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Heaven is right here, not somewhere else and the nature of God

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Animal2692, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    All my life, I always had a very natural way of understanding Jesus & the Bible because I always trust my direct experience over conceptual belief. One thing that I could never understand is the belief of a Heaven somewhere else. I've always felt that people talk about a heaven because they made a hell of themselves. If people were truly happy, they wouldn't ask about a heaven. The idea that heaven (or a better moment) is somewhere else, is what creates hell. We take ourselves with us everywhere we go. Jesus himself said the Kingdom of Heaven is within. If someone was to ask us, "Would you rather go to Heaven, or have true happiness?" We would pick happiness everytime. So then that means a more accurate definition of heaven is peace, happiness. Some people believe that church is only on Sundays. To me, church is life itself. It's funny when you see people getting out of church and cursing right after from being stuck in traffic.

    As for God, I could never understand how God can be separate from everything in the creator-creation model. We think God is separate because we put a label on who we are. We call ourselves humans, people, male, female, etc. But these are just learned concepts and labels. Sure they are useful, but they can never be reality itself. When you go to a restaurant, do you eat the menu itself? No, because the menu is not the meal. In the same way whatever we label ourselves is not who we truly are. I'd say we all play different roles, but there is something deeper than all of that. In order to say that we are anything, we must first say, "I am." Who am I underneath the name and form? When I directly go to the sense 'I am', I don't find any limits there. No matter where I am, it is always here. No matter what time it may be, my experience is always now. That's why I always felt that God dances in time & space as the 'here & now'. Now is eternal, outside of time altogether. Everything that has happened or could happen, takes place now. My direct experience is the proof for that. When you look at a wave, is the wave not one with the ocean? If I had to find something in my experience to equate with God, I would say it is my awareness or consciousness. Without it, I wouldn't know anything. I can't find it as an object, but I know that I am conscious and that is what I really refer to when I say, "I". My awareness is the unchanging element in all experience. My thoughts change, my body changes, but I am none of these. I am the knowing of them. And despite all the different beliefs and opinions in this world, all 7 billion of us can say, "I am aware" or simply "I am". The Bible does say that 'I am' is the name of God. Perhaps we can't see God because God is doing the seeing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
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  2. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that any human is truly happy 100 percent of the time. This world is broken. It's not possible for perfection to exist here in it's present form. Yes this world will be heaven but it isn't now.
     
  3. spiritfilledjm

    spiritfilledjm Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First off, welcome!

    Heaven, for us, is the New Heaven and New Earth that comes down in Revelation 21. Hell is a literal place described in Revelation 20.
     
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  4. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    And self awareness came when Eve chose to put her will ahead of the will of God, the original sin. Out of self awareness came self interest, self servitude, self determination, etc., all which have led us to seeking gain at the expense of others. We chose our animal instincts over the spirit of God.

    Genesis 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
     
  5. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This world is run by Satan and you think it's heaven?
     
  6. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    I think Satan is used as a scapegoat to not take responsibility. It's easier to say, "The devil made me do it." Or "Satan is responsible for this." We can either choose to see the perfection in the imperfection that this moment is truly it, or continue believing in some other reality than right now. The only Satan there really is, is not taking responsibility by lying and trying to deceive ourselves to maintain a sense of self importance.

    Reality is always right now despite what form it may take. So I see it as, I have no choice but to first accept things as they are before acting because this moment is what -is-. All else would be insanity. No matter where we are, we take ourselves with us. It is always here & now. Other people may be doing all sorts of crazy things on earth but I don't worry about them because all that matters is that I left this place a little bit better than I found it. They choose to be asleep, but I don't have to be like them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  7. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Only there's no perfection in imperfection.
    And "wherever you go, there you are"?
    I'm not sure how that explains anything.
    What are the other people asleep to?
     
  8. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    You ever looked at a very abstract painting with many imperfections in it and when you took a step back, there was a certain kind of beauty to it? I think that perfection is seeing past good & bad and going past dualism. Because as long as you see something as good, you'll see some bad in it and vice versa. When we accept the good with the bad, that is the perfection I'm referring to. When I say what the other people are asleep to, I am referring to them being asleep to exactly what I just said in this post.

    I say "Wherever we go, there we are" because even when someone has everything in life, they can still find a reason to be ungrateful

    "And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding". Philippians 4:7 I'm saying it's more a matter of seeing than understanding. I can't give anyone a good enough reason to see the perfection of this world, I can only tell them to open their eyes fully. We let go of trying to understand and analyze and just see.

    We can either see ourselevs as just a fragment, a poor little 'me' sentenced to this thing called 'life" or we can see ourselves as life itself. When you can see that everything is yourself, I think that's love and what Jesus himself was awake to.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  9. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Man wrongly likes to create divisiveness between man, but God says it only exists between His will and the world we have made in our own self serving image.
     
  10. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Hi.. welcome :) a word you used 5 times "experience" can be really helpful yet as you know there are over 7billion on this blue ball and some of those "experiences" for others are a nightmare. See I think since most can not see nor feel the spiritual realm its not real. We walk by faith not sight nor by how we feel. God is on His throne in Heaven and Christ is seated at His right. Everything we see is a result of sin for sin equals death. What God does for one He will do for all so if you want to truly see ask Him. IF we were running by experiences then for me this realm this world is just a time bubble. We know this by what the demon said to Christ. "What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? ... "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

    Praise GOD glory to Jesus.. I think going any deeper would be unwise. In this now.. we love the lord our God with all our heart all our soul and all our mind for this is the first and greatest commandment. Its all about HIM not us.. love.. its all about others. To share with them that Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day. That is what this moment is all about. New heaven new earth will come as our brother said "Heaven, for us, is the New Heaven and New Earth that comes down in Revelation 21. Hell is a literal place described in Revelation 20."
     
  11. saulus paulus

    saulus paulus New Member

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    No, Satan rules this world. It is written, and you see it all around you, pick up a paper, turn on the telly, etc. Has no relation to see perfection in imperfection. Nobody wants perfection, that will go stale. Life is about being surprised. And diversity, not being attracted to the same, so the world goes around. If all sought socalled perfection, we would have 7 billion single people, and 100 million married people, and all employees would be fired, so the world would stop turning. There is an inevitable death, and then a heaven or hell, just a reality. We can choose heaven on earth before heaven in heaven, few know how
     
  12. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Hi, welcome to CF!

    There are many here that will consider philosophical type ideas like you are presenting, if you are patient.

    You did present the (very familiar idea in using the particular wording "within" (instead of the other wording), which I once emphasized myself) that 'heaven is within you' which is of course at least partly right no matter what, as Christ promised us peace if (notice the conditional) we come to Him to learn from Him (if we do that), and that means peace from the cares and conflicts of the world. "28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

    Let's look at the wording in the best modern translations:
    (all of them are listed here at this site:)
    Luke 17:21 Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

    (so we have more than only the old poetic KJV to look at)
     
  13. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Sounds more like eastern mysticism then Christianity.
    I don't think it's either " poor me" or somehow being life itself.
    Jesus is life, not us. We are given life through him.
     
  14. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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  15. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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  16. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Heaven is a constant while this world is in a state of constant renewal
     
  17. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    Jesus himself though was not the kind of man he was as a result of choosing Jesus Christ as his personal savior. I see Jesus as someone who woke up to the realization that he is God and it's also up to us to wake up to the same realization. I think Jesus saw things as an eastern mystic does and then people turned it into a religion called Christianity. Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc. Were all on the same page but had their own way of describing their realization.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  18. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    All I know is if I am already at peace with myself, I don't care about a heaven. Me being fulfilled is being in heaven. Isn't being fulfilled what we all truly want at the end of the day? The fact that this world is in a state of constant renewal is a beautiful thing. Even more reason not to hold onto anything and just enjoy the ride. If I was in a constant place with no change at all, there would be no life there, no dance happening. I would just be bored out of my mind.

    If I saw a very happy kid just living in the moment, I would not want to tell him the idea that there is a heaven somewhere because that's implying that this moment is somehow not enough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Im curious, what verse makes you think that at some point Jesus didn’t know He was God?
     
  20. Animal2692

    Animal2692 New Member

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    I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath all labels and forms?"
    I'm saying Jesus knew he was God, he was awake to it. I don't know when he woke up to that realization or if he even had to wake up to it. He was unique for sure because he knew that. That's why I think humanity is just pretending to be something else other than God and it's up to us to wake up and see what Jesus saw as well.

    I've always asked myself, "Who am I underneath this form and labels?" I call myself a person, but that's just an idea. Someone had to invent the concept of 'person'. Or any other word for that matter. When I look at a tree, there is just the isness of it, the experience that I am one with it. And then my mind comes in and says, "That is a tree." I think there's a difference between conceptual reality and what is existential.

    We all have different names, bodies, thoughts, opinions. But we all use the word "I". Before we say we are John or a human being, we have to first exist. So it's fair to say that we all share the same 'I'. One awareness, one self. That one self, is God. The isness of all things, the I am of you and me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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