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heaven when we die or resurection from the dead at the last day.????

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BULWARK, Apr 21, 2002.

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____The problem with this post is you are either misinformed or deliberately presenting false information. Greek most definitely had and has punctuation. The period and the comma are the same as in English. Greek uses what appears to be a semicolon ";" as a question mark. A raised period functions as either a colon or semicolon. "An Introduction to New Testament Greek Grammar" R. A. Martin, Union-Hoermann Press, 1978, p. 3. And in Luke 23:42, the manuscript evidence places the comma exactly where it is shown in our English Bibles.
     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____Where does the Bible state this? I'm also a Baptist minister and I am not familiar with this.
    _____When Jesus said "into your hands I commend my spirit" that is exactly what He meant. That is how those present would have understood it. If he had intended to say "I trust you Father and your power as you send me into Hell as you have said you would.", that or something very close to that is exactly what He would have said. He didn't say it for God's account. God knew the heart of Jesus. Jesus spoke aloud for those present and He spoke for them to understand. What did they hear and understand?
     
  3. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Or rather kern , jesus apeared to mary 3 days later and said ,"I have not yet asended to my father". Jesus spent 3 days in the grave while the thief died so it would mean that either scritpure contradicts or what you have said about the greek is true because I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation.

    I agree that we don`t have immortal souls but we wait for the resurection of the dead and if Jesus hadn`t of risen from the dead then we all would have perished in the grave.

    as for heaven and hell , well , that is greek mythology mixed with other things.

    hades in greek myth was the underworld were there was a place under the earth ruled by gods. this concept has been adopted by christianity only we call it hell instead of hades and satan instead of the gods that were of the underworld from greek and egyptian myth.

    heaven is also a concept adopted from greek myth and this is the main reason alot of apocraphal books are regected , because of obviouse greek influance on the writers between 200 BC and 100 AD.

    books like enoch and others.
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____Absolutely amazing. I quoted a renowned Greek language resource, R. A. Martin, proving Biblical Greek did in fact use commas, periods, colons/smeicolons, and question marks. And you went blasting right along, "I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation." as if nothing happened.
    _____What is your source for all these so-called myths that Christianity was supposedly copied from? Name a few books and authors. Quote some actual evidence. Have you ever read the Old Testament? You will find that is the source of much of Christianity. But you are free to ignore factual information, such as I posted, and believe anything you want to. What kind of koolaid do you drink?
     
  5. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Old Sheppard, you would be surprised about what I not only have read in the old testament but also what I have read in the apocrypha and non canon books not to mention the understanding of ancient Mesopotamian mythology and history , so I would have absolutely no problem addressing your post if you can tell me what BULWAR meant hear with a good manner , as I have no intention off arguing about it..

    I did not mean to offend you Sheppard, I am sorry if I overlooked your post but either way you need not get offended brother..


    This is a quote from BULWARK in the first page.

    I fully understand this post but I would be open to what you think about what BULWARK is saying hear.

    Then I will be glad to address your last post once we are on peaceful terms Sheppard.

    Celtic.
     
  6. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    "never read the old testament hay Sheppard. who , you or me :D :D :D


    Old shep , Pay special attention to the word "sleep".


    there are scriptures that look like there is life straight after death but
    they can be explained and they are far out weighed with the resurrection of
    the dead being the hope of Christianity. The promise is That we wont perish
    but have eternal life through the resurrection.

    It was believed in the old testament too. Hear is just old testament
    scriptures.

    Genesis 3:19
    In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the
    ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust
    shalt thou return.

    Everyone loves to say ,"yea , that's just the body that goes to dust. The
    thing is , the scripture doesn`t go on to say he receives our soul , it says
    that he receives our spirit which is simply the omnipresent breath of life.

    Job 7:21
    And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity?
    for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning,
    but I shall not be.

    why would jobs say to god , that god wont find him because he would be dead.
    If he would have been with god.

    Job 17
    15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
    16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in
    the dust.

    Job 34:15
    All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

    Psalm 104:29
    Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they
    die, and return to their dust.

    Ecclesiastes 3:20
    All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall
    return unto God who gave it.

    The spirit is not the soul of a man but rather the breath of life that god
    puts in a body and that creates a living soul.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his
    nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    I will explain the diffrence between the spirit and the soul in another
    email.

    Isaiah 26:19
    Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake
    and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the
    earth shall cast out the dead.

    Daniel 12:2
    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
    everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Deuteronomy 31:16
    And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

    2 Samuel 7:12
    And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I
    will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and
    I will establish his kingdom.

    Job 14:12
    So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall
    not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

    Psalm 13:3
    Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the
    sleep of death;


    I thaught I would throw this in as well as that one about not raising untill the new heaven and earth.

    It is new testament but I put it hear for those that believe the myth that jesus went into the underworld and freed the spirits there.(which is purely greek and eygptian mythology)

    This one in acts is way after jesus resurrection so jesus didn`t take david
    with him.

    Acts 2:34
    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord
    said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
    (That was after the resurrection.)

    peace

    Celtic :wave:
     
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    1. I am not offended.
    2. Had I wanted to respond to Bulwarks post I would have done so. It is the typical laundry list of verses, which seem to support a particular view, and which in many cases ignores the immediate context of the verse and omits and ignores other verses which do not.
    3. Bulwark’s list and your subsequent list were answered on another thread. I see very little I can add to that response. See link below.
    4. You appear to be the one easily offended. I have said nothing offensive. I made statements of fact. And asked you for your alleged mythological sources for Christian beliefs. Why does that offend you?

    http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16046
     
  8. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Crusader and Bulwark,
    _____Here is an article I copied from the ISBE. Which discusses the Biblical (O.T.& N.T.) doctrine of the resurrection. It references most, if not all, of the applicable scriptures. This article also addresses the often made charges that the Bible, Judaism, and/or Christianity were copied from pagan religions, with documentation from historical sources.

    To Be Continued
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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  10. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Old sheppard,
    That is a long list and I will read it and think about it but I didn`t have to look very far to see that what I believe is on the right track.

    I don`t normaly trust other peoples studys until I have studyed from my own sources as well because I find most people will twist things to suite what they believe , so the answers are not as simple as reading someone elses artical.

    I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone elses study hear on this subject. I for one have studied it myself and not taken what others say without thourouly checking there source and understanding were they went wrong or if they are right.


    this is what I got within 5 mins of looking up the encarta encyclopedia;

    HADES;

    in Greek mythology, god of the dead. He was the son of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. When the three brothers divided up the universe after they had deposed their father, Cronus, Hades was awarded the underworld. There, with his queen, Persephone, whom he had abducted from the world above, he ruled the kingdom of the dead
    The underworld itself was often called Hades. It was divided into two regions: Erebus, where the dead pass as soon as they die, and Tartarus, the deeper region, where the Titans had been imprisoned. It was a dim and unhappy place, inhabited by vague forms and shadows and guarded by Cerberus, the three-headed, dragon-tailed dog. Sinister rivers separated the underworld from the world above.




    the underworld;

    Osiris, in Egyptian mythology, one of the principal deities. Originally the local god of Abydos and Busiris, Osiris, who represented the male productive force in nature, became identified with the setting sun. Thus he was regarded as the ruler of the realm of the dead in the mysterious region below the western horizon. Osiris lived on in the underworld as the ruler of the dead.

    NOW HEAVEN;

    The Book of the Dead also contains instructions for proper conduct before these judges. If the judges decided the deceased had been a sinner, the ka was condemned to hunger and thirst or to be torn to pieces by horrible executioners. If the decision was favorable, the ka went to the heavenly realm of the fields of Yaru, where grain grew 3.7 m (12 ft) high and existence was a glorified version of life on earth. All the necessities for this paradisiacal existence, from furniture to reading matter, were, therefore, put into the tombs.




    GREEK MYTH;

    (Thessalia), as their home. On Olympus, the gods formed a society that ranked them in terms of authority and powers. However, the gods could roam freely, and individual gods became associated with three main domains-the sky or heaven, the sea, and earth. The 12 chief gods, usually called the Olympians, were Zeus, Hera, Hephaestus, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hestia, Hermes, Demeter, and Poseidon.
    Zeus was the head of the gods, and the spiritual father of gods and people. His wife, Hera, was the queen of heaven and the guardian of marriage. Other gods associated with heaven were Hephaestus, god of fire and metalworkers; Athena, goddess of wisdom and war; and Apollo, god of light, poetry, and music. Artemis, goddess of wildlife and the moon; Ares, god of war; and Aphrodite, goddess of love, were other gods of heaven. They were joined by Hestia, goddess of the hearth; and Hermes, messenger of the gods and ruler of science and invention.





    well , that took all of 5 mins and all I keep seeing is exactly what I said.

    I see christianity right through these encyclopedia cuts and that is a huge concern to me.

    the three brothers dividing the universe up (the trinity born in 325 AD)

    The three teared world that was taught to christians through the dark age and there was persucution for any one daring to think the world was round and hell a simple myth along with heaven.

    The Jews in the time of 200 bc to 100 ad were under mass greek influance.

    look at this cut from the encarta old sheppard.


    Antiochus IV, called Epiphanes ("the illustrious") (215?-164 BC), king of Syria (175-164BC), son of Antiochus III. From 171 to 168BC, he was involved in a war against Egypt, defeating two Egyptian kings, Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VIII. He captured Jerusalem, prohibited Judaism, and tried to establish the worship of Greek gods. Under the leadership of the Jewish priest Mattathias (died c. 167 BC) and his sons, the Maccabees, the Jews revolted (168-160 BC) and drove Antiochus from Jerusalem. Later he won victories over the Armenians and Persians.



    "Antiochus IV," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


    Most of the christianity we have from the earliest time was influanced by the books of enoch and many other apocraphal books written around the time of antiochus and then the maccabeean kings to try to counteract the huge influances of greek mythology with Ideas of angels coming and taking wives like greek gods and then holy angels overthrowing the greek gods (fallen angels in hebrew myth and Titans in greek myth) and binding them all to hades for judgment in the end.

    That all comes from Enoch Who missquotes genesis over and over to establish a new Jewish faith established on the infiltration of paganisim.

    this was always the hebrews problem and they were always getting into trouble for being influanced by other gods and nothing changed or has changed today. God is still not happy about the fact that christians and learnered bible students can`t realy agree on much of what the bible says at all as a result of pagan influance.

    thats why we needed the reformation and that is why god is going to keep raising up people to tair down these false pagan consepts picked up by christianity.

    it is a shame when we can no longer find established truth because there has become so many ways of seeing it.

    I see for my self what the bible says , but it says something diffrent to someone else who knows the scriptures just as good and then againg by someone else which explains the thousands of diffrent sects all claiming they follow the bible so I think the church will in the end , have no other choice but to return to being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of what some preacher believes or some article says or even the bible on certain issues I would say it is wiser to listen to the holy ghost.


    but hey , thats my opinion.

    peace

    celtic :)
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____”I don`t normaly trust other peoples studys. . .” Except for the guru of whatever group you happen to belong to at the present time, which you have posted here. And you are willing to swallow anything you find in a secular, anti-Christian publication, Encarta, which promotes new age and secular humanism, without bothering to verify it with any other source.
    _____Keep wondering. I have been a believer since 6 months before the 6 day war. I’m guessing that is about 10 years before you were born. I have 8 years education above High School, 4 in a major Theological school. In my own personal library I have the following Biblical resources, among many others, And I am prepared to respond, rebut, and refute any anti-Christian, anti-N.T., falsehood you care to post.
    • Brown-Driver-Briggs, Hebrew/English Lexicon of the O.T.
    • Theological Word Book of the O.T., two volumes.
    • Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker, Greek/English Lexicon of the N.T.
    • Theological Dictionary of the N.T.
    • International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
    • John Gill’s, Commentary on the Whole Bible.
    • Thayer’s, Greek Lexicon
    • A.T. Robertson’s, Word Pictures in the New Testament, six volumes.

    _____Robertson taught N.T. Greek at the post graduate level for 46 years. Wrote forty books on the Greek language and the N.T. Wrote a 1200 page Greek grammar of the N.T. which took 26 years to complete and the “Word Pictures”
    _____Except for the name hades. I see nothing that is the same or similar to any O.T./N.T. concept of hell. All your quotes are from only one source and do not cite or reference any other recognized historical sources. I removed Encarta from my computer because it is blatantly anti-Christian and promotes new age and secular humanism.
    _____Again no similarities. No proof that anything in Christianity was copied from or influenced by pagan beliefs. Even if some similarity could be shown, similarity is not proof. For example, in your country there is a living creature, which has webbed feet like a duck, has a bill like a duck, swims in the water like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, but it is not a duck, it is not even a fowl. It is a marsupial, an animal called a Platypus. All those similarities does not make it a duck or anything close to a duck! And since this similar to a duck creature has existed far, far longer than any pagan legend you can quote you will have to do better that simply a few similarities.
    _____Again no similarity with any Christian practices/beliefs. Absolutely no proof that anything in Christianity was copied from/influenced by these pagan beliefs about heaven!
    _____Once again, no similarities, no proof. “three main domains. . . The 12 chief gods. . .” There is nothing in Christianity like that! Let me explain what I, as a scholar, expect to see, one or more quotes from your source stating a particular belief or practice compared to one or more quotes from the Bible which are the same or very similar to your source. Then some documentation where, when, how, by whom, the Biblical belief/practice was copied from the pagan source.
    _____Of course, you keep seeing exactly what your current guru tells you to see, what you want to see. But what you do not see is the first piece of credible evidence of anything. What is of great concern to me are people who post long mindless attacks against Christianity and/or the N.T. without any proof of their allegations.
    _____There are several things wrong with this. How does a Greek legend about three deities allegedly dividing the universe become the Trinity, the belief that One God, has manifested Himself to humanity as a Triunity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The only similarity is the number three. Are you saying just because they both mention the number three they are supposed to be the same or what?
    _____You bring up the blatant falsehood that the Trinity was “born” in 325 AD. This is a perennial favorite of the anti-Christian, anti-N.T. crowd. I assume you are referring to the Nicaean council which convened in May 325. The Trinity was never mentioned at Nicaea or in any of the decisions issued by the council! Since you are quoting from Encarta, look that up. I think Encarta finally got one right, the Nicaean council met to address the Arian heresy, that Jesus was a created being. And they also discussed the date of Easter. Nothing about the Trinity!
    _____Here is a link to the writings of Theophilus, one of the early church fathers, 115-182 AD. He used the term Trinity, referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the year 168 AD, one hundred fifty seven years before Niacaea! None of the anti-Christian, anti-N.T. gurus tell their followers that. They don’t want their blind little sheep to know that the early church was Trinitarian from the very first.

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-42.htm#P1469_430289

    _____In American law, this is, “assuming facts not in evidence.” I have never heard of a three tiered world in Christianity. You have not presented any evidence/proof that anyone other than the ancient Greeks believed in a three tiered “universe”, not” world. You appear to be twisting what you yourself posted to try to make it say something different. Below is a link to all the writings of the early church, 38 volumes. There is a search engine at the top of the home page, please feel free to search these writings and provide proof/evidence of this teaching. Don’t believe me, but it isn’t there. More false anti-Christian teachings from a phony guru.

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

    _____ Please read the second sentence of your own post. “He. . . tried to establish the worship of Greek gods.” ”Tried” means he failed! The major influence of Judaism and Christianity from 33 to 100 AD, and beyond, was Roman, not Greek. One quote from a single secular source does not prove mass anything.
    _____This statement is contradictory. If the books of Enoch, etc. were written to counteract which means “to act directly against; check, neutralize, or undo the effect of with opposing action”, the influence of Greek mythology, i.e. paganism, how could Judaism and Christianity be influenced toward paganism by books which oppose that very thing?
    _____These undocumented, unsupported opinions are all well and good but you haven’t offered the first bit of evidence that Christianity was influenced by Enoch or anything else. Quote from Enoch then compare it to the Bible and then prove that one was copied from/influenced by the other. You haven’t done any of that. BTW there are no angels, fallen or otherwise, taking wives in the O.T. or N.T.! And there are certainly no angels, holy or otherwise, overthrowing greek gods.
    _____You haven’t proved that Enoch quotes or misquotes anything. You saying it, does not make it so. Post a quote from Enoch which you claim misquotes Genesis. And so what if Enoch did misquote Genesis, where is any proof that, what ever Enoch may have said was of pagan origin and had any affect on Judaism or Christianity?
    (To Be Continued)
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____And if you read your O.T. you will find that God dealt harshly with Israel, every time they went astray. But in every age he had faithful servants who had not bowed the knee to pagan deities.

    1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

    Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    _____When did God authorize you to speak for Him about what He is or is not happy about? Most of the disagreement is from people who know only a handful of “proof texts” which seem to prove their doctrine, not “learned bible students”, people who can read the original languages themselves and know when some false teacher is wresting the scriptures.
    _____You are still presuming to speak for God about what He is or is not doing or going to do. And you still haven’t shown any proof/evidence of any pagan concepts picked up by Christianity
    _____Maybe you do, but I don’t have any problem finding the truth. I read both Biblical languages and I find that most false, anti-Christian, teachings, like yours, are by people who couldn’t parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb, i.e. read and understand the original languages, if someone put a gun to their head.
    _____I assume you mean you see for yourself what a few selected “proof texts” in your favorite English translation of the Bible says, as influenced by the teachings of your current guru. Yes, there are many sects and cults claiming to follow the Bible. If you look closely you will find that many of them, their leader’s interpretation of the Bible often involves sex, money, or power for that leader. For example, the two most notorious of recent times, Jim Jones and David Koresh, both required their followers to turn over all their possessions to the group, i.e. the leader, and both had sex with many of their female followers.
    “I think the church will in the end , have no other choice but to return to being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of what some preacher believes or some article says” Which means that you think the church should follow you and/or your guru because you, like every sect and cult before you, are convinced that your elite little group, alone, has the truth and every other church/denomination for the last, almost, 2000 years has been wrong.
    _____”being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of the bible on certain issues. . .I would say it is wiser to listen to the holy ghost.” A sure fire recipe for disaster. That is what every sect and cult leader in the world has said, “The Holy spirit spoke die-rectly to me and told me blah, blah, blah. Follow me! I am the one, all those other guys are wrong. Don’t read your Bible I will tell you what to believe.
    _____The Bible is God’s word. God said it would not return to Him void. Jesus said His words would not pass away. But you are saying that whatever you think the Holy Spirit might be saying to you is more authoritative that God’s word. No thank you. I have seen a too many false teachers ruin too many people and get too many people killed with that same poison.

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    _____Is God capable of doing what He says in this verse? Or are you right and this verse wrong? You claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, are going to correct the Bible where it is wrong?

    Mt 16:18 . . . upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    _____Is this statement by Jesus wrong? Did the gates of hell prevail against the church that Jesus Himself built upon the rock, and only you, along with the Holy Spirit, are capable of restoring His church, because it does not exist today?

    Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mr 13:31, Lu 21:33)


    _____Is Jesus wrong? Is the Bible corrupted and unreliable and only you, and your guru and his followers, know which parts are true and which false? Koolaid anyone?

    _____You are absolutely right, that is nothing but your opinion. You have not presented any credible evidence, whatsoever, of pagan influence in Christianity or Judaism!

    _____Here is an example of what I mean by quoting proof. Here is a verse from the O.T., Hab 2:4, and a verse from the N.T., Rom 1:17, that I claim was influenced by or copied from the O.T. verse. Are these verses similar or the same? I might be wrong but there is a phrase in these two verses that is virtually identical, “the just shall live by his faith.” and “The just shall live by faith.” Do you have any proof like that?

    Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
     
  13. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    I read all of two of your first two points sheppard and in both , your foolish presumptions were extreamly wrong.

    I have one lord and one faith and one baptisim and one father who is above all and knows all, he even knows how old I am :D :p which is much older than your foolish presumptions.I can make a presumption of my own and say I would know more about the nation of Isreal that you will ever dream of knowing , thanks be to god.

    Your aproch is very tactless for someone claiming to be of the holy ghost so I think I will stop at the first two foolish presumptions and forget this conversation with you sir as Im not hear to talk to trouble makers.
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____Tactless? Oh now I've gone and hurt his feelings and after he insulted me in his response presuming that I didn't know what I was doing and was only following someone else's teachings. Notice how people who like to insult other people can't take the heat. But it is a good excuse to get out of answering all the false information I pointed out in his previous post.
    _____What does knowledge about the Nation of Israel have to do with One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Father, or salvation?
     
  15. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    And that is you being nice :p

    I would be more than happy to talk about any subject with you if you wern`t always on the attack , throwing cridentials aroundlike it means anything???? claiming you know what your on about so that gives you the right to act with irational hostility.

    I apoligise if I reacted with offence , your approuch is very hostile bro , what do you want me to do hear shep ,fight with you????


    The mention of Isreal had about as much relivence as you mentioning Isreal and the 67 war , "nothing at all." :)

    Shep , I find that there is alot of diffrent christian sects and doctrines. Wouldn`t you agree with me on this mate?? I also find that it would be unrealistic in todays invironment to start claiming that your theology is so right that god wants you to use it to tare down other christians who have beliefs that are a bit diffrent.


    I don`t want to fight with you , I would rather debate the issue mate with mutual respect for each other.

    there realy isn`t any need for this type of discusion is there???

    I hope you see were I am coming from

    Celtic.
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____What about this post do you find so offensive? “Absolutely amazing? Actually as I think about it the word should be “incredulous.” I assume when someone posts information from a recognized Greek language source, in a discussion about Greek punctuation, that the parties to that discussion, who (again this is only an assumption) are looking for the truth, would read it. The next sentence is simply a statement of fact. I quoted your exact words. I could have said “continued. . .as if nothing happened.” Were you offended by the word blasting? So once again what do you find so offensive about my post?
    _____
    _____Normally I don’t mention my education but if you will read your post you implied that I did not know what I was doing and was blindly following someone else’s doctrine. Under those circumstance I think it prudent to give a little of my background.
    _____Actually if you will read my post you will see that my mention of the ’67 war was, in fact relevant, it was part of my response to your suggestion that I didn’t know what I was doing. It means that I am not some spring chicken that has only recently come to the faith and don’t know very much.
    _____I have said nothing about my Theology. If someone is publicly expounding beliefs which contradict the scriptures then Christians have the moral duty to oppose those beliefs lest the unsuspecting be misled into eternal damnation. Any beliefs which rely on blatantly false information also fall into this category.
    _____Fair enough. You have posted information in support of your beliefs. I have challenged that information. Let’s discuss.
    _____See below. Copied from Encarta online. The Trinity did not originate with the Nicaean council, in 325 AD!
     
  17. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Old Sheppard,
    From my understanding of the times (and I am not an ignorant historian) it was a time were Christianity was split between the Arian belief and what is today known as the trinity.

    I can’t really see how this artily says that the trinity wasn’t disputed at the nicean council because I am under the impression that it was what the whole council was set up to determine or dispute.

    I am a little confused as to the relevance of this , to what we have talked about, although it is an interesting subject that I would love to discuss with you.

    I must say though Sheppard, I am also of the understanding that there are hundreds of Christian sects all with there version of what the bible means, so it doesn’t really mean anything to me when someone says things like this; "


    It is sought of an irrelevant statement to me Sheppard on the grounds that we all have been arguing since the first century about what is true bible understanding. So how can someone in the year 2000 think there doctrine is right because I have never met two Christians that believe the bible the same way unless they were in the same bible class or a cult?

    So how can you as an individual be so shore that you are right Sheppard considering there are learnered people like us that disagree on what is what in both scripture and history. Be careful of presumption brother and I will watch my approach as well. I do not mind having my beliefs tested at any level, that is how I learn most of the time. I am quickly tired of presumption though. When I come across presumption, I usually just say,"Ok, we will agree to disagree". There is very little that can be discussed with the spirit of presumption , so lets both see that and meet on mutual turf and test our understanding of things but don’t tell me that you are right and I am wrong , please, because that presumptuousness just makes me want to give up on any type of challenge to attain to the real truth. I am really not interested in your truth but rather the truth. If you have "some " truth, then I am shore I will enjoy discussing it with you.

    Few, :) so, lets talk about the nicean council and Arianism and the trinity dispute. I would be interested to hear why you don’t think the trinity was used at the nicean council to combat Arianism????

    I can act as the student if you wish but I am a very curious student so I hope you can teach Sheppard, could you explain this in your own words because cuts from what others say don’t do to much unless it is to make a point I suppose. Bible scripture is always welcomed as evidence though.

    I do understand history well so you don’t need to worry about the articles, I read allot of them myself before. I am obviously not as versed in Greek as you Shepard but I think you miss understood my first post in the sense that I hadn’t read your post.

    Celtic. :)
     
  18. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    _____What is the source of your understanding of the times, I assume you mean 325 AD when the Nicaean council was convened? And no, Christianity was not split, one bishop, Arius, and a few of his followers were beginning to cause trouble spreading the false teaching that Jesus was not deity but was a created being.
    _____Note, this heretical teaching did not appear until after 313 AD. and was dealt with by a council of church bishops in 325 AD.
    _____What is the source of your impression? I quoted from the same Encarta that you quoted and the article said that the primary subject of the Nicaean council was the nature of Jesus. Do you see the mention of Trinity in the article I posted,, anywhere? Please search your Encarta or any other source you care to and see if the word Trinity appears anywhere associated with the Nicaean council? I am interested in factual information not what you think or suppose
    _____Here is a gross contradiction in your argument. In your earlier post you said that, “the Trinity was born” in 325 AD. Here you are saying that it was disputed at the council.
    _____If you are confused then why did you bring up the idea that the Trinity was born in 325 AD or all those quotes which you claim prove Christianity was copied from pagan religions but don’t prove anything?
    _____Well actually the greatest majority of those so-called hundreds of Christian sects are irrelevant. There are any number of deluded people who decide they are the only person in the world who can correctly interpret the Bible and convince some group of people to follow him. For example, Jim Jones had about 1000 followers. David Koresh had about 100. Now if you want to discuss the mainline denominations, e.g. Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, etc. they differ mainly over church government and peripheral non-salvation issues.
    _____Your statement is irrelevant. The fact that some Christians disagree over minor issues has no bearing on this discussion. You will find that most of the arguing arises from the fact that someone who does not know their Bible, does not know the original languages, and does not know church history, quoting Biblical passages out of context, invent their own religion.
    _____The way that someone can know that their beliefs are scriptural is to become as knowledgeable of those scriptures as possible, by learning the original languages, and by studying the history of the early church.
    _____You speak a lot about presumption when you are the one that has presumed something about me without any evidence, “I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone elses study hear on this subject.” You presumed that I didn’t know what I was doing and was simply following someone else’s teaching. What you falsely called presumption on my part was making a statement of fact and quoting your exact words. I see more presumption on your part. “don’t tell me that you are right and I am wrong” Show where I have ever said that. What I said and will say again if it occurs, your information is false. Not only presumptuousness but also insults, you called me foolish twice and irrational once.
    _____This is another contradiction. How could the Trinity be used at the Nicaean council to combat Arianism, if it was supposedly born at that council. And you have never addressed my reference to Theophilus using the term Trinity in the year 168 AD, 157 years before Nicaea, when you claimed it was born in 325 AD. According to the source that I quoted, Encarta, the term Trinity was never mentioned at the Nicaean council is that good enough? Or how about the Encyclopedia Brittanica?
    _____A Trinity requires three. The term Trinity nor the relationship of the Holy Spirit was ever mentioned at Nicaea!
    _____Well now that is going to be kind of hard to do isn’t it, since the Nicaean council and the Arian heresy are not mentioned in the Bible? I was not alive in 325 AD so I can’t very well tell you anything about it without quoting from relevant historical sources. Isn’t it hypocritical for you to post 5-6 quotes from Encarta but now you don’t want to see quotes from the sources I might refer to?
    _____When you were quoting Encarta that was certainly not Bible scripture. Also I notice that you haven’t responded to my questions on all those Encarta quotes. You were supposedly showing how Christianity was copied from pagan religions. But I asked you to show me quotes from pagan sources and the Bible that are similar or the same. You said the Christianity was copied I would like to see the proof.
    _____I have explained my post on the Greek language twice and I have not seen you make any attempt to correct your interpretation of Luke 23:43 based on your presumption that Biblical Greek did not have any punctuation.
    Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    _____And I said that all the manuscript evidence places the comma exactly where it appears in all but one English version, between “thee” and “To day.” Jesus is very clearly telling the crucified criminal that he, the criminal, would be in Paradise with Jesus that day. This interpretation does not rely on the placement of a comma. The Greek of the passage would have to be changed completely to make it say, “I say to you To day, that you will be with me in paradise (at some unspecified time in the future).
     
  19. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

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    Posted by El Codger
    This is not presumption shep, I said, "I AM WONDERING”, that is not presumption but rather a curiosity witch was apparent because you didn’t ever seem to explain your self??

    This is presumption Sheppard;

    That is presumption. You are so shore of your self that you speak as though you were there????


    Now, you say that Arius was one bishop with small influence. That is not how I see it and I think you are wrong. At least I speak from personal opinion, were as you speak as though you are god.

    If arius were such a small influence, how come they had to hold a council in nicea in 325 ad because of the spread of arianisum??? You say that the trinity is the true doctrine but then you say it wasn’t even the trinity godhead they used to defend the faith against Arianism, then what godhead did they use????

    Arius had his belief spread all the way through the Eastern Church. How can you say he was such a small influence when Rome spent 300 yrs after the council, wiping the Arians out?

    Hear is presumption for you Sheppard, "YOU ARE WRONG".


    Yea, I might add to shep, you explained it very unconvincingly, so why would I take your word for it?? Why don’t you get out the Greek bible and show me so I have something to believe because if you are right, then answer my question that I mentioned;

    If Jesus said to marry on the day he rose, "don’t touch me because I haven’t ascended to my father". Then, how come he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise that day????????????????????????????????


    As for different denominations and the slight difference of beliefs, well, as usual, I totally disagree with you hear again Sheppard, you even failed to mention the Roman Catholic Church, which takes up the majority of all Christian denominations. They are the oldest and most established as far as scripture and knowledge goes. SO SHOULD WE BELIEVE THE ROMAN CATHOLICS BECAUSE OF THIS????

    I don’t agree that the main denominations are similar at all. It seems like these are just the denominations you approve of because personally, they are extremely religious Christian sects to me, the ones you mentioned.

    Sorry for disagreeing hear so much on everything Sheppard, now if you were god, then your presumption would probably have a little more influence but you understand that I can’t just take your word for it because that is what you recon, shortly you see that mate.

    Celtic.
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Wrong! I speak as someone who has read a great deal about the subject and who posted articles from three different encyclopedias to support what I said
    Well let me ask you again, I have already a few times. Where do you get your information on this. How can you “see it” unless you were there. If you think I am wrong then post some evidence to prove it. About Arius, I posted three separate encyclopedia, article all of which agree. And you haven’t bothered to read them. All you are capable of doing is telling me what you think, and your opinion and insulting me. No I don’t speak as though I was god. I speak as though I have studied the subject.
    Read the articles I posted or look up the history which was written by people who were there. Eusebius and Lactantius for example. They were historians, they were at the Nicaean council and they wrote down what happened.
    False Arius only had a few followers. I can say what the histories say. All you can say is what your cult guru has told you. So far all you have said is what you think, your opinion.
    People have been telling me that for years and none of them can prove anything. All you can do is screech and scream, point fingers, and call names.
     
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