisher's discussion on the Augustinian view of original sin. It's not something I hold to and is not something Eastern Christianity has ever held to. So in answer to the question of the title "Can God Choose Not To Send Babies to Hell", the answer is God can choose to do whatever He wishes to do.

Yeah, I'm aware there exists many differing schools of thought. But you have to admit, the Bible seems pretty crystal clear on the matter, unless you wish to twist John 3:16-21 too :)

So the question stands, for ANYONE planting their flag in the Christian realm or kingdom, (as the premise is Jesus)... Do humans, whom have yet to hear of the Word, get a free pass?


I know this is a 'non-believer's video', thus, may feel a little off-putting... However, there's a lot of criteria spelled out in there, if you listen carefully. And again, I wish not to post a mass of text, in which no one will read :)
 
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HTacianas

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Yeah, I'm aware there exists many differing schools of thought. But you have to admit, the Bible seems pretty crystal clear on the matter, unless you wish to twist John 3:16-21 too :)

So the question stands, for ANYONE planting their flag in the Christian realm or kingdom, (as the premise is Jesus)... Do humans, whom have yet to hear of the Word, get a free pass?


I know this is a 'non-believer's video', thus, may feel a little off-putting... However, there's a lot of criteria spelled out in there, if you listen carefully. And again, I wish not to post a mass of text, in which no one will read :)

Humans who have yet to hear the gospel will be judged based on the things they have done in life, see Romans 2:14-16. Though it is difficult to obey the law when yourself or your society has habitually ignored the conscience.

One of the most important words of the gospel is repentance. Jesus said to his apostles, "go...and make disciples of all the nations...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..", see Matthew 28:19-20.

Mankind had forgotten the law. The apostles were to teach it to them. "For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem".
 
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cvanwey

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Humans who have yet to hear the gospel will be judged based on the things they have done in life, see Romans 2:14-16. Though it is difficult to obey the law when yourself or your society has habitually ignored the conscience.

One of the most important words of the gospel is repentance. Jesus said to his apostles, "go...and make disciples of all the nations...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..", see Matthew 28:19-20.

Mankind had forgotten the law. The apostles were to teach it to them. "For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem".


Please address the question in red. There exists a specific and pointed reason I ask...

We can probably go back in forth with Bible verses (which seem to conflict with one another), (i.e.) Mark 16:15-16 (rhetorical). I mentioned John 3:16, as it appears to be the poster card for general Christianity :)


Do humans, whom have yet to hear of the Word, get a free pass - (maybe if their moral intentions are 'good')?

Second question added:

Is the goal to have a relationship with Jesus, or go to heaven? Which one is more important?
 
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HTacianas

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Please address the question in red. There exists a specific and pointed reason I ask...

We can probably go back in forth with Bible verses (which seem to conflict with one another), (i.e.) Mark 16:15-16 (rhetorical). I mentioned John 3:16, as it appears to be the poster card for general Christianity :)


Do humans, whom have yet to hear of the Word, get a free pass - (maybe if their moral intentions are 'good')?

The question in red was the reason for the reference to Romans 2. No one gets a "free pass". They are judged on what they've done in life.
 
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cvanwey

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The question in red was the reason for the reference to Romans 2. No one gets a "free pass". They are judged on what they've done in life.

Then why spread the Word?

Since the Bible seems to be pretty clear on specifics and criteria, (i.e.) belief and repent, and all humans sin, and God hates ALL sin, what is the criteria for admittance? Is there a sin metric?

We are now entering a realm of convolution...

As for the new born, what have they done in life? Heaven or hell?
 
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HTacianas

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Then why spread the Word?

Since the Bible seems to be pretty clear on specifics and criteria, (i.e.) belief and repent, and all humans sin, and God hates ALL sin, what is the criteria for admittance? Is there a sin metric?

We are now entering a realm of convolution... You are making it harder than it is. Your further answers will be nothing more than none supported. The Bible states the terms. You appear to now be making up your own set of rules, like a kid on the playground, whom changes rules of the new game they made up, as they see fit.

Sorry..

You have asked questions, I have answered them. I have been consistent in my answers but honestly I get the idea you're not reading them.

What, specifically, seems to be the problem?
 
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cvanwey

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You have asked questions, I have answered them. I have been consistent in my answers but honestly I get the idea you're not reading them.

What, specifically, seems to be the problem?

I just edited my last post.

I'm following you down this path to see where it heads...

You appear to be a works based believer. Okay, I get that.

Thus, I ask:

1. Why spread the Gospel then? Seems as though whether or not someone knows the Lord is irrelevant (according to this model), which seems to contradict the entire premise. So I ask you, is knowing the true God a requirement?

2. How is an expired one year old judged?

3. Since God hates all sin, what metric is used for heaven's admittance?

You see, we have a 66 chapter book, and I doubt you will be able to clearly answer any of these questions. Thus, I'm giving the clear and concise answers presented, from the Bible: John 3:16-21, for starters :) It's that simple...
 
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HTacianas

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I just edited my last post.

I'm following you down this path to see where it heads...

You appear to be a works based believer. Okay, I get that.

Thus, I ask:

1. Why spread the Gospel then? Seems as though whether or not someone knows the Lord is irrelevant (according to this model), which seems to contradict the entire premise. So I ask you, is knowing the true God a requirement?

2. How is an expired one year old judged?

3. Since God hates all sin, what metric is used for heaven's admittance?

You see, we have a 66 chapter book, and I doubt you will be able to clearly answer any of these questions. Thus, I'm giving the clear and concise answers presented, from the Bible: John 3:16-21, for starters :) It's that simple...

1. As I said before, one of the most important parts of the gospel is repentance. We spread the gospel so that mankind can be baptized for the remission of their previous sins, and then teach them to obey the laws of God.

2. An expired one year old is not judged. There is nothing for a one year old to be found guilty of. There is a teaching among Calvinists that all people are born with a "default status" of condemnation and that even newborns are doomed to hell for never accepting the gospel. Calvinism is a recent idea and has been categorically condemned by the Church.

3. I do not know by what criteria people who have never heard the gospel will be judged. Romans 2 says they will be judged by their own conscience. It does not elaborate much further than that.
 
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I just edited my last post.

I'm following you down this path to see where it heads...

You appear to be a works based believer. Okay, I get that.

Thus, I ask:

1. Why spread the Gospel then? Seems as though whether or not someone knows the Lord is irrelevant (according to this model), which seems to contradict the entire premise. So I ask you, is knowing the true God a requirement?

2. How is an expired one year old judged?

3. Since God hates all sin, what metric is used for heaven's admittance?

You see, we have a 66 chapter book, and I doubt you will be able to clearly answer any of these questions. Thus, I'm giving the clear and concise answers presented, from the Bible: John 3:16-21, for starters :) It's that simple...
You do wrong in trying to use Sola Scriptura with an Orthodox and calling him "works based believer". Ironic that you sound like a fundamentalist.
 
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cvanwey

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1. As I said before, one of the most important parts of the gospel is repentance. We spread the gospel so that mankind can be baptized for the remission of their previous sins, and then teach them to obey the laws of God.

This does not answer my question. Is knowing the true God a requirement? It seems as though it is not. Stay with me...

2. An expired one year old is not judged. There is nothing for a one year old to be found guilty of.

Wouldn't it then be logical to be happiest if a parent's infant was to perish? Seems as though the parent would be 100% assured that their child was in heaven.

So what about the ones whom never heard the Gospel and perish, or the ones taught the wrong message and perish?


3. I do not know by what criteria people who have never heard the gospel will be judged. Romans 2 says they will be judged by their own conscience. It does not elaborate much further than that.

I know it does not. So how would you know what you are supposed to do, to reach heaven?

The philosophy you seem to have adopted appears to have some contradictions to work out :)

Do you care if your belief structure makes sense or not?
 
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cvanwey

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You do wrong in trying to use Sola Scriptura with an Orthodox and calling him "works based believer". Ironic that you sound like a fundamentalist.

No, the irony is that both adopted philosophies (i.e.) faith based vs works based, both seem to carry irreconcilable contradictions :)

I was raised in and have been exposed to both...
 
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No, the irony is that both adopted philosophies (i.e.) faith based vs works based, both seem to carry irreconcilable contradictions :)

I was raised in and have been exposed to both...
"I was raised in and have been exposed to both..."
Well, it seems that you were taught wrong since we don't believe in "works based salvation". Again, repeating something we don't believe won't make it true.
 
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This does not answer my question. Is knowing the true God a requirement? It seems as though it is not. Stay with me...



Wouldn't it then be logical to be happiest if a parent's infant was to perish? Seems as though the parent would be 100% assured that their child was in heaven.

So what about the ones whom never heard the Gospel and perish, or the ones taught the wrong message and perish?




I know it does not. So how would you know what you are supposed to do, to reach heaven?

The philosophy you seem to have adopted appears to have some contradictions to work out :)

Do you care if your belief structure makes sense or not?

No it would not be logical to want an infant to die. Mostly because no one wants to see their children die. That a child who dies before accountability goes to heaven is a consolation not a goal.

As I have already said, twice now, those who have never heard the gospel will be judged based on their behavior in life. I do not know what becomes of those who hear "the wrong message".

If you are asking how a person who has never heard the gospel knows how to get to heaven is by examining their own conscience. That is not unusual because it is generally a commonality between all world religions. Buddhists and Hindus meditate on right and wrong, and live by what is right. All civilizations have some form of determining right from wrong and typically codify it in their laws. The basis of that is the human conscience.

And my philosophy has no contradictions. It is very simple, and has been simple from the beginning.
 
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cvanwey

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No it would not be logical to want an infant to die. Mostly because no one wants to see their children die. That a child who dies before accountability goes to heaven is a consolation not a goal.

Yes, you would be sad, as you would not be able to spend a bit of time with them, while on earth for a finite period in time. Just like you might be sad when they move out/away, and you never see them much, or at all. However, this would be overshadowed by the fact you are now 100% certain they are now in heaven. And isn't that the goal for your kids, to assure they end up in the right direction/place? Thus, your sadness for their departure, would be overshadowed by the joy in knowing they are in a better place. Because again, the GOAL is for your kids to end up in the right place.

As I have already said, twice now, those who have never heard the gospel will be judged based on their behavior in life.

I know you've responded already, their 'conscience'. :) I'm asking for a very directed reason... To expose your contradiction.

You stated
'one of the most important parts of the gospel is repentance.'

Well, is it? What is to GOAL? The goal is to spend an eternity in heaven with Christ, right? It seems, using your belief model, that you are 100% assured to reach this destination, baring you either never reach the age of enlightenment, or maybe even ever heard the correct message.

To focus on your response though, here is what we know from the Bible. God hates ALL SIN. So like I asked you from the get-go... Is there a sin metric? I doubt He tallies up all the sin, and places it on some scale. How many good and bad acts does it take, in relation? Or is it, the intent? But... if the intent was to be a 'good' person, while worshiping a false idol, does THIS fly? Well, not according to the first commandment :)


I do not know what becomes of those who hear "the wrong message".

Sounds like the only ones whom are perfectly safe, are infants then, huh?

If you are asking how a person who has never heard the gospel knows how to get to heaven is by examining their own conscience. That is not unusual because it is generally a commonality between all world religions. Buddhists and Hindus meditate on right and wrong, and live by what is right. All civilizations have some form of determining right from wrong and typically codify it in their laws. The basis of that is the human conscience.

And my philosophy has no contradictions. It is very simple, and has been simple from the beginning.

The first commandment ;)
 
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cvanwey

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"I was raised in and have been exposed to both..."
Well, it seems that you were taught wrong since we don't believe in "works based salvation". Again, repeating something we don't believe won't make it true.

I was taught 'wrong' in the sense that Christianity is false? Or, taught 'wrong' in the sense that my translation of the Bible is incorrect? I would assume you are expressing the later...

Please educate me as to the 'correct' criteria, and why many opposing denominations have their interpretation incorrect? Because remember, they cannot all be right. At best, only one distinct interpretation is 'correct'. And at worst, they are all incorrect, in the since that the Bible was not God inspired at all.

Why should I believe that I'm lucky enough to have stumbled upon the one believer, among 100's of denominations, whom happens to have the one possible correct interpretation for what the meaning of the Bible's tenets are?
 
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Not David

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I was taught 'wrong' in the sense that Christianity is false? Or, taught 'wrong' in the sense that my translation of the Bible is incorrect? I would assume you are expressing the later...

Please educate me as to the 'correct' criteria, and why many opposing denominations have their interpretation incorrect? Because remember, they cannot all be right. At best, only one distinct interpretation is 'correct'. And at worst, they are all incorrect, in the since that the Bible was not God inspired at all.

Why should I believe that I'm lucky enough to have stumbled upon the one believer, among 100's of denominations, whom happens to have the one possible correct interpretation for what the meaning of the Bible's tenets are?
The Church is the foundation and pillar of truth, not your individual interpretation of the Bible. ;)
 
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The Church is the foundation and pillar of truth, not your individual interpretation of the Bible. ;)

Which 'church'? And further still, can you demonstrate this? And even further still, since there exists many many many denominations, why are they incorrect, but the one you have specifically adopted, is correct?

I'll start...

What is the 'church's' official translation to John 3:16-21?
 
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