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Featured LDS Heavenly Mother: LDS Fascination with Margaret Barker

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Here's a thread to discuss the LDS interest in Margaret Baker on the topic of Heavenly Mother.

    Thread
    Post #12
    Here's a thread to discuss the interest in Margaret Baker on the topic of Heavenly Mother.

    Post #16

    Post #17
    ======
    Here's a starter question, Peter. Would Margret Barker's Theology allow her to post in the Christian section of CF or would she be unorthodox by our site standards? Is she Trinitarian?

    BTW, they do allow heretics to teach in US Methodist Seminaries. I spent a semester at Candler School of Theology (Emory University) and my professor, Dr. Gene Tucker, taught a course on the Pentateuch where he taught that the books of Moses were really a combination of multiple sources (JEDP theory). Amidst his lectures a student asked, "Dr. Tucker, am I to teach this in my Methodist Church? They'd lynch me!" His reply was, "Tell them what they want to hear; but what I am teaching is the truth."

    After class I slipped a 3X5 card into his grade book. On it I wrote: James 3:1 >> "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment."

    Several years later after taking the same course from Dr. Bruce Waltke at Dallas Seminary I wrote Dr. Tucker and told him he had not been intellectually honest with us in that he neglected citing any of the strong arguments in favor Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch.... He did not reply.

    ===

    I know Margaret Baker was invited to lecture at BYU. What makes her popular with Mormons? How is her Heavenly Mother concept parallel to Mormon Heavenly Mom?

    I say both are heretical.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  2. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    There are thoughts that Margaret has that do not fit with the Church of Jesus Christ. But the one concept that does fit is that there is a Heavenly Mother. She then takes a lot of scriptures that she says have been changed and deleted entirely from the OT to show us that the concept of a Heavenly Mother was not a strange or heretical doctrine at one time in OT times.

    I can agree with her because there was a time that the Jews even whitewashed the lowly Messiah out of the OT, thinking that their Messiah would bring Israel back to prominence and Israel would rule the world. Not a born-in-a-manger lowly Messiah that would be crucified on a cross to the total embarrassment of Israel.

    These same one-God-only Jews, could not share the spotlight with anyone but God alone and so His wife had to go and His Son had to go too.

    It was nice to run across Margaret, and know that there is a segment of the Christian populace that appreciates the concept of a Mother in Heaven.
     
  3. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Document, please.

    Also... Would Margret Barker's Theology allow her to post in the Christian section of CF or would she be unorthodox by our site standards?
     
  4. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I have a problem with those who say that something was taken out of the bible without actually stating how they know it was removed? The book of Enoch is not taken as canon, no one took the book and deleted certain passages from it---the whole book went--there are several others that are not included. To cite none canon books as proof that passages have been removed is totally dishonest. Just because some book somewhere has something about a heavenly mother, doesn't mean that heavenly mother is real. The scriptures do not make any mention of her---Jesus never even implied it.
     
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Go to
    (right click and then left click "Open link in new window") Go to time period of 32:00

    I suspect she would be seen as a heretic by this forum.
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    She would be considered a heretic by most Christians. Though have to say---I have never liked that word. Reminds me of the inquisition. It's a perfectly acceptable word---just my own view. I guess I watched too many old movies with scenes with the inquisition.
     
  7. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    FYI -> When it comes to YouTube videos, there's usually an option to where you can share the video starting at a specific time stamp. Go to the "share" options below each video and it should come up.
     
  8. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Wow. That video is the most insanity I've seen in one place in a long, long time. Who is this nutter? I feel bad for the people who swallow this ridiculousness just because "look, a non-Mormon is validating our 'heavenly mother' concept!" or whatever.

    Apparently in all her writing she never bothered to consult any of the actual early Christian church's writers. Typical. It would be hard to peddle her nonsense before the eager know-nothings so desperate to be confirmed in their false and heretical belief if she had.

    "The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles, which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people. Moreover, being clothed with the sun intimates the hope of resurrection and the glory of the promise. And the moon intimates the fall of the bodies of the saints under the obligation of death, which never can fail. For even as life is diminished, so also it is increased. Nor is the hope of those that sleep extinguished absolutely, as some think, but they have in their darkness a light such as the moon. And the crown of twelve stars signifies the choir of fathers, according to the fleshly birth, of whom Christ was to take flesh."

    -- Victorinus of Pettau, Commentary on the Apocalypse (c. 260 AD, emphasis mine)

    St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) shared what has been a common interpretation of Revelation 12 since the earliest days: that the woman was in fact St. Mary, the Theotokos. This is apparently found somewhere in his Panarion, though I can't make sense of the citation I found of it (from a paper on Academia.edu that I don't want to bother to log in to download, Marian Interepretation of the Woman Clothed with the Sun According to the Fathers of the Church by one Marwil N. Llasos O.P.), as it is a citation of the passage taken from within a secondary source that I don't have access to, so I would not be able to trace it back without finding either that book or the original as it appears in Patrologia Graeca 42, which I also don't have access to, not because it's not available on Google Books, but because my Greek and Latin are both pretty lacking; I've been meaning to work on that when I'm done with French, Arabic, Russian, etc.). The important point is that the connection is there at an early enough time that this (mostly) fourth-century writer felt that he must mention it, in however qualified a manner (a point made in quotation in Llasos' paper).

    So she's the Church or she's St. Mary (or many who are more traditional would equate the two insofar as St. Mary is the mother of all Christians by virtue of being the mother of our Lord, God, and Savior, and hence in many typologies she stands in for the Church, as its womb, being again the literal womb of the incarnate Christ around Whom the Church would form). What she never is or has ever been thought of (or ever will be thought of) as is the LDS "heavenly mother", because that's crazy talk. It is perfectly reasonable within the bounds of received Christian orthodoxy to hold to a variety of approaches in interpreting the Revelation (it was, after all, one of the most controversial books of the NT; it was not originally included in the Syriac translation, the Pešitta, because in the second century when that translation was being made, it had not yet been universally accepted), but that interpretation can't include a bunch of batty stuff that you dreamed up somewhere because look at his verse and this verse and that verse. What is supposed to keep you moored to Christianity is keeping what has been accepted from generation to generation, not getting up at a podium with your fancy English accent and wowing a bunch of yokels because look at all the Biblical references you can make. This lady is a snake oil saleswoman, but it's spiritual poison she's selling, which is all the worse. Lord have mercy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  9. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't pass this on to anyone. It is not, no matter what you think, biblical in the slightest. She takes the finding of a bunch of small figurines in Israel as evidence that they believed in 3 gods--mother father and son---baloney! That the ancient Jews kept backsliding into idol worship is all over the OT! Female goddess worship is of Satan, nothing else. She gets her ideas from books that are not canon and totally misinterprets archeology to fit her theory---she is certainly more Mormon than Methodist! Never met a Methodist who believed such rubbish. She also believes that Jesus resurrection actually took place at His baptism--not after His death on the cross! Sorry---not buying that either.
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    All I have said about Barker is that she believes there is a Heavenly Mother.

    You say the video is insane, and I believe you about most of it. But let me show you some more insanity that you present.

    1) You have shown me that the church fathers thought the lady in rev. 12 is the ancient Church fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles.

    2) You also say the church fathers thought this lady in rev. 12 is the Church.

    3) And you have also said that the church fathers also thought this lady in rev. 12 is St. Mary.

    So which church father is right. Maybe Barker did start with the church fathers and got confused and so she came up with her own interpretation from the OT and NT scriptures.

    Again, all I am saying is that a segment of mainline Christians believe in a Heavenly Mother. I believe that Barker believes that St. Mary is Jesus Heavenly Mother and his earthly Mother.

    The Church of Jesus Christ does not accept her theology, accept that there is a Heavenly Mother. And I agree some of the things she says seem insane.
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As i said b4, I once kissed what I thought was
    Heavenly mother
    But I couldn't feel her lips.
     
  12. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Except she opens the scriptures and shows you where she is reading and the conclusion that she comes to. So you cannot say not biblical in the slightest. You many not agree with her interpretation, but she gets it from the bible.

    Have you ever been in the cathedral on the grounds of the leaning tower of Pisa?
    There is a large picture on the ceiling that depicts God the Father in the middle and Jesus on his right side, and Mary on his left side. Sounds pretty much like your 3 figurines. So not total baloney.

    Her theories are starting to resonate about goddesses in heaven to Christian audiences. She is remarking that very early on in Jewish beliefs there is evidence of a Mother in Heaven that has been whitewashed from the pages of the scriptures, just like the Son has been whitewashed from many scriptures in the OT. Especially the Son as the Messiah, the lowly Messiah that would be sacrificed on a cross. About the only thing we read about the Messiah in the OT is the conquering Messiah that brings Israel to power and rules the world from Jerusalem. That Messiah is prominent in the OT, but the suffering Messiah has been whitewashed, like his Mother in Heaven.

    She is not more Mormon than Methodist. She is a Methodist preacher and scholar. So yes she had visted BYU and given lectures there as she has lectured throughout Christendom. So no, she is not more Mormon than Methodist.

    She believes in a lot of things that we do not believe in too. But we do believe in a holy Heavenly Mother.
     
  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    The point of looking to the Early Church Fathers is to show what they taught, because it shows us the boundaries and varieties of interpretations found among the early Christian communities. It is not about pitting them against each other so as to determine one to be 'right' and the others to be 'wrong'. There is more than one way to interpret a given passage, and more than one hermenutic tradition by which we may do so, so why would we even expect any given fathers to necessarily agree on something as complex as the interpretation of St. John's Apocalypse? A book that, again, was not even accepted into the entire Church until sometime after the completion of the Pešitta (2nd century; it was not until the 7th century Harklean version, completed 616 AD, that it was included), and is heavily allegorical to begin with?

    Again, since the point is to look at what was affirmed and take that as the boundaries by which we may interpret the text, the point is not "this father says this, while that father says that", but rather that NOBODY EVER SAID, in the entire history of Christianity, what this lady is saying.

    p.s.- Peter1000, I have taken you off ignore for now because I do not think it is fair that I should address your posts without engaging you properly/personally (plus it's too hard to follow what's going on in the thread when so many posts are hidden). As I've always said, I do like you as a person and appreciate our discussions...but if you bring up unrelated nonsense about my communion when that's not what we're even talking about, you will be going right back on ignore, as that's the entire reason I put you there to begin with. Please stick to the topic of the conversation (whatever it may be). If you want to ask questions about the Coptic Orthodox Church or the OO communion more generally at any point for any reason, you can do so and I will make your question into a thread on the Voice of the Desert (OO subforum here on CF), with your permission, since I've been told Mormons can't make threads on the confessional subforums (I don't know whether or not that's true, but I remember Jane Doe saying Mormons aren't allowed to make threads on the main boards). Then we can talk about it properly. Cool?
     
  14. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    TOPIC: Heavenly Mother: LDS Fascination with Margaret Barker

     
  15. Grumman Tomcat

    Grumman Tomcat The LORD is my Pilot Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter

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    MOD HAT ON
    Thread cleaned up because there was a couple of issues with it.
    1. Please submit replies that are relevant to the topic of the thread.
    2. Promoting or proselytizing religious beliefs or religions other than Christianity is not allowed.

    MOD HAT OFF
     
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