heaven when we die or resurection from the dead at the last day.????

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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by kern
Since there is no punctuation in Greek, how do we know that Jesus did not say "Truly I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise"? I have seen people make this argument but I'm not versed in Greek well enough to know if this can be decided definitively from the Greek.

-Chris
_____The problem with this post is you are either misinformed or deliberately presenting false information. Greek most definitely had and has punctuation. The period and the comma are the same as in English. Greek uses what appears to be a semicolon ";" as a question mark. A raised period functions as either a colon or semicolon. "An Introduction to New Testament Greek Grammar" R. A. Martin, Union-Hoermann Press, 1978, p. 3. And in Luke 23:42, the manuscript evidence places the comma exactly where it is shown in our English Bibles.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by Baptist Preacher
When He said "into your hands I commend my spirit" he wasn't saying "into your hands in heaven" he was only saying, I trust you Father and your power as you send me into Hell as you have said you would. He had already stated he would go to hell for 3 days.
_____Where does the Bible state this? I'm also a Baptist minister and I am not familiar with this.
_____When Jesus said "into your hands I commend my spirit" that is exactly what He meant. That is how those present would have understood it. If he had intended to say "I trust you Father and your power as you send me into Hell as you have said you would.", that or something very close to that is exactly what He would have said. He didn't say it for God's account. God knew the heart of Jesus. Jesus spoke aloud for those present and He spoke for them to understand. What did they hear and understand?
 
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celtic_crusader

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Since there is no punctuation in Greek, how do we know that Jesus did not say "Truly I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise"? I have seen people make this argument but I'm not versed in Greek well enough to know if this can be decided definitively from the Greek.

Or rather kern , jesus apeared to mary 3 days later and said ,"I have not yet asended to my father". Jesus spent 3 days in the grave while the thief died so it would mean that either scritpure contradicts or what you have said about the greek is true because I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation.

I agree that we don`t have immortal souls but we wait for the resurection of the dead and if Jesus hadn`t of risen from the dead then we all would have perished in the grave.

as for heaven and hell , well , that is greek mythology mixed with other things.

hades in greek myth was the underworld were there was a place under the earth ruled by gods. this concept has been adopted by christianity only we call it hell instead of hades and satan instead of the gods that were of the underworld from greek and egyptian myth.

heaven is also a concept adopted from greek myth and this is the main reason alot of apocraphal books are regected , because of obviouse greek influance on the writers between 200 BC and 100 AD.

books like enoch and others.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by celtic_crusader

Or rather kern , jesus apeared to mary 3 days later and said ,"I have not yet asended to my father". Jesus spent 3 days in the grave while the thief died so it would mean that either scritpure contradicts or what you have said about the greek is true because I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation.

I agree that we don`t have immortal souls but we wait for the resurection of the dead and if Jesus hadn`t of risen from the dead then we all would have perished in the grave.

as for heaven and hell , well , that is greek mythology mixed with other things.

hades in greek myth was the underworld were there was a place under the earth ruled by gods. this concept has been adopted by christianity only we call it hell instead of hades and satan instead of the gods that were of the underworld from greek and egyptian myth.

heaven is also a concept adopted from greek myth and this is the main reason alot of apocraphal books are regected , because of obviouse greek influance on the writers between 200 BC and 100 AD.

books like enoch and others.
_____Absolutely amazing. I quoted a renowned Greek language resource, R. A. Martin, proving Biblical Greek did in fact use commas, periods, colons/smeicolons, and question marks. And you went blasting right along, "I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation." as if nothing happened.
_____What is your source for all these so-called myths that Christianity was supposedly copied from? Name a few books and authors. Quote some actual evidence. Have you ever read the Old Testament? You will find that is the source of much of Christianity. But you are free to ignore factual information, such as I posted, and believe anything you want to. What kind of koolaid do you drink?
 
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celtic_crusader

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Old Sheppard, you would be surprised about what I not only have read in the old testament but also what I have read in the apocrypha and non canon books not to mention the understanding of ancient Mesopotamian mythology and history , so I would have absolutely no problem addressing your post if you can tell me what BULWAR meant hear with a good manner , as I have no intention off arguing about it..

I did not mean to offend you Sheppard, I am sorry if I overlooked your post but either way you need not get offended brother..


This is a quote from BULWARK in the first page.

It is interesting that because Stephen asked god to receive his spirit that it would mean that Stephen went to heaven???

Think about this;

Jesus also said this to god as he died.

Luke 23:46 into thy hands I commend my spirit.

Then he went into the tomb for 3 days and rose on the third and when marry came to him, he said to her," don’t touch me marry, because I have not yet ascended up to my father.

So then, if Jesus soul didn’t go to heaven for three days, what did he mean by saying, "father, into thy hands I comment my spirit".

This is exactly what Stephen said because it was a tradition for early Christians to say that as Jesus did before they were martyred.

I fully understand this post but I would be open to what you think about what BULWARK is saying hear.

Then I will be glad to address your last post once we are on peaceful terms Sheppard.

Celtic.
 
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celtic_crusader

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"never read the old testament hay Sheppard. who , you or me :D :D :D


Old shep , Pay special attention to the word "sleep".


there are scriptures that look like there is life straight after death but
they can be explained and they are far out weighed with the resurrection of
the dead being the hope of Christianity. The promise is That we wont perish
but have eternal life through the resurrection.

It was believed in the old testament too. Hear is just old testament
scriptures.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the
ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust
shalt thou return.

Everyone loves to say ,"yea , that's just the body that goes to dust. The
thing is , the scripture doesn`t go on to say he receives our soul , it says
that he receives our spirit which is simply the omnipresent breath of life.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity?
for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning,
but I shall not be.

why would jobs say to god , that god wont find him because he would be dead.
If he would have been with god.

Job 17
15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in
the dust.

Job 34:15
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they
die, and return to their dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall
return unto God who gave it.

The spirit is not the soul of a man but rather the breath of life that god
puts in a body and that creates a living soul.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I will explain the diffrence between the spirit and the soul in another
email.

Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake
and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the
earth shall cast out the dead.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I
will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and
I will establish his kingdom.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall
not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the
sleep of death;


I thaught I would throw this in as well as that one about not raising untill the new heaven and earth.

It is new testament but I put it hear for those that believe the myth that jesus went into the underworld and freed the spirits there.(which is purely greek and eygptian mythology)

This one in acts is way after jesus resurrection so jesus didn`t take david
with him.

Acts 2:34
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord
said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(That was after the resurrection.)

peace

Celtic :wave:
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Crusader;
I did not mean to offend you Sheppard, I am sorry if I overlooked your post but either way you need not get offended brother..

I fully understand this post but I would be open to what you think about what BULWARK is saying hear.

Then I will be glad to address your last post once we are on peaceful terms Sheppard.

  1. I am not offended.
  2. Had I wanted to respond to Bulwarks post I would have done so. It is the typical laundry list of verses, which seem to support a particular view, and which in many cases ignores the immediate context of the verse and omits and ignores other verses which do not.
  3. Bulwark’s list and your subsequent list were answered on another thread. I see very little I can add to that response. See link below.
  4. You appear to be the one easily offended. I have said nothing offensive. I made statements of fact. And asked you for your alleged mythological sources for Christian beliefs. Why does that offend you?

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16046
 
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OldShepherd

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Crusader and Bulwark,
_____Here is an article I copied from the ISBE. Which discusses the Biblical (O.T.& N.T.) doctrine of the resurrection. It references most, if not all, of the applicable scriptures. This article also addresses the often made charges that the Bible, Judaism, and/or Christianity were copied from pagan religions, with documentation from historical sources.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Resurrection
rez-u-rek'-shun (in the New Testament anastasis, with verbs anistemi, "stand up," and egeiro, "raise." There is no technical term in the Old Testament, but in Isa_26:19 are found the verbs chayah, "live," kum "rise," kic "awake").

1. Nationalism:

It is very remarkable that a doctrine of life after death as an essential part of religion was of very late development in Israel, although this doctrine, often highly elaborated, was commonly held among the surrounding nations. The chief cause of this lateness was that Israel's religion centered predominantly in the ideal of a holy nation. Consequently the individual was a secondary object of consideration, and the future of the man who died before the national promises were fulfilled either was merged in the future of his descendants or else was disregarded altogether.

2. Speculation:

Much speculation about life after death evidently existed, but it was not in direct connection with the nation's religion. Therefore, the Old Testament data are scanty and point, as might be expected, to non-homogeneous concepts. Still, certain ideas are clear. The living individual was composed of "flesh" and nephesh, or ruach (a trichotomy appears to be post-Biblical, despite 1Th_5:23; see PSYCHOLOGY). In the individual nephesh and ruach seem to be fairly synonymous words, meaning primarily "breath," as the animating principle of the flesh (so for the lower animals in Psa_104:29-30). But nephesh came to be used to denote the "inner man" or "self" (Deu_12:20, etc.; see HEART), and so in English Versions of the Bible is usually rendered "soul." But there are only a very few cases where nephesh is used for the seat of the personality after death (Psa_30:3; compare Psa_16:10; Psa_38:17; Job_33:18, etc.), and nearly all of such passages seem quite late. Indeed, in some 13 cases the nephesh of a dead man is unmistakably his corpse (Lev_19:28; Num_5:2; Hag_2:13, etc.). It seems the question of what survives death was hardly raised; whatever existed then was thought of as something quite new. On the one hand the dead man could be called a "god" (1Sa_28:13), a term perhaps related to ancestor-worship. But more commonly the dead are thought of as "shades," repha'im (Job_26:5 margin, etc.), weak copies of the original man in all regards (Eze_32:25). But, whatever existence such "shades" might have, they had passed out of relation to Yahweh, whom the "dead praise not" (Psa_115:17-18; Isa_38:18-19), and there was no religious interest in them.

3. Religious Danger:

Indeed, any interest taken in them was likely to be anti-religious, as connected with necromancy, etc. (Deu_14:1; Deu_26:14; Isa_8:19; Psa_106:28, etc.; see SORCERY), or as connected with foreign religions. Here, probably, the very fact that the surrounding nations taught immortality was a strong reason for Israel's refusing to consider it. That Egypt held an elaborate doctrine of individual judgment at death, or that Persia taught the resurrection of the body, would actually tend to render these doctrines suspicious, and it was not until the danger of syncretism seemed past that such beliefs could be considered on their own merits. Hence, it is not surprising that the prophets virtually disregard the idea or that Ecclesiastes denies any immortality doctrine categorically.

4. Belief in Immortality:

Nonetheless, with a fuller knowledge of God, wider experience, and deeper reflection, the doctrine was bound to come. But it came slowly. Individualism reaches explicit statement in Eze. 14; 18; 33 (compare Deu_24:16; Jer_31:29-30), but the national point of view still made the rewards and punishments of the individual matters of this world only (Eze_14:14; Psa. 37, etc.), a doctrine that had surprising vitality and that is found as late as Sirach (1:13; 11:26). But as this does not square with the facts of life (Job), a doctrine of immortality, already hinted at (II, 1, below), was inevitable. It appears in full force in the post-Maccabean period, but why just then is hard to say; perhaps because it was then that there had been witnessed the spectacle of martyrdoms on a large scale (1 Macc 1:60-64).

5. Resurrection:

Resurrection of the body was the form immortality took, in accord with the religious premises. As the saint was to find his happiness in the nation, he must be restored to the nation; and the older views did not point toward pure soul-immortality. The "shades" led a wretched existence at the best; and Paul himself shudders at the thought of "nakedness" (2Co_5:3). The nephesh and ruach were uncertain quantities, and even the New Testament has no consistent terminology for the immortal part of man ("soul," Rev_6:9; Rev_20:4; "spirit," Heb_12:23; 1Pe_3:19; Paul avoids any term in 1Co. 15, and in 2Co. 5 says: "I"). In the Talmud a common view is that the old bodies will receive new souls (Ber. R. 2 7; 6 7; Vayy. R. 12 2; 15 1, etc.; compare Sib Or 4:187).

6. Greek Concepts:

Where direct Greek influence, however, can be predicated, pure soul-immortality is found (compare The Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20; 9:15 (but Wisd's true teaching is very uncertain); Enoch 102:4 through 105; 108; Slavonic Enoch; 4 Macc; Josephus, and especially Philo). According to Josephus (BJ, II, viii, 11) the Essenes held this doctrine, but as Josephus graecizes the Pharisaic resurrection into Pythagorean soul-migration (II, viii, 14; contrast Ant, XVIII, i, 3), his evidence is doubtful. Note, moreover, how Luk_6:9; Luk_9:25; Luk_12:4-5 has re-worded Mar_3:4; Mar_8:36; Mat_10:28 for Greek readers. In a vague way even Palestinian Judaism had something of the same concepts (2 Esdras 7:88; 2Co_4:16; 2Co_12:2), while it is commonly held that the souls in the intermediate state can enjoy happiness, a statement first appearing in Enoch 22 (Jubilees 23:31 is hardly serious).

II. Resurrection in the Old Testament and Intermediate Literature.

1. The Old Testament:

For the reasons given above, references in the Old Testament to the resurrection doctrine are few. Probably it is to be found in Psa_17:15; Psa_16:11; Psa_49:15; Psa_73:24, and in each case with increased probability, but for exact discussions the student must consult the commentaries. Of course no exact dating of these Psalm passages is possible. With still higher probability the doctrine is expressed in Job_14:13-15; Job_19:25-29, but again alternative explanations are just possible, and, again, Job is a notoriously hard book to date (see JOB, BOOK OF). The two certain passages are Isa_26:19 margin and Dan_12:2. In the former (to be dated about 332 (?)) it is promised that the "dew of light" shall fall on the earth and so the (righteous) dead shall revive. But this resurrection is confined to Palestine and does not include the unrighteous. For Dan_12:2 see below.

2. The Righteous:

Indeed, resurrection for the righteous only was thought of much more naturally than a general resurrection. And still more naturally a resurrection of martyrs was thought of, such simply receiving back what they had given up for God. So in Enoch 90:33 (prior to 107 BC) and 2 Macc 7:9,11,23; 14:46 (only martyrs are mentioned in 2 Macc); compare Rev_20:4. But of course the idea once given could not be restricted to martyrs only, and the intermediate literature contains so many references to the resurrection of the righteous as to debar citation. Early passages are Enoch 91:10 (perhaps pre-Maccabean); Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Test. Judah 25:4 (before 107). A very curious passage is Enoch 25:6, where the risen saints merely live longer than did their fathers, i.e. resurrection does not imply immortality. This passage seems to be unique.

3. The Unrighteous:

For a resurrection of unrighteous men (Dan_12:2; Enoch 22:11; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Test. Benj. 10:7-8, Armenian text--in none of these cases a general resurrection), a motive is given in Enoch 22:13: for such men the mere condition of Sheol is not punishment enough. For a general resurrection the motive is always the final judgment, so that all human history may be summed up in one supreme act. The idea is not very common, and Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Test. Benj. 10:7,8 (Greek text); Baruch 50:2; Enoch 51:1; Sib Or 4:178-90; Life of Adam (Greek) 10, and 2 Esdras 5:45; 7:32; 14:35 about account for all the unequivocal passages. It is not found in the earliest part of the Talmud, Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Test. Benj. 10:7,8 (Greek) has two resurrections.

4. Complete Denial:

Finally, much of the literature knows no immortality at all. Eccl, Sirach and 1 Maccabees are the most familiar examples, but there are many others. It is especially interesting that the very spiritual author of 2 Esdras did not think it worth while to modify the categorical denial in the source used in 13:20. Of course, the Jewish party that persisted most in a denial of any resurrection was the Sadducees (Mat_22:23 and parallel's; Act_23:8), with an extreme conservatism often found among aristocrats.
To Be Continued
 
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OldShepherd

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III. Teaching of Christ.

1. Mar_12:18-27 :

The question is discussed explicitly in the familiar passage Mar_12:18-27 parallel Mat_22:23-33 parallel Luk_20:27-38. The Sadducees assumed that resurrection implies simply a resuscitation to a resumption of human functions, including the physical side of marriage. Their error lay in the low idea of God. For the Scriptures teach a God whose ability and willingness to care for His creatures are so unlimited that the destiny He has prepared for them is caricatured if conceived in any terms but the absolutely highest. Hence, there follows not only the truth of the resurrection, but a resurrection to a state as far above the sexual sphere as that of the angels. (The possibility of mutual recognition by husband and wife is irrelevant, nor is it even said that the resurrection bodies are asexual) Luke (Luk_20:36) adds the explanation that, as there are to be no deaths, marriage (in its relation to births) will not exist. It may be thought that Christ's argument would support equally well the immortality of the soul only, and, as a matter of fact, the same argument is used for the latter doctrine in 4 Macc 7:18-19; 16:25. But in Jerusalem and under the given circumstances this is quite impossible. And, moreover, it would seem that any such dualism would be a violation of Christ's teaching as to God's care.

2. In General:

However, the argument seems to touch only the resurrection of the righteous, especially in the form given in Luke (compare Luk_14:14). (But that Luke thought of so limiting the resurrection is disproved by Act_24:15.) Similarly in Mat_8:11 parallel Luk_13:28; Mar_13:27 parallel Mat_24:31. But, as a feature in the Judgment, the resurrection of all men is taught. Then the men of sodom, Tyre, Nineveh appear (Mat_11:22, Mat_11:24; Mat_12:41-42 parallel Luk_10:14; Luk_11:32), and those cast into Gehenna are represented as having a body (Mar_9:43-47; Mat_5:29-30; Mat_10:28; Mat_18:8-9). And at the great final assize (Mat. 25:31-46) all men appear. In the Fourth Gospel a similar distinction is made (Joh_6:39-40, Joh_6:44, Joh_6:54; Joh_11:25), the resurrection of the righteous, based on their union with God through Christ and heir present possession of this union, and (in Joh_5:28-29) the general resurrection to judgment. Whether these passages imply two resurrections or emphasize only the extreme difference in conditions at the one cannot be determined.

The passages in 4 Maccabees referred to above read: "They who care for piety with their whole heart, they alone are able to conquer the impulses of the flesh, believing that like our patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, they do not die to God but live to God" (7:18-19); and "They knew that dying for God they would live to God, even as Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the patriarchs" (16:25). It is distinctly possible that our Lord's words may have been known to the author of 4 Maccabees, although the possibility that Christ approved and broadened the tenets of some spiritually-minded few is not to be disregarded. More possible is it that 4 Maccabees influenced Luke's Greek phraseology.

See MACCABEES, BOOKS OF, IV.

IV. The Apostolic Doctrine.

1. References:

For the apostles, Christ's victory over death took the resurrection doctrine out of the realm of speculative eschatology. Henceforth, it is a fact of experience, basic for Christianity. Direct references in the New Testament are found in Act_4:2; Act_17:18, Act_17:32; Act_23:6; Act_24:15, Act_24:21; Rom_4:17; Rom_5:17; Rom_6:5, Rom_6:8; Rom_8:11; Rom_11:15; 1Co_6:14; 15; 2Co_1:9; 2Co_4:14; 2Co_5:1-10; Phi_3:10-11, Phi_3:21; Col_1:18; 1Th_4:13-18; 2Ti_2:18; Heb_6:2; Heb_11:19, Heb_11:35; Rev_20:4-5 (martyrs only); Rev_20:12-13. Of these only Act_24:15; Rev_20:12-13, refer to a general resurrection with absolute unambiguity, but the doctrine is certainly contained in others and in 2Ti_4:1 besides.

2. Pauline Doctrine:

A theology of the resurrection is given fully by Paul. Basic is the conception of the union of the believer with Christ, so that our resurrection follows from His (especially Rom_6:5-11; Phi_3:10-11). Every deliverance from danger is a foretaste of the resurrection (2Co_4:10-11). Indeed so certain is it, that it may be spoken of as accomplished (Eph_2:6). From another standpoint, the resurrection is simply part of God's general redemption of Nature at the consummation (Rom_8:11, Rom_8:18-25). As the believer then passes into a condition of glory, his body must be altered for the new conditions (1Co_15:50; Phi_3:21); it becomes a "spiritual" body, belonging to the realm of the spirit (not "spiritual" in opposition to "material"). Nature shows us how different "bodies" can be--from the "body" of the sun to the bodies of the lowest animals the kind depends merely on the creative will of God (1Co_15:38-41). Nor is the idea of a change in the body of the same thing unfamiliar: look at the difference in the "body" of a grain of wheat at its sowing and after it is grown! (1Co_15:37). Just so, I am "sown" or sent into the world (probably not "buried") with one kind of body, but my resurrection will see me with a body adapted to my life with Christ and God (1Co_15:42-44). If I am still alive at the Parousia, this new body shall be clothed upon my present body (1Co_15:53-54; 2Co_5:2-4) otherwise I shall be raised in it (1Co_15:52). This body exists already in the heavens (2Co_5:1-2), and when it is clothed upon me the natural functions of the present body will be abolished (1Co_6:13). Yet a motive for refraining from impurity is to keep undefiled the body that is to rise (1Co_6:13-14).

3. Continuity:

The relation of the matter in the present body to that in the resurrection body was a question Paul never raised. In 1Co_6:13-14 it appears that he thought of the body as something more than the sum of its organs, for the organs perish, but the body is raised. Nor does he discuss the eventual fate of the dead body. The imagery of 1Th_4:16-17; 1Co_15:52 is that of leaving the graves, and in the case of Christ's resurrection, the type of ours, that which was buried was that which was raised (1Co_15:4). Perhaps the thought is that the touch of the resurrection body destroys all things in the old body that are unadapted to the new state; perhaps there is an idea that the essence of the old body is what we might call "non-material," so that decay simply anticipates the work the resurrection will do. At all events, such reflections are "beyond what is written."

4. 2 Corinthians 5:

A partial parallel to the idea of the resurrection body being already in heaven is found in Slavonic Enoch 22:8-9, where the soul receives clothing laid up for it (compare Ascension of Isaiah 7:22,23 and possibly Rev_6:11). But Christ also speaks of a reward being already in heaven (Mat_5:12). A more important question is the time of the clothing in 2Co_5:1-5. A group of scholars (Heinrici, Schmiedel, Holtzmann, Clemen, Charles, etc.) consider that Paul has here changed his views from those of 1 Corinthians; that he now considers the resurrection body to be assumed immediately at death, and they translate 2Co_5:2-3 " 'we groan (at the burdens of life), longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven': because, when we shall be clothed with it, we shall have no more nakedness to experience" (Weizsacker's translation of the New Testament). But 2 Corinthians would have been a most awkward place to announce a change of views, for it was written in part as a defense against inconsistency (2Co_1:17, etc.). The willingness to be absent from the body (2Co_5:8) loses all its point if another and better body is to be given at once. The grammatical reasons for the interpretation above (best stated by Heinrici) are very weak. And the translation given reads into the verse something that simply is not there. Consequently it is far better to follow the older interpretation of Meyer (B. Weiss, Bousset, Lietzmann, Bachmann, Menzies, etc.; Bachmann is especially good) and the obvious sense of the passage: Paul dreads being left naked by death, but finds immediate consolation at the thought of being with Christ, and eventual consolation at the thought of the body to be received at the Parousia. (In Phi_1:21-24 this dread is overcome.)

Of a resurrection of the wicked, Paul has little to say. The doctrine seems clearly stated in 2Co_5:10 (and in 2Ti_4:1, unless the Pauline authorship of 2 Timothy is denied). But Paul is willing to treat the fate of the unrighteous with silence.

V. Summary.

1. New Testament Data:

The points in the New Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the righteous, then, seem to be these: The personality of the believer survives after death and is with Christ. But it is lacking in something that will be supplied at the consummation, when a body will be given in which there is nothing to hinder perfect intercourse with God. The connection of this body with the present body is not discussed, except for saying that some connection exists, with the necessity of a transformation for those alive at the end. In this state nothing remains that is inconsistent with the height to which man is raised, and in particular sexual relations (Mar_12:25) and the processes of nutrition (1Co_6:13) cease. For this end the whole power of God is available. And it is insured by the perfect trust the believer may put in God and by the resurrection of Christ, with whom the believer has become intimately united. The unrighteous are raised for the final vindication of God's dealings in history. Two resurrections are found in Rev_20:5, Rev_20:13 and quite possibly in 1Th_4:16; 1Co_15:23-24. Hence, the phrase first resurrection.

See JUDGMENT, LAST.

2. Interpretation:

Into the "blanks" of this scheme the believer is naturally entitled to insert such matter as may seem to him best compatible with his other concepts of Christianity and of philosophy. As is so often the case with passages in the Bible, the student marvels at the way the sacred writers were restrained from committing Christianity to metaphysical schemes that growth in human knowledge might afterward show to be false. But theologian must take care to distinguish between the revealed facts and the interpretation given them in any system that he constructs to make the doctrine conform to the ideas of his own time or circle--a distinction too often forgotten in the past and sometimes with lamentable results. Especially is it well to remember that such a phrase as "a purely spiritual immortality" rests on a metaphysical dualism that is today obsolete, and that such a phrase is hardly less naive than the expectation that the resurrection body will contain identically the material of the present body. We are still quite in the dark as to the relations of what we call "soul" and "body," and so, naturally, it is quite impossible to dogmatize. A. Meyer in his RGG article ("Auferstehung, dogmatisch") has some interesting suggestions. For an idealistic metaphysic, where soul and body are only two forms of God's thought, the resurrection offers no difficulties. If the body be regarded as the web of forces that proceed from the soul, the resurrection would take the form of the return of those forces to their center at the consummation. If "body" be considered to embrace the totality of effects that proceed from the individual, at the end the individual will find in these effects the exact expression of himself (Fechner's theory). Or resurrection may be considered as the end of evolution--the reunion in God of all that has been differentiated and so evolved and enriched. Such lines must be followed cautiously, but may be found to lead to results of great value.

In recent years the attention of scholars has been directed to the problem of how far the teachings of other religions assisted the Jews in attaining a resurrection doctrine. Practically only the Persian system comes into question, and here the facts seem to be these: A belief among the Persians in the resurrection of the body is attested for the pre-Christian period by the fragments of Theopompus (4th century BC), preserved by Diogenes Laertius and Aeneas of Gaza. That this doctrine was taught by Zoroaster himself is not capable of exact proof, but is probable. But on the precise details we are in great uncertainty. In the Avesta the doctrine is not found in the oldest part (the Gathas), but is mentioned in the 19th Yasht, a document that has certainly undergone post-Christian redaction of an extent that is not determinable. The fullest Persian source is the Bundahesh (30), written in the 9th Christian century. It certainly contains much very ancient matter, but the age of any given passage in it is always a problem. Consequently the sources must be used with great caution. It may be noted that late Judaism certainly was affected to some degree by the Persian religion (see Tob, especially), but there are so many native Jewish elements that were leading to a resurrection doctrine that familiarity with the Persian belief could have been an assistance only. Especially is it to be noted that the great acceptance of the doctrine lies in the post-Maccabean period, when direct Persian influence is hardly to be thought of.

LITERATURE.

The older works suffer from a defective understanding of the presuppositions, but Salmond, Christian Doctrine of Immortality, is always useful. Brown, The Christian Hope, 1912, is excellent and contains a full bibliography. Charles, Eschatology, and article "Eschatology" in Encyclopedia Biblica are invaluable, but must be used critically by the thorough student, for the opinions are often individualistic. Wotherspoon's article "Resurrection" in DCG is good; Bernard's in HDB is not so good. On 1 Corinthians, Findlay or (better) Edwards; on 2 Corinthians, Menzies. In German the New Testament Theologies of Weiss, Holtzmann, Feine; Schaeder's "Auferstehung" in PRE3. On 1 Cor, Heinrici and J. Weiss in Meyer (editions 8 and 9); on 2 Corinthians, Bachmann in the Zahn series. On both Corinthian epistles Bousset in the Schriften des New Testament of J. Weiss (the work of an expert in eschatology), and Lietzmann in his Handbuch.
Burton Scott Easton
 
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celtic_crusader

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Old sheppard,
That is a long list and I will read it and think about it but I didn`t have to look very far to see that what I believe is on the right track.

I don`t normaly trust other peoples studys until I have studyed from my own sources as well because I find most people will twist things to suite what they believe , so the answers are not as simple as reading someone elses artical.

I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone elses study hear on this subject. I for one have studied it myself and not taken what others say without thourouly checking there source and understanding were they went wrong or if they are right.


this is what I got within 5 mins of looking up the encarta encyclopedia;

HADES;

in Greek mythology, god of the dead. He was the son of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. When the three brothers divided up the universe after they had deposed their father, Cronus, Hades was awarded the underworld. There, with his queen, Persephone, whom he had abducted from the world above, he ruled the kingdom of the dead
The underworld itself was often called Hades. It was divided into two regions: Erebus, where the dead pass as soon as they die, and Tartarus, the deeper region, where the Titans had been imprisoned. It was a dim and unhappy place, inhabited by vague forms and shadows and guarded by Cerberus, the three-headed, dragon-tailed dog. Sinister rivers separated the underworld from the world above.




the underworld;

Osiris, in Egyptian mythology, one of the principal deities. Originally the local god of Abydos and Busiris, Osiris, who represented the male productive force in nature, became identified with the setting sun. Thus he was regarded as the ruler of the realm of the dead in the mysterious region below the western horizon. Osiris lived on in the underworld as the ruler of the dead.

NOW HEAVEN;

The Book of the Dead also contains instructions for proper conduct before these judges. If the judges decided the deceased had been a sinner, the ka was condemned to hunger and thirst or to be torn to pieces by horrible executioners. If the decision was favorable, the ka went to the heavenly realm of the fields of Yaru, where grain grew 3.7 m (12 ft) high and existence was a glorified version of life on earth. All the necessities for this paradisiacal existence, from furniture to reading matter, were, therefore, put into the tombs.




GREEK MYTH;

(Thessalia), as their home. On Olympus, the gods formed a society that ranked them in terms of authority and powers. However, the gods could roam freely, and individual gods became associated with three main domains-the sky or heaven, the sea, and earth. The 12 chief gods, usually called the Olympians, were Zeus, Hera, Hephaestus, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hestia, Hermes, Demeter, and Poseidon.
Zeus was the head of the gods, and the spiritual father of gods and people. His wife, Hera, was the queen of heaven and the guardian of marriage. Other gods associated with heaven were Hephaestus, god of fire and metalworkers; Athena, goddess of wisdom and war; and Apollo, god of light, poetry, and music. Artemis, goddess of wildlife and the moon; Ares, god of war; and Aphrodite, goddess of love, were other gods of heaven. They were joined by Hestia, goddess of the hearth; and Hermes, messenger of the gods and ruler of science and invention.





well , that took all of 5 mins and all I keep seeing is exactly what I said.

I see christianity right through these encyclopedia cuts and that is a huge concern to me.

the three brothers dividing the universe up (the trinity born in 325 AD)

The three teared world that was taught to christians through the dark age and there was persucution for any one daring to think the world was round and hell a simple myth along with heaven.

The Jews in the time of 200 bc to 100 ad were under mass greek influance.

look at this cut from the encarta old sheppard.


Antiochus IV, called Epiphanes ("the illustrious") (215?-164 BC), king of Syria (175-164BC), son of Antiochus III. From 171 to 168BC, he was involved in a war against Egypt, defeating two Egyptian kings, Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VIII. He captured Jerusalem, prohibited Judaism, and tried to establish the worship of Greek gods. Under the leadership of the Jewish priest Mattathias (died c. 167 BC) and his sons, the Maccabees, the Jews revolted (168-160 BC) and drove Antiochus from Jerusalem. Later he won victories over the Armenians and Persians.



"Antiochus IV," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Most of the christianity we have from the earliest time was influanced by the books of enoch and many other apocraphal books written around the time of antiochus and then the maccabeean kings to try to counteract the huge influances of greek mythology with Ideas of angels coming and taking wives like greek gods and then holy angels overthrowing the greek gods (fallen angels in hebrew myth and Titans in greek myth) and binding them all to hades for judgment in the end.

That all comes from Enoch Who missquotes genesis over and over to establish a new Jewish faith established on the infiltration of paganisim.

this was always the hebrews problem and they were always getting into trouble for being influanced by other gods and nothing changed or has changed today. God is still not happy about the fact that christians and learnered bible students can`t realy agree on much of what the bible says at all as a result of pagan influance.

thats why we needed the reformation and that is why god is going to keep raising up people to tair down these false pagan consepts picked up by christianity.

it is a shame when we can no longer find established truth because there has become so many ways of seeing it.

I see for my self what the bible says , but it says something diffrent to someone else who knows the scriptures just as good and then againg by someone else which explains the thousands of diffrent sects all claiming they follow the bible so I think the church will in the end , have no other choice but to return to being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of what some preacher believes or some article says or even the bible on certain issues I would say it is wiser to listen to the holy ghost.


but hey , thats my opinion.

peace

celtic :)
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Crusadder;
I don`t normaly trust other peoples studys until I have studyed from my own sources as well because I find most people will twist things to suite what they believe , so the answers are not as simple as reading someone elses artical.
_____”I don`t normaly trust other peoples studys. . .” Except for the guru of whatever group you happen to belong to at the present time, which you have posted here. And you are willing to swallow anything you find in a secular, anti-Christian publication, Encarta, which promotes new age and secular humanism, without bothering to verify it with any other source.
I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone elses study hear on this subject. I for one have studied it myself and not taken what others say without thourouly checking there source and understanding were they went wrong or if they are right.
this is what I got within 5 mins of looking up the encarta encyclopedia;
_____Keep wondering. I have been a believer since 6 months before the 6 day war. I’m guessing that is about 10 years before you were born. I have 8 years education above High School, 4 in a major Theological school. In my own personal library I have the following Biblical resources, among many others, And I am prepared to respond, rebut, and refute any anti-Christian, anti-N.T., falsehood you care to post.
  • Brown-Driver-Briggs, Hebrew/English Lexicon of the O.T.
  • Theological Word Book of the O.T., two volumes.
  • Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker, Greek/English Lexicon of the N.T.
  • Theological Dictionary of the N.T.
  • International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
  • John Gill’s, Commentary on the Whole Bible.
  • Thayer’s, Greek Lexicon
  • A.T. Robertson’s, Word Pictures in the New Testament, six volumes.
_____Robertson taught N.T. Greek at the post graduate level for 46 years. Wrote forty books on the Greek language and the N.T. Wrote a 1200 page Greek grammar of the N.T. which took 26 years to complete and the “Word Pictures”
HADES;
in Greek mythology, god of the dead. He was the son of the Titans . . . The underworld itself was often called Hades. It was divided into two regions:. . .
_____Except for the name hades. I see nothing that is the same or similar to any O.T./N.T. concept of hell. All your quotes are from only one source and do not cite or reference any other recognized historical sources. I removed Encarta from my computer because it is blatantly anti-Christian and promotes new age and secular humanism.
the underworld;
Osiris, in Egyptian mythology, one of the principal deities. . .
_____Again no similarities. No proof that anything in Christianity was copied from or influenced by pagan beliefs. Even if some similarity could be shown, similarity is not proof. For example, in your country there is a living creature, which has webbed feet like a duck, has a bill like a duck, swims in the water like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, but it is not a duck, it is not even a fowl. It is a marsupial, an animal called a Platypus. All those similarities does not make it a duck or anything close to a duck! And since this similar to a duck creature has existed far, far longer than any pagan legend you can quote you will have to do better that simply a few similarities.
NOW HEAVEN;
The Book of the Dead also contains instructions for proper conduct before these judges. . .
_____Again no similarity with any Christian practices/beliefs. Absolutely no proof that anything in Christianity was copied from/influenced by these pagan beliefs about heaven!
GREEK MYTH;
(Thessalia), as their home. On Olympus, . . .the gods could roam freely, and individual gods became associated with three main domains-the sky or heaven, the sea, and earth. The 12 chief gods, . . .
_____Once again, no similarities, no proof. “three main domains. . . The 12 chief gods. . .” There is nothing in Christianity like that! Let me explain what I, as a scholar, expect to see, one or more quotes from your source stating a particular belief or practice compared to one or more quotes from the Bible which are the same or very similar to your source. Then some documentation where, when, how, by whom, the Biblical belief/practice was copied from the pagan source.
well , that took all of 5 mins and all I keep seeing is exactly what I said.
I see christianity right through these encyclopedia cuts and that is a huge concern to me.
_____Of course, you keep seeing exactly what your current guru tells you to see, what you want to see. But what you do not see is the first piece of credible evidence of anything. What is of great concern to me are people who post long mindless attacks against Christianity and/or the N.T. without any proof of their allegations.
the three brothers dividing the universe up (the trinity born in 325 AD)
_____There are several things wrong with this. How does a Greek legend about three deities allegedly dividing the universe become the Trinity, the belief that One God, has manifested Himself to humanity as a Triunity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The only similarity is the number three. Are you saying just because they both mention the number three they are supposed to be the same or what?
_____You bring up the blatant falsehood that the Trinity was “born” in 325 AD. This is a perennial favorite of the anti-Christian, anti-N.T. crowd. I assume you are referring to the Nicaean council which convened in May 325. The Trinity was never mentioned at Nicaea or in any of the decisions issued by the council! Since you are quoting from Encarta, look that up. I think Encarta finally got one right, the Nicaean council met to address the Arian heresy, that Jesus was a created being. And they also discussed the date of Easter. Nothing about the Trinity!
_____Here is a link to the writings of Theophilus, one of the early church fathers, 115-182 AD. He used the term Trinity, referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the year 168 AD, one hundred fifty seven years before Niacaea! None of the anti-Christian, anti-N.T. gurus tell their followers that. They don’t want their blind little sheep to know that the early church was Trinitarian from the very first.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-42.htm#P1469_430289

The three teared world that was taught to christians through the dark age and there was persucution for any one daring to think the world was round and hell a simple myth along with heaven.
_____In American law, this is, “assuming facts not in evidence.” I have never heard of a three tiered world in Christianity. You have not presented any evidence/proof that anyone other than the ancient Greeks believed in a three tiered “universe”, not” world. You appear to be twisting what you yourself posted to try to make it say something different. Below is a link to all the writings of the early church, 38 volumes. There is a search engine at the top of the home page, please feel free to search these writings and provide proof/evidence of this teaching. Don’t believe me, but it isn’t there. More false anti-Christian teachings from a phony guru.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

The Jews in the time of 200 bc to 100 ad were under mass greek influance.
Antiochus IV, called Epiphanes ("the illustrious") (215?-164 BC), king of Syria (175-164BC), son of Antiochus III. From 171 to 168BC, he was involved in a war against Egypt, defeating two Egyptian kings, Ptolemy VI and Ptolemy VIII. He captured Jerusalem, prohibited Judaism, and tried to establish the worship of Greek gods. Under the leadership of the Jewish priest Mattathias (died c. 167 BC) and his sons, the Maccabees, the Jews revolted (168-160 BC) and drove Antiochus from Jerusalem.
_____ Please read the second sentence of your own post. “He. . . tried to establish the worship of Greek gods.” ”Tried” means he failed! The major influence of Judaism and Christianity from 33 to 100 AD, and beyond, was Roman, not Greek. One quote from a single secular source does not prove mass anything.
Most of the christianity we have from the earliest time was influanced by the books of enoch and many other apocraphal books written around the time of antiochus and then the maccabeean kings to try to counteract the huge influances of greek mythology with Ideas of angels coming and taking wives like greek gods and then holy angels overthrowing the greek gods (fallen angels in hebrew myth and Titans in greek myth) and binding them all to hades for judgment in the end.
_____This statement is contradictory. If the books of Enoch, etc. were written to counteract which means “to act directly against; check, neutralize, or undo the effect of with opposing action”, the influence of Greek mythology, i.e. paganism, how could Judaism and Christianity be influenced toward paganism by books which oppose that very thing?
_____These undocumented, unsupported opinions are all well and good but you haven’t offered the first bit of evidence that Christianity was influenced by Enoch or anything else. Quote from Enoch then compare it to the Bible and then prove that one was copied from/influenced by the other. You haven’t done any of that. BTW there are no angels, fallen or otherwise, taking wives in the O.T. or N.T.! And there are certainly no angels, holy or otherwise, overthrowing greek gods.
That all comes from Enoch Who missquotes genesis over and over to establish a new Jewish faith established on the infiltration of paganisim.
_____You haven’t proved that Enoch quotes or misquotes anything. You saying it, does not make it so. Post a quote from Enoch which you claim misquotes Genesis. And so what if Enoch did misquote Genesis, where is any proof that, what ever Enoch may have said was of pagan origin and had any affect on Judaism or Christianity?
(To Be Continued)
 
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OldShepherd

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this was always the hebrews problem and they were always getting into trouble for being influanced by other gods and nothing changed or has changed today.
_____And if you read your O.T. you will find that God dealt harshly with Israel, every time they went astray. But in every age he had faithful servants who had not bowed the knee to pagan deities.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
God is still not happy about the fact that christians and learnered bible students can`t realy agree on much of what the bible says at all as a result of pagan influance.
_____When did God authorize you to speak for Him about what He is or is not happy about? Most of the disagreement is from people who know only a handful of “proof texts” which seem to prove their doctrine, not “learned bible students”, people who can read the original languages themselves and know when some false teacher is wresting the scriptures.
thats why we needed the reformation and that is why god is going to keep raising up people to tair down these false pagan consepts picked up by christianity.
_____You are still presuming to speak for God about what He is or is not doing or going to do. And you still haven’t shown any proof/evidence of any pagan concepts picked up by Christianity
it is a shame when we can no longer find established truth because there has become so many ways of seeing it.
_____Maybe you do, but I don’t have any problem finding the truth. I read both Biblical languages and I find that most false, anti-Christian, teachings, like yours, are by people who couldn’t parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb, i.e. read and understand the original languages, if someone put a gun to their head.
I see for my self what the bible says , but it says something diffrent to someone else who knows the scriptures just as good and then againg by someone else which explains the thousands of diffrent sects all claiming they follow the bible so I think the church will in the end , have no other choice but to return to being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of what some preacher believes or some article says or even the bible on certain issues I would say it is wiser to listen to the holy ghost.
_____I assume you mean you see for yourself what a few selected “proof texts” in your favorite English translation of the Bible says, as influenced by the teachings of your current guru. Yes, there are many sects and cults claiming to follow the Bible. If you look closely you will find that many of them, their leader’s interpretation of the Bible often involves sex, money, or power for that leader. For example, the two most notorious of recent times, Jim Jones and David Koresh, both required their followers to turn over all their possessions to the group, i.e. the leader, and both had sex with many of their female followers.
“I think the church will in the end , have no other choice but to return to being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of what some preacher believes or some article says” Which means that you think the church should follow you and/or your guru because you, like every sect and cult before you, are convinced that your elite little group, alone, has the truth and every other church/denomination for the last, almost, 2000 years has been wrong.
_____”being lead and trusting of the holy ghost instead of the bible on certain issues. . .I would say it is wiser to listen to the holy ghost.” A sure fire recipe for disaster. That is what every sect and cult leader in the world has said, “The Holy spirit spoke die-rectly to me and told me blah, blah, blah. Follow me! I am the one, all those other guys are wrong. Don’t read your Bible I will tell you what to believe.
_____The Bible is God’s word. God said it would not return to Him void. Jesus said His words would not pass away. But you are saying that whatever you think the Holy Spirit might be saying to you is more authoritative that God’s word. No thank you. I have seen a too many false teachers ruin too many people and get too many people killed with that same poison.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

_____Is God capable of doing what He says in this verse? Or are you right and this verse wrong? You claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, are going to correct the Bible where it is wrong?

Mt 16:18 . . . upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

_____Is this statement by Jesus wrong? Did the gates of hell prevail against the church that Jesus Himself built upon the rock, and only you, along with the Holy Spirit, are capable of restoring His church, because it does not exist today?

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mr 13:31, Lu 21:33)


_____Is Jesus wrong? Is the Bible corrupted and unreliable and only you, and your guru and his followers, know which parts are true and which false? Koolaid anyone?

but hey , thats my opinion.
_____You are absolutely right, that is nothing but your opinion. You have not presented any credible evidence, whatsoever, of pagan influence in Christianity or Judaism!

_____Here is an example of what I mean by quoting proof. Here is a verse from the O.T., Hab 2:4, and a verse from the N.T., Rom 1:17, that I claim was influenced by or copied from the O.T. verse. Are these verses similar or the same? I might be wrong but there is a phrase in these two verses that is virtually identical, “the just shall live by his faith.” and “The just shall live by faith.” Do you have any proof like that?

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 
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celtic_crusader

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I read all of two of your first two points sheppard and in both , your foolish presumptions were extreamly wrong.

I have one lord and one faith and one baptisim and one father who is above all and knows all, he even knows how old I am :D :p which is much older than your foolish presumptions.I can make a presumption of my own and say I would know more about the nation of Isreal that you will ever dream of knowing , thanks be to god.

Your aproch is very tactless for someone claiming to be of the holy ghost so I think I will stop at the first two foolish presumptions and forget this conversation with you sir as Im not hear to talk to trouble makers.
 
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OldShepherd

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Originally posted by celtic_crusadder I read all of two of your first two points sheppard and in both , your foolish presumptions were extreamly wrong.

I have one lord and one faith and one baptisim and one father who is above all and knows all, he even knows how old I am :D :p which is much older than your foolish presumptions.I can make a presumption of my own and say I would know more about the nation of Isreal that you will ever dream of knowing , thanks be to god.

Your aproch is very tactless for someone claiming to be of the holy ghost so I think I will stop at the first two foolish presumptions and forget this conversation with you sir as Im not hear to talk to trouble makers.
_____Tactless? Oh now I've gone and hurt his feelings and after he insulted me in his response presuming that I didn't know what I was doing and was only following someone else's teachings. Notice how people who like to insult other people can't take the heat. But it is a good excuse to get out of answering all the false information I pointed out in his previous post.
_____What does knowledge about the Nation of Israel have to do with One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Father, or salvation?
 
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celtic_crusader

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_____Absolutely amazing. I quoted a renowned Greek language resource, R. A. Martin, proving Biblical Greek did in fact use commas, periods, colons/smeicolons, and question marks. And you went blasting right along, "I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation." as if nothing happened.

And that is you being nice :p

I would be more than happy to talk about any subject with you if you wern`t always on the attack , throwing cridentials aroundlike it means anything???? claiming you know what your on about so that gives you the right to act with irational hostility.

I apoligise if I reacted with offence , your approuch is very hostile bro , what do you want me to do hear shep ,fight with you????


The mention of Isreal had about as much relivence as you mentioning Isreal and the 67 war , "nothing at all." :)

Shep , I find that there is alot of diffrent christian sects and doctrines. Wouldn`t you agree with me on this mate?? I also find that it would be unrealistic in todays invironment to start claiming that your theology is so right that god wants you to use it to tare down other christians who have beliefs that are a bit diffrent.


I don`t want to fight with you , I would rather debate the issue mate with mutual respect for each other.

there realy isn`t any need for this type of discusion is there???

I hope you see were I am coming from

Celtic.
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by Old Shepherd
Absolutely amazing. I quoted a renowned Greek language resource, R. A. Martin, proving Biblical Greek did in fact use commas, periods, colons/semicolons, and question marks. And you went blasting right along, "I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation." as if nothing happened.
_____What about this post do you find so offensive? “Absolutely amazing? Actually as I think about it the word should be “incredulous.” I assume when someone posts information from a recognized Greek language source, in a discussion about Greek punctuation, that the parties to that discussion, who (again this is only an assumption) are looking for the truth, would read it. The next sentence is simply a statement of fact. I quoted your exact words. I could have said “continued. . .as if nothing happened.” Were you offended by the word blasting? So once again what do you find so offensive about my post?
_____
if you wern`t always on the attack , throwing cridentials aroundlike it means anything???? claiming you know what your on about so that gives you the right to act with irational hostility.
_____Normally I don’t mention my education but if you will read your post you implied that I did not know what I was doing and was blindly following someone else’s doctrine. Under those circumstance I think it prudent to give a little of my background.
The mention of Isreal had about as much relivence as you mentioning Isreal and the 67 war , "nothing at all."
_____Actually if you will read my post you will see that my mention of the ’67 war was, in fact relevant, it was part of my response to your suggestion that I didn’t know what I was doing. It means that I am not some spring chicken that has only recently come to the faith and don’t know very much.
I also find that it would be unrealistic in todays invironment to start claiming that your theology is so right that god wants you to use it to tare down other christians who have beliefs that are a bit diffrent.
_____I have said nothing about my Theology. If someone is publicly expounding beliefs which contradict the scriptures then Christians have the moral duty to oppose those beliefs lest the unsuspecting be misled into eternal damnation. Any beliefs which rely on blatantly false information also fall into this category.
I would rather debate the issue mate with mutual respect for each other.
_____Fair enough. You have posted information in support of your beliefs. I have challenged that information. Let’s discuss.
_____See below. Copied from Encarta online. The Trinity did not originate with the Nicaean council, in 325 AD!
I. Introduction
Nicaea, Councils of
, two ecumenical councils of the Christian church, held at Nicaea (now Iznik, Turkey), a city of ancient Bithynia, in Asia Minor.

II. First Council of Nicaea
Held in 325, this first ecumenical council was convened by Constantine the Great, emperor of Rome, to settle the Arian dispute concerning the nature of Jesus Christ (see Arianism) Of the 1800 bishops in the Roman Empire, 318 attended the council. Nicene Creed, which defined the Son as consubstantial with the Father, was adopted as the official position of the church regarding the divinity of Christ. The council also fixed the celebration of Easter on the Sunday after the Jewish Pesach, or Passover, and granted to the bishop of Alexandria, Egypt authority in the East in the fashion of Rome's quasi-patriarchal authority, which was not, as sometimes erroneously stated, the same as that of the pope. In this granting of authority lay the origin of the patriarchates throughout the church.


"Nicaea, Councils of," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2002
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved.
 
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celtic_crusader

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Old Sheppard,
From my understanding of the times (and I am not an ignorant historian) it was a time were Christianity was split between the Arian belief and what is today known as the trinity.

I can’t really see how this artily says that the trinity wasn’t disputed at the nicean council because I am under the impression that it was what the whole council was set up to determine or dispute.

I am a little confused as to the relevance of this , to what we have talked about, although it is an interesting subject that I would love to discuss with you.

I must say though Sheppard, I am also of the understanding that there are hundreds of Christian sects all with there version of what the bible means, so it doesn’t really mean anything to me when someone says things like this; "


If someone is publicly expounding beliefs which contradict the scriptures then Christians have the moral duty to oppose those beliefs lest the unsuspecting be misled into eternal damnation. Any beliefs, which rely on blatantly false information, also fall into this category

It is sought of an irrelevant statement to me Sheppard on the grounds that we all have been arguing since the first century about what is true bible understanding. So how can someone in the year 2000 think there doctrine is right because I have never met two Christians that believe the bible the same way unless they were in the same bible class or a cult?

So how can you as an individual be so shore that you are right Sheppard considering there are learnered people like us that disagree on what is what in both scripture and history. Be careful of presumption brother and I will watch my approach as well. I do not mind having my beliefs tested at any level, that is how I learn most of the time. I am quickly tired of presumption though. When I come across presumption, I usually just say,"Ok, we will agree to disagree". There is very little that can be discussed with the spirit of presumption , so lets both see that and meet on mutual turf and test our understanding of things but don’t tell me that you are right and I am wrong , please, because that presumptuousness just makes me want to give up on any type of challenge to attain to the real truth. I am really not interested in your truth but rather the truth. If you have "some " truth, then I am shore I will enjoy discussing it with you.

Few, :) so, lets talk about the nicean council and Arianism and the trinity dispute. I would be interested to hear why you don’t think the trinity was used at the nicean council to combat Arianism????

I can act as the student if you wish but I am a very curious student so I hope you can teach Sheppard, could you explain this in your own words because cuts from what others say don’t do to much unless it is to make a point I suppose. Bible scripture is always welcomed as evidence though.

I do understand history well so you don’t need to worry about the articles, I read allot of them myself before. I am obviously not as versed in Greek as you Shepard but I think you miss understood my first post in the sense that I hadn’t read your post.

Celtic. :)
 
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OldShepherd

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Posted by El Pobre
From my understanding of the times (and I am not an ignorant historian) it was a time were Christianity was split between the Arian belief and what is today known as the trinity.
_____What is the source of your understanding of the times, I assume you mean 325 AD when the Nicaean council was convened? And no, Christianity was not split, one bishop, Arius, and a few of his followers were beginning to cause trouble spreading the false teaching that Jesus was not deity but was a created being.
Catholic Encyclopedia, Arianism
First among the doctrinal disputes which troubled Christians after Constantine had recognized the Church in A.D. 313, and the parent of many more during some three centuries, Arianism occupies a large place in ecclesiastical history.

Arius described the Son as a second, or inferior God, standing midway between the First Cause and creatures; as Himself made out of nothing, yet as making all things else; as existing before the worlds of the ages; and as arrayed in all divine perfections except the one which was their stay and foundation. God alone was without beginning, unoriginate; the Son was originated, and once had not existed. For all that has origin must begin to be.

Such is the genuine doctrine of Arius. Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm
_____Note, this heretical teaching did not appear until after 313 AD. and was dealt with by a council of church bishops in 325 AD.
I can’t really see how this artily says that the trinity wasn’t disputed at the nicean council because I am under the impression that it was what the whole council was set up to determine or dispute.
_____What is the source of your impression? I quoted from the same Encarta that you quoted and the article said that the primary subject of the Nicaean council was the nature of Jesus. Do you see the mention of Trinity in the article I posted,, anywhere? Please search your Encarta or any other source you care to and see if the word Trinity appears anywhere associated with the Nicaean council? I am interested in factual information not what you think or suppose
_____Here is a gross contradiction in your argument. In your earlier post you said that, “the Trinity was born” in 325 AD. Here you are saying that it was disputed at the council.
I am a little confused as to the relevance of this , to what we have talked about, although it is an interesting subject that I would love to discuss with you.
_____If you are confused then why did you bring up the idea that the Trinity was born in 325 AD or all those quotes which you claim prove Christianity was copied from pagan religions but don’t prove anything?
I must say though Sheppard, I am also of the understanding that there are hundreds of Christian sects all with there version of what the bible means, so it doesn’t really mean anything to me when someone says things like this;
_____Well actually the greatest majority of those so-called hundreds of Christian sects are irrelevant. There are any number of deluded people who decide they are the only person in the world who can correctly interpret the Bible and convince some group of people to follow him. For example, Jim Jones had about 1000 followers. David Koresh had about 100. Now if you want to discuss the mainline denominations, e.g. Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, etc. they differ mainly over church government and peripheral non-salvation issues.
Posted earlier,
If someone is publicly expounding beliefs which contradict the scriptures then Christians have the moral duty to oppose those beliefs lest the unsuspecting be misled into eternal damnation. Any beliefs, which rely on blatantly false information, also fall into this category.
It is sought of an irrelevant statement to me Sheppard on the grounds that we all have been arguing since the first century about what is true bible understanding. So how can someone in the year 2000 think there doctrine is right because I have never met two Christians that believe the bible the same way unless they were in the same bible class or a cult?
_____Your statement is irrelevant. The fact that some Christians disagree over minor issues has no bearing on this discussion. You will find that most of the arguing arises from the fact that someone who does not know their Bible, does not know the original languages, and does not know church history, quoting Biblical passages out of context, invent their own religion.
_____The way that someone can know that their beliefs are scriptural is to become as knowledgeable of those scriptures as possible, by learning the original languages, and by studying the history of the early church.
So how can you as an individual be so shore that you are right Sheppard considering there are learnered people like us that disagree on what is what in both scripture and history. Be careful of presumption brother and I will watch my approach as well. I do not mind having my beliefs tested at any level, that is how I learn most of the time. I am quickly tired of presumption though. When I come across presumption, I usually just say,"Ok, we will agree to disagree". There is very little that can be discussed with the spirit of presumption , so lets both see that and meet on mutual turf and test our understanding of things but don’t tell me that you are right and I am wrong , please, because that presumptuousness just makes me want to give up on any type of challenge to attain to the real truth. I am really not interested in your truth but rather the truth. If you have "some " truth, then I am shore I will enjoy discussing it with you.
_____You speak a lot about presumption when you are the one that has presumed something about me without any evidence, “I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone elses study hear on this subject.” You presumed that I didn’t know what I was doing and was simply following someone else’s teaching. What you falsely called presumption on my part was making a statement of fact and quoting your exact words. I see more presumption on your part. “don’t tell me that you are right and I am wrong” Show where I have ever said that. What I said and will say again if it occurs, your information is false. Not only presumptuousness but also insults, you called me foolish twice and irrational once.
Absolutely amazing. I quoted a renowned Greek language resource, R. A. Martin, proving Biblical Greek did in fact use commas, periods, colons/smeicolons, and question marks. And you went blasting right along, "I also am awear that there isn`t commas in the greek as we use our punctuation." as if nothing happened.
Few, so, lets talk about the nicean council and Arianism and the trinity dispute. I would be interested to hear why you don’t think the trinity was used at the nicean council to combat Arianism????
_____This is another contradiction. How could the Trinity be used at the Nicaean council to combat Arianism, if it was supposedly born at that council. And you have never addressed my reference to Theophilus using the term Trinity in the year 168 AD, 157 years before Nicaea, when you claimed it was born in 325 AD. According to the source that I quoted, Encarta, the term Trinity was never mentioned at the Nicaean council is that good enough? Or how about the Encyclopedia Brittanica?
Nicaea, Council of
(325), the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, meeting in ancient Nicaea (now Iznik, Tur.). It was called by the emperor Constantine I, an unbaptized catechumen, or neophyte, who presided over the opening session and took part in the discussions. He hoped a general council of the church would solve the problem created in the Eastern church by Arianism, a heresy first proposed by Arius of Alexandria that affirmed that Christ is not divine but a created being. Pope Sylvester I did not attend the council but was represented by legates.

The council condemned Arius and, with reluctance on the part of some, incorporated the nonscriptural word homoousios (“of one substance”) into a creed (the Nicene Creed) to signify the absolute equality of the Son with the Father. The emperor then exiled Arius, an act that, while manifesting a solidarity of church and state, underscored the importance of secular patronage in ecclesiastical affairs.

The council also attempted but failed to establish a uniform date for Easter. But it issued decrees on many other matters, including the proper method of consecrating bishops, a condemnation of lending money at interest by clerics, and a refusal to allow bishops, priests, and deacons to move from one church to another. Socrates Scholasticus, a 5th-century Byzantine historian, said that the council intended to make a canon enforcing celibacy of the clergy, but it failed to do so when some objected. It also confirmed the primacy of Alexandria and Jerusalem over other sees in their respective areas.

Nicaea, Council of" Encyclopædia Britannica
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=57082>
[Accessed June 23, 2002].
_____A Trinity requires three. The term Trinity nor the relationship of the Holy Spirit was ever mentioned at Nicaea!
I can act as the student if you wish but I am a very curious student so I hope you can teach Sheppard, could you explain this in your own words because cuts from what others say don’t do to much unless it is to make a point I suppose. Bible scripture is always welcomed as evidence though.
_____Well now that is going to be kind of hard to do isn’t it, since the Nicaean council and the Arian heresy are not mentioned in the Bible? I was not alive in 325 AD so I can’t very well tell you anything about it without quoting from relevant historical sources. Isn’t it hypocritical for you to post 5-6 quotes from Encarta but now you don’t want to see quotes from the sources I might refer to?
_____When you were quoting Encarta that was certainly not Bible scripture. Also I notice that you haven’t responded to my questions on all those Encarta quotes. You were supposedly showing how Christianity was copied from pagan religions. But I asked you to show me quotes from pagan sources and the Bible that are similar or the same. You said the Christianity was copied I would like to see the proof.
I do understand history well so you don’t need to worry about the articles, I read allot of them myself before. I am obviously not as versed in Greek as you Shepard but I think you miss understood my first post in the sense that I hadn’t read your post.
_____I have explained my post on the Greek language twice and I have not seen you make any attempt to correct your interpretation of Luke 23:43 based on your presumption that Biblical Greek did not have any punctuation.
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

_____And I said that all the manuscript evidence places the comma exactly where it appears in all but one English version, between “thee” and “To day.” Jesus is very clearly telling the crucified criminal that he, the criminal, would be in Paradise with Jesus that day. This interpretation does not rely on the placement of a comma. The Greek of the passage would have to be changed completely to make it say, “I say to you To day, that you will be with me in paradise (at some unspecified time in the future).
 
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celtic_crusader

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Posted by El Codger
You speak a lot about presumption when you are the one that has presumed something about me without any evidence, “I am wondering if you are simply of the belief of someone else’s study hear on this subject.” You presumed that I didn’t know what I was doing and was simply following someone else’s teaching.

This is not presumption shep, I said, "I AM WONDERING”, that is not presumption but rather a curiosity witch was apparent because you didn’t ever seem to explain your self??

This is presumption Sheppard;

I assume you mean 325 AD when the Niacin council was convened? And NO, Christianity WAS NOT split, one bishop, Arius, and a few of his followers were beginning to cause trouble spreading the false teaching that Jesus was not deity but was a created being.

That is presumption. You are so shore of your self that you speak as though you were there????


Now, you say that Arius was one bishop with small influence. That is not how I see it and I think you are wrong. At least I speak from personal opinion, were as you speak as though you are god.

If arius were such a small influence, how come they had to hold a council in nicea in 325 ad because of the spread of arianisum??? You say that the trinity is the true doctrine but then you say it wasn’t even the trinity godhead they used to defend the faith against Arianism, then what godhead did they use????

Arius had his belief spread all the way through the Eastern Church. How can you say he was such a small influence when Rome spent 300 yrs after the council, wiping the Arians out?

Hear is presumption for you Sheppard, "YOU ARE WRONG".

I have explained my post on the Greek language twice and I have not seen you make any attempt to correct your interpretation of Luke 23:43 based on your presumption that Biblical Greek did not have any punctuation.
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day salt thou are with me in paradise.


Yea, I might add to shep, you explained it very unconvincingly, so why would I take your word for it?? Why don’t you get out the Greek bible and show me so I have something to believe because if you are right, then answer my question that I mentioned;

If Jesus said to marry on the day he rose, "don’t touch me because I haven’t ascended to my father". Then, how come he told the thief that he would be with him in paradise that day????????????????????????????????


As for different denominations and the slight difference of beliefs, well, as usual, I totally disagree with you hear again Sheppard, you even failed to mention the Roman Catholic Church, which takes up the majority of all Christian denominations. They are the oldest and most established as far as scripture and knowledge goes. SO SHOULD WE BELIEVE THE ROMAN CATHOLICS BECAUSE OF THIS????

I don’t agree that the main denominations are similar at all. It seems like these are just the denominations you approve of because personally, they are extremely religious Christian sects to me, the ones you mentioned.

Sorry for disagreeing hear so much on everything Sheppard, now if you were god, then your presumption would probably have a little more influence but you understand that I can’t just take your word for it because that is what you recon, shortly you see that mate.

Celtic.
 
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Posted by Crusadder
That is presumption. You are so shore of your self that you speak as though you were there????
Wrong! I speak as someone who has read a great deal about the subject and who posted articles from three different encyclopedias to support what I said
Now, you say that Arius was one bishop with small influence. That is not how I see it and I think you are wrong. At least I speak from personal opinion, were as you speak as though you are god.
Well let me ask you again, I have already a few times. Where do you get your information on this. How can you “see it” unless you were there. If you think I am wrong then post some evidence to prove it. About Arius, I posted three separate encyclopedia, article all of which agree. And you haven’t bothered to read them. All you are capable of doing is telling me what you think, and your opinion and insulting me. No I don’t speak as though I was god. I speak as though I have studied the subject.
If arius were such a small influence, how come they had to hold a council in nicea in 325 ad because of the spread of arianisum??? You say that the trinity is the true doctrine but then you say it wasn’t even the trinity godhead they used to defend the faith against Arianism, then what godhead did they use????
Read the articles I posted or look up the history which was written by people who were there. Eusebius and Lactantius for example. They were historians, they were at the Nicaean council and they wrote down what happened.
Arius had his belief spread all the way through the Eastern Church. How can you say he was such a small influence when Rome spent 300 yrs after the council, wiping the Arians out?
False Arius only had a few followers. I can say what the histories say. All you can say is what your cult guru has told you. So far all you have said is what you think, your opinion.
Hear is presumption for you Sheppard, "YOU ARE WRONG".
People have been telling me that for years and none of them can prove anything. All you can do is screech and scream, point fingers, and call names.
 
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