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Heaven
- Thread starter dreadnought
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Earth is not intended to be like heaven and has a completely different objective. Heaven is our "rest", while here on earth we should be working our tails off for the kingdom.
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Scripture. So, if when we repent of our sin, "heaven is what our lives turn into"; then, why would the Apostle John have been given a revelation about a heaven where "there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4) Most of the original apostles were martyred, according to what has been passed down. Stephen and James were martyred. If heaven is what our lives are supposed to turn into, then there couldn't be any death, sorrow, crying, or pain once you repent. But, even for those whom Scripture came through, that wasn't the case. Because there is still sin in this world and even if we repent of our sin, it doesn't erase the effects of the sin that is all around us, even if not in us. That isn't heaven.
I constantly think of the true Christians who refused to deny Jesus when they had to watch their family beheaded in front of them. Was that their heaven? Or, is there something better awaiting those who were martyred for their faith--as Rev 6:9-11 seems to suggest?
If Paul was already in heaven, why would he still write as though he was "seeing through a glass, darkly; but, then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12) We know he had a powerful encounter with Jesus, because Saul/Paul did an about-face. From a Christian hunter to a Christian the Jews wanted to kill. Then, Paul talked about getting his doctrine directly from Jesus. So, I think it is safe to say that he had a real relationship with Jesus Christ. So, those would be strange words for Paul to say, if "heaven is what our lives turn into when we repent of our sin."
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I don't think heaven is a physical place. I think heaven is peace of mind.
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I think a surprise awaits those who repent of their sin:
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV
"But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27 RSV
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Tutorman
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Of course. We were never promised a rose garden or an easy life, just salvation. The road to life is narrow and difficult and the road to perdition is wide and easy
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fhansen
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Heaven is beyond anything we can possibly imagine. The presence of God is what makes heaven heavenly-and sin stands between ourselves and our ability to "see" God. In fact, to the extent that we're still attracted to sin, we probably don't even really want to see Him.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." Matt 5:8
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God." Matt 5:8
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So, the
So, are you saying the apostles including Paul hadn't successfully repented of their sin? Or were you just ignoring the Scripture and examples I shared?
So, are you saying the apostles including Paul hadn't successfully repented of their sin? Or were you just ignoring the Scripture and examples I shared?
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I believe the reason God is great is that he has created a paradise. Perhaps you have overlooked a sin.
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Paul and the Apostles were on their own life journeys. We can exchange Scriptures till the cows come home. It's easier just to repent.
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I agree. It is easier for you to repent. Start by being honest with yourself. If you could exchange Scriptures, you would. You can't, so you don't. Instead, you just make claims you can't back up.
If "heaven" is all in your heart and head, then you can make your own god--like the shackian god that Young creates; because who you design doesn't have to be in concert with the only True and Living God described in what we call the New Testament.
Again, as a simple--and yet ignored by you multiple times--example: Paul clearly repented of his sin. And, it is hard for anyone to justify that Paul wasn't wholly dedicated to God after his encounter with Jesus Christ. Yet, Paul clearly taught there was something more that he was looking forward to. If he "came into heaven" when he repented, then why did he look for something greater--as Paul clearly believed that it was better for Him to be somewhere else. (Phil 1:23-24, for example). If in heaven there is no more suffering, then why did Paul have to complain to God about a thorn in his flesh, if he was already in heaven? Was "the heaven" you would claim Paul received just not good enough and he was only vainly hoping for more?
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Paul's final words to the Ephesus elders are in Acts 20:19-31, including: "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:30) Paul was also concerned about rightly dividing the Truth (2 Tim 2:15).
If "The kingdom of God is within you" was meant the way you and dreadnought use it, then why is there so much in the New Testament about a place? Consider who Jesus was talking to when He spoke Luke 17:21--He was talking to the pharisees who were challenging Him. Read the rest of the chapter (Luke 17:22-37): "Then He said unto the disciples...." If heaven is within us, how does 1 Thes 4:13-17 make any sense? What about the 1 Cor 15:13-58? What about Rev 6:9-11? What are the martyrs waiting for, if they were already in heaven before they died on earth? What is the purpose of John sharing Revelation, especially Rev 20:10-15 and Rev 21:1-8, if heaven is achieved when you repent of your sins? Why would Jesus even have to speak to the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3? Worse, why would He only make promises to those who overcame--if upon repentance everyone had already achieved heaven in their mind?
In short, I would challenge you to re-examine your understanding of what Jesus meant in Luke 17:21.
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