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heaven when we die or resurection from the dead at the last day.????

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BULWARK, Apr 21, 2002.

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  1. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    I am confused by what I read in the bible and what christians believe????

    please help???

    in the bible it talks about god raising the dead at the last day and in many places people are still in the grave until jesus returns and then in the judgment he will raise everyone and judge them for life or death.

    BUT


    christians constantly speak of going to heaven or hell as soon as we die.

    this is very confusing for me to understand???

    so , what is it???

    do we stay alive even though we are dead and go straight to heaven or hell even though judgment day hasn`t sat yet or do we die and then jesus (the resurection and the life) will return and not leave us dead in the grave but raise us back up to eternal life as he promised.


    I thaught the promise was that he will raise us from the dead????

    please help my chaos so I can find order in christian doctrine again.
     
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  2. StPaulofHurstbridge

    StPaulofHurstbridge New Member

    38
    +0
    There are two ressurections in the Bible - blessed be they who take part in the first ressurection - for to them the second ressurection will have no power! The first ressurection is when the Lord returns - and the saints of God shall rise with Him, and rule and reign a thousand years - the second ressurection is for all those who did not make the first one - all the non faithfull - non Christians. They will be Judged on their merits - this will include all those people in history that had never even heard of God or Jesus!
    Regarding the ones who have passed before us - the dead - the bible tells us that 1) the dead remember nothing - and 2) we shall be changed in a twinkling of an eye. In other words it will seem to the dead to have happened immediately - as soon as they pass on - the next thing they remember they will be at their appointed ressurection, it does not take long for an eye to twinkle!
    Please make sure you know what ressurection you will be visiting!!!!!
    Love from Paul.
     
  3. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    Paul,
    That is exactly how I read and understand what the bible is saying.

    Amazing, truly, we see the scriptures exactly the same in this instance.

    BUT


    What is this heaven and hell thing when we die???

    After the resurrection, wont we be on earth in the new earth (after judgment that is).

    So what is this celestial heaven were we dwell after death.

    Why are Christians so adamant about this place in the heavens were we live on after death????

    I honestly can’t see anything like that from the bible????

    Heaven seems to clearly mean sky???

    So what do they mean by this place called heaven were the angels live with god and my grand parents are there or maybe there in hell.

    Is this madness? Chaos or what???

    Are my grandparents looking down on me from heaven or up from hell.

    I don’t think there is any bible for that at all so what do Christians mean by all this????

    I don’t know what to believe half the time????

    :Help:



    Do I go with the flow or stand against the grain because of the opposing Christian views???

    Chaos
     
  4. Kelier

    Kelier New Member

    64
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    I disagree. The Bible does not teach soul sleep.
    2 Corinthians 5:

    For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

    Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


    I believe that those who have died in faith go to be with the Lord, because Abraham's bosom is empty, Jesus has risen from the dead. When the Bible mentions the resurrection of the dead it is referring to the physical resurrection, glorified bodies.
    Those who have died rejecting Jesus are in Hades awaiting final judgement. The Bible says that there will ba a first resurrection and a second one which will be those who rejected Christ.
    There is more than one meaning for the word heaven in the Bible. Jesus said , "Thy kinggdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


    In Christ,
    Kelier
     
  5. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>do we stay alive even though we are dead

    Only the body dies. The soul does not die. If your born again of the Spirit, then your soul will go to heaven. If your spiritually dead, then your soul goes to hades. The body because of sin goes to the grave, 'tell the resurrection. There have been at least two recorded times when Elijah and Enoch did not suffer physical death. Their body was just translated and they went to heaven. This is a shaddow and a type of the bride who will not taste death.

    I just talked to a women at church who is 85 years old. She believes that she will still be alive when Jesus comes for His church. She does not think we have that much more time to go before the second coming. I knew her when I was a child, because she was the den mother for my cub scouts.

    As far as I am concerned, if she has faith to believe she will still be alive when Jesus returns, than Jesus says in Matthew 9:29 "According to your faith be it unto you." Thanks, JohnR7
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>There is more than one meaning for the word heaven in the Bible.

    Heaven is a place, just like Eden or Paradise is a place. For now, the Kingdom of Heaven is on the inside of us. But the time will come when we will be IN the Kingdom, and not just the Kingdom inside of us. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  7. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
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    hi kelier,
    the problem is that I (like multitudes of others) don`t read those scriptures to mean what you understand it to mean even though there are multitudes that would agree with you.

    in my way of seeing those scriptures , there is no mention of heaven or an after life other than the one at the resurection.

    it would depend on ones interpretation, do you have another scripture that says the same thing or similar??


    john,
    thats a nice philosiphy you have there. It would make you exreamly content believing it but is it true????

    do we settle for what makes us comfortable from what we have reasoned out and is reason truth???

    I would love to believe what you say john but on what grounds would I believe it unless I believed it was truly what the bible says , but I just don`t???

    so who is wright I wonder ?/

    god knows :) I wish he would let me in on his little secrets , or even all of us for that matter and then maybe we could believe the truth instead of some reasoned out fantesy that makes this life more acceptable and meaningful.

    why hasn`t god told us all the same thigs to believe John???
     
  8. Kelier

    Kelier New Member

    64
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    I think a good example is when Paul was stoned. 2 Corinthians 12. He had a glimpse of heaven.

    A better example is of Stephen being stoned. Acts 7:59:

    "And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
     
  9. Hervey

    Hervey Member

    481
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    Everyone has to wait for one of the two resurrections.

    L I C - Hervey
     
  10. BULWARK

    BULWARK Member

    126
    +0
    I see what you mean kelier but the funny thing is that I have a bit of a diffrent understanding on what those scriptures mean to.

    firstly stephen ,
    it is interesting that because stephen asked god to recieve his spirit that it would mean that stephen went to heaven???

    think about this ;

    jesus also said this to god as he died.

    luke 23:46 into thy hands I commend my spirit.

    then he went into the tomb for 3 days and rose on the third and when mary came to him, he said to her ," don`t touch me mary , because I have not yet ascended up to my father.

    so then , if jesus soul didn`t go to heaven for three days , what did he mean by saying , "father , into thy hands I comment my spirit".

    this is exactly what stephen said because it was a tradition for early christians to say that as jesus did before they were martyred.


    as for Paul and his persucution , well , this could get to long so I will settle for, I see it abit diffrently.

    kelier , is there a scripture that you know of that out right , says , "we go to heaven when we die" ???

    I would be very interested to see something so straight forward so we can all believe the same thing.

    chaos
     
  11. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    No where in the Bible does it say that we have an immortal soul. If we did, then there would be no need for the resurrection. The concept of the immortal soul started with the lie of the serpent.
    Gen 3:4 - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Hell, Hades, and Sheol are all names for the grave. Look at where they came from to find the answer.
     
  12. UnderdogEnt

    UnderdogEnt Prayer Warrior

    79
    +0
    Jesus told the criminal on the cross next to him that
    "Today you will be with me in paradise."
    I believe that when we die, we are instantly in Heaven. I subscribe to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine, and that the ressurection when Jesus returns will take up the bodies of those dead believers, as well as the bodies and souls of the pre-Jesus believers who followed God. The Bible says that they rest in the "bosom of Abraham." Jesus' words are the ultimate truth to me, so I would have to say that we go to heaven instantly.
    As for the judgement of nonbelievers, they will be judged, but none of them will be judged so as to enter heaven. "All fall short of the glory of God." No matter how many good deeds one does, the sin outweighs the good, and even one sin would make us imperfect and therefore not available to go to heaven. Asking for forgiveness through Jesus is the only way to be saved.

    John 1:14:6
    "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"
     
  13. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    +4
    United Ch. of Christ
    Actually, we aren't with God as soon as we die. It's a big misconception, you're right about that. People mean that basically it feels as if no time passes at all. Time passes real fast when you're comfortable without caring about time.
     
  14. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    LK 23:42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. " 43 Jesus answered him, "Today I tell you the truth, you will be with me in paradise."


    JN 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    2 Tim 4:8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
     
  15. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Heres an article that you might find interesting.
    The Intermediate State

    [@Hades] ("hell" in KJV) in Acts 2:27 is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew [~She'owl], which is found in the passage Peter is quoting from Psalm 16. Of the 65 times this word occurs in the Old Testament, the KJV rendered it as "hell" and "grave" 31 times each, plus 3 times as "pit." This was an unfortunate blunder, for [~Shª'owl] never means anything but the intermediate state of the soul. It is never translated in the Septuagint by [@mnema] (the Greek word for grave or tomb -- Acts 2:29), but only by Hades. Nor is the Hebrew word for grave ([~qeber]) ever translated as Hades. This demonstrates that, as David indicated, only the soul enters Sheol/Hades. The "corruption" David spoke of is the normal decay of the body. He affirms that in the case of Jesus both his soul and his undecayed body would return, obviously to be reunited in resurrection.

    Another key passage for our understanding of the intermediate state of the dead is Luke 16:19-31. There Jesus tells of an ungodly rich man who died and his body was buried, yet he (his soul) continued on in conscious existence in "Hades." A righteous beggar also died and he (his soul) was "carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom." The passage further tells us that the intermediate state has two separate divisions with an impassable gulf in between. Hades is the inclusive term for the entire realm since both the wicked (Luke 16:23) and the righteous (Acts 2:27,31) have gone there. The state of the wicked is further described as "torment" (Luke 16:23-25, 28) and the state of the righteous as "Paradise" (Luke 23:43).

    From these facts, however, we must not draw the conclusion that Hades is some one particular place as in our three-dimensional world. The word simply means "unseen," and since it is the realm of disembodied spirits, it may refer more to an unseen condition or state than to an unseen place such as has often been diagrammed on charts. The question may legitimately be asked, therefore, where the dead are actually located -- especially the righteous dead about whom we have more information.

    To answer the question, one cannot rightly appeal to Luke 23:46 and Acts 7:59, for at death every spirit, whether good or bad, "returneth unto God" (Eccl. 12:7). The spirit of every man "goeth upward" (Eccl. 3:21) to be placed where God sees fit. However, Paul said of the righteous that when our mortal body is "dissolved" we have a habitation "in the heavens" (2 Cor. 5:1). Further, Paul said that to be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8), and that he longed "to depart and be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23). It has been objected, though, that we must not ignore the omnipresence of Christ. It is true that God can be in Sheol (Ps. 139:8) and that Christ promised to be "with" us even here (Matt. 28:20), but the above verses indicate a presence with Christ in the same literal sense that we are now in the body. Here we are "absent" from him, but there we are "at home" with him. And since Jesus is in heaven (Mark 16:19), this must be where the righteous go also to be with him.

    There is other strong indication in the New Testament that Hades for the righteous is in heaven. Paul located Paradise in "the third heaven" (2 Cot. 12:1-4). The first heaven is atmospheric (Jer. 4:25), and the second is sidereal (outer space -- Isa. 13:10). The third is God's own dwelling place (Dan. 2:28) -- "the heaven of heavens" (1 Kings 8:27). Paul was caught up to the latter and into Paradise. There is only one such place, since in all three references to it (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7) it is called "the" Paradise. There the tree of life is located (Rev. 2:7), but the tree of life is in heaven (Rev. 22:1-3,14). Righteous souls are therefore in the heavenly realm. The Book of Revelation clearly pictures them there prior to judgment day in Rev. 6:9-11, and this is the consistent scene that book presents (cf. Rev. 7:9-17; 11:12; 15:1-4; 20:4-6). Finally, at the end of time, Jesus will return from heaven (2 Thess. 1:7) and bring the souls of those saints "with him" to be reunited with their resurrected bodies (1 Thess. 4:14-16).

    It has been objected that departed spirits could surely not occupy heaven without seeing God (Rev. 22:4) and that since "no man hath seen God at any time" (1 John 4:12), no human soul has gone to heaven. However, this ignores the case of Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-4), and 1 John 4:12 was written after that visit. Perhaps our seeing God is reserved only for future eternity in glorified bodies. Then again, "no man" may simply mean no mortal man on earth. Another objection is based on Acts 2:34 and John 3:13 -- that neither David nor anyone but Jesus has ascended into heaven. These passages, though, speak of bodily ascension. This is clear from the fact that Paul was "caught up" into heaven. Peter's argument is that David's body has not left its tomb and that his soul is still in Hades (Acts 2:29-31). It is only at the end of time when death is no more (1 Cor. 15:54-55) that we will be released from the grave (John 5:28-29) and ransomed from Sheol/Hades (Hos. 13:14) to be "caught up" bodily "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4:17). But the question is -- where are disembodied souls meanwhile?

    It may be that prior to the ascension of Jesus righteous souls were not yet in heaven, for Jesus went "into heaven itself" (Heb. 9:24) as a "forerunner" (Heb. 6:19-20), having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12), in order to cleanse the "heavenly things" (Heb. 9:23) and open the "way" for us (Heb. 10:19-20). Whereas Paradise/Hades may have been moved to heaven as a result of the cross, it is more certain that it is now there (however long that has been the case), for Paul affirmed that it is. There righteous souls are told to "rest" until other earthly lives are over (Rev. 6:11). We must therefore not confuse the intermediate state with some non-heavenly place. For the righteous, Hades is in the Paradise of heaven.
     
  16. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    Since there is no punctuation in Greek, how do we know that Jesus did not say "Truly I tell you today, you shall be with me in paradise"? I have seen people make this argument but I'm not versed in Greek well enough to know if this can be decided definitively from the Greek.

    -Chris
     
  17. 2002 Christian

    2002 Christian Member

    402
    +0
    We can know based on the totality of the teaching of scripture. There is no immortality or eternal life without Christ. The idea that we have it BY BIRTH does away with the need of Jesus and the gospel.
     
  18. Baptist Preacher

    Baptist Preacher New Member

    2
    +0
    Scripture says "absent from the body, present with the Lord". that is speaking of the Spirit of Believers in Christ. Believers go immediatly to heaven. As far as what is Heaven or hell, there are 2 telling things. One is, no matter how we explain it in our imagery, Heaven is in being in the presence of God. Hell is separated from God. Scripture says there is a Throne, angels, and even saints who were past martyrs who are "under the Throne of God". Christ claimed he came from there, would return there and God was there. Christ also said that He would go into Hell. When He said "into your hands I commend my spirit" he wasn't saying "into your hands in heaven" he was only saying, I trust you Father and your power as you send me into Hell as you have said you would. He had already stated he would go to hell for 3 days.

    grace, thanks for allowing me to speak
     
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