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Heaven and Hell

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by DaishinKan, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. DaishinKan

    DaishinKan New Member

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    One thing that I never understood fully about this faith is the validity of our ' free will. '
    To cut to the point Matthew 7:21 " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. "

    Often we would hear people saying that God does not send anyone to hell, we chose it. But you be honest, if the only two options are either eternal torture, or eternal joy, how is that even a choice to make. You would be forced to do whatever it takes to enter heaven and avoid hell.

    Another answer is that eventually, after we come to know God more, we reach to a state of serving God out of love and not fear.
    But if a believing Christian should enter his moments of doubt and frustration in faith, he can not leave because of fear of hell.

    Both these answers make sense. But, if God is completely just, then why would even 1 un-repented sin on this temporary earth equate to an ETERNITY of torment? How?? Yes God did not make hell, the devil did, but God is still the supreme being in control. Why couldn't eternal death be complete ceasing of existence, and eternal life remain as it is? If it hurts God to have to see people in hell, then.. if you are God... do something.. lol?

    He is almighty and omnipotent, so obviously he saw the billions of souls that would be suffering after death, even before he made the 1st atom on earth. Why did he still make it? For the sake of the ones who would be saved only? Didn't he love all equally which he created?

    I simply seek a better understanding, not to presume that God is wrong, or seek rebellion etc.
    Thanks for reading and please share your thoughts.
     
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  2. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. People don't go to hell (a.k.a. lake of fire) because of their sin. They go because they prefer "darkness" that is, evil. We do not choose to go to hell but our choices reveal who we are, what we value most. God sends those who have no love whatsoever of goodness, righteousness and truth to hell just as we send murders etc to jail, not so they can be punished but so the rest of society can be protected. Hell is the eternal jail for all those who prefer evil.

    All of us are culpable of evil but that does not mean we are evil. Most of us when shown our evil will turn from it but there are some who will insist on their way until the very end. They simply cannot be allowed to remain within the eternal Kingdom of God.

    As to God only creating the souls He saw who would love righteousness when shown it? I don't know if I fully understand the answer to that but I know this much: God values freedom and we know we have real freedom by the very existence of evil.
     
  3. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Finding Truth is the most difficult thing in life.

    Why?

    For one, Truth... real honest to goodness Truth... is HATED.

    Two... because it is hated, it is CENSORED.

    Thus, much of what we are taught are LIES... and most are comfortable with said lies.

    Having said that, what we've come to know as Hell... that is to say... how the concept of Hell has been taught... or rather TOLD to us... has been done to CONCEAL Truth.

    I wish I could come right out and say what Hell is, but I'm tired of having my posts deleted and censored because of FEAR and HATRED of the Truth.

    If you are bright and if you are brave, then perhaps you can Truly understand LITERALLY what is really being said in the following verses...

    Isaiah 51:1
    "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged"


    Psalms 139:15
    "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"


    The 'Pit' and the 'Lowest parts of the Earth' are of course in reference to where the unsaved go after death.

    Yet there seems to be another meaning we're not supposed to know about.

    In fact the word is forbidden to even utter on this forum as I have found out the hard way.

    Do you understand?
     
  4. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    No one chooses hell. The choice is made for them, just as no one chooses to go to prison, that choice is made by the judge. Incidentally, God made hell - that is, the lake of fire, which is "prepared for the devil and his messengers." God orders angels to cast people into the lake of fire at the final judgment. When He says "depart from Me into the everlasting fire..." he is not inviting people to jump in, rather it is an implicit order for the death angel to cast them in.

    Fear of hell (that is, eternal condemnation, or eternal contempt) is a great motivator for people who lack the knowledge and understanding of the unconditional love of God. It is exactly where God met me many years ago. He seemed to me like a mafia boss Who gave me an offer I couldn't refuse. Heaven/hell is no choice at all for those who believe God. But for unbelievers, they think it's a myth, so they pass it off as foolishness.

    The lake of fire exists to exhibit the gravity of sin. If there were no eternal punishment, our natural minds would excuse ourselves by saying that sin is really not that bad. But in the view of the ultimate holy God, any sin incurs His wrath, because it is the ultimate rebellion against the ultimate Authority. Just eating the wrong fruit doesn't seem so bad until you realize the result was the condemnation of the whole human race by virtue of the sinful nature inherited from Adam. All sin is poison to the soul, and kills the relationship with God; that is, kills the spirit.

    It is only in view of the lake of fire that we begin to realize the true condition of our souls. It is only when we realize our abject hopelessness apart from Christ that we begin to seek for Him and reconciliation with God. In my case, it took some time for me to realize that "there is no peace for the wicked," and the most precious treasure I sought was peace with God. Hell is where the wrath of God is continually kindled, and we get a small taste of it in this life when we experience the misery of separation from God and the turmoil that comes with it.

    Conversely, heaven is where the love of God is poured out, and we can and do experience a small taste of it here when we worship Him with our lives. After we go through the fear of God's wrath as we approach Him, we begin to then experience His love for us, which we can know through the scripture and through experiencing God guiding and dealing with us.

    In Rom. 9 we learn that God created both the good and the bad for His own purpose. Unbelievers are objects of God's wrath, in order to display His true and exact justice. We believers are the exception to justice, since we are the objects of His mercy. Unbelievers don't choose hell, but they do choose a path that leads to it, and they take no heed of the warning. Believers take heed of the warning because we are granted the wisdom to believe the message and not pass it off as "myth." The gospel call is for us to seek God's help continually in this life, which is obtained through Christ. We not only escape hell by this obedience, but also are well-rewarded in the resurrection.
    TD:)
     
  5. Greg J.

    Greg J. Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Too many questions, or rather, too much to write up in response to the questions! Formulate a single question and it will probably still prompt a non-trivial response. :)
     
  6. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    How about we run with this statement?

    The infamous Lake of Fire.

    Again we are TOLD that this is the 'end of the story'. Nothing more to see here. Those tossed in 'burn forever'.

    Is this True?

    Many Christians have no idea that the Lake of Fire actually comes to us from the Old Testament... from the Valley of the Son of Hinnom.

    With this Key, One can find out what really happens to those tossed in...

    Jeremiah 32:35
    "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin"


    Did anyone catch that?

    Those tossed in the Lake of Fire do not remain there, but rather they 'pass through'.

    They go THROUGH the fire.

    Where do they go?

    To Moloch.

    Who or what is Moloch?

    Moloch is another 'Sacred Cow' god, and an evolution of an earlier 'Golden Calf'...

    Exodus 32:4
    "And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt"


    Yes, the Golden Calf of Exodus.

    The Goddess of Egypt.

    Hathor.

    [​IMG]

    HAT means Womb.
    HOR means Horus.

    The 'Womb of Horus'.

    She represents the 'Earthly Mother' where the unsaved go...

    [​IMG]

    The 'Seed' went into her...

    Leviticus 18:21
    "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"

    Leviticus 20:2
    "Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones"

    Leviticus 20:3
    "And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name"

    Leviticus 20:4
    "And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not"


    Hopefully anyone with Critical Thinking Skills can put two and two together and realize what God is so desperately trying to show modern Christians.

    Now I've probably said too much Truth here, but maybe God will allow this kind of information to remain. We'll see.
     
  7. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    The Thought Police will get me for this...

    Matthew 17:12-13
    "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist"


    They will exclaim...

    YOU CAN'T TAKE THAT LITERAL BECAUSE WE SAID SO!

    Yeah... OK.

    Elias came back as John the Baptist... period.
     
  8. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    The truth about OT history doesn't negate the future truth about the ultimate judgment written about in Rev. Whether the lake of fire is literal or not, the idea is that it is a permanent judgment, since "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Nothing in the context demands a figurative reading of this.
    TD:)
     
  9. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    We do choose hell through our actions in life.

    We have a chance to repent. To ask for forgiveness.

    God gave us free will. If we choose sin then we choose hell. Simple.
     
  10. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Who are 'they'?
     
  11. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    OK, let's keep going...

    Matthew 23:15
    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"


    Oh my.

    A 'Child of Hell'... twice even.

    How can a child be born of Hell?

    Psalms 139:15
    "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"
     
  12. DaishinKan

    DaishinKan New Member

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    You understood / regarded literally nothing I asked. My pursuit is far beyond this basic understanding.
     
  13. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    One more for today...

    Ephesians 4:9
    "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"


    This is talking about Jesus.

    Where did he go? The 'Lower Parts' of the Earth?

    Christian Scholars are baffled at what this could mean. Why?

    Because the Truth would be too revealing, so they make up excuses and say things like...

    "Jesus 'led captivity captive' by going into Hell and releasing prisoners" or some nonsense like that.

    Ah, but we have the Word of God to tell us where Jesus REALLY went...

    Psalms 139:15
    "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"


    Yes... Jesus went into the Womb.

    Who's Womb?

    Mary's of course.

    Jesus descended into the 'Lower Parts' of Mary's Womb... aka... Hell.

    BAM!

    Yeah that's right...

    Hell is nothing but a parable for the Womb... the Pit from which we are digged....

    Isaiah 51:1
    "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged"


    God's Love is far greater than any of us can imagine and thus, God gives the unsaved another chance.

    You think Satan wants the world to know this? No way.

    And there you go. Let's see how long this post lasts.

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

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    Then you are searching in the dark.
     
  15. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    The text says the devil and his messengers. But for everyone else who will also be thrown in, there is no indication from the context that their situation is different. The precedence in the context is "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" for Satan and demons, and then, when those human individuals are thrown in, nothing in the text changes that precedence. Therefore, they all "will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
    TD:)
     
  16. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Where do you think Day and Night is?

    Hint: It's not inside of a Lake.

    Day and Night is here... in this World.

    And this World is full of Torments and Everlasting Destruction and contempt.

    This is Hell... one of three actually.

    Just as there are Three Heavens, there are likewise Three Hells.

    Satan always has a counterfeit, remember?

    As I've laid out earlier in the thread... the Lake of Fire is merely a Portal that leads back into our Universe.

    The entire thing is a loop...

    Ecclesiastes 1:9
    "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun"


    When Christians finally learn to accept what is written in their Bibles, maybe then we can finally have some real Illumination.

    No new thing means no new thing.

    What will be, has been already. The whole Kit and Kaboodle.

    Those unwilling to believe the above verse will never see it.

    The Book of Revelation connects right back into Genesis.

    It's a perpetual cycle...

    Ecclesiastes 1:7
    "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again"
     
  17. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Speaking of returning again...

    Job 1:21
    "And said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD"


    Now why would Job say he would return back to his Mother's Womb?

    Just to be dramatic?

    No... he assumed he was going to Hell... aka... his Mother's Womb to come back for another try.

    Look...

    Ecclesiastes 5:15
    "As he came forth of his mother’s womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand"


    Note that these verses are not saying they die naked... they say they will return to the Womb naked!
     
  18. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Let's try another approach... again, using the Word of God to settle this.

    We are taught that Humans are...

    1) Body
    2) Soul
    3) Spirit


    We know what happens to the Body at death. It dissolves and withers away.

    That leaves us with...

    2) Soul
    3) Spirit


    What happens to the Soul of the unsaved?

    Matthew 10:28
    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"


    OK, now the Soul is destroyed, leaving us with...

    3) Spirit

    God has an answer for that too...

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"


    And there you have it.

    The Spirit, lacking Soul and Body, goes back to God.

    Why?

    For another try!

    A New Body and New Soul, yet SAME SPIRIT...

    Luke 1:17
    "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord"


    Literal people!!!

    Say it with me...

    LITERAL.

    Elias came back as John the Baptist... literally.

    Don't you dare tell me "You can't take that literal".

    Why?

    The Forbidden Word... and the Forbidden Truth... that's why.
     
  19. Uncle Mikey

    Uncle Mikey Declare all that thou seest. Supporter

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    Well, since I'm on a roll here...

    Matthew 11:11
    "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he"


    Now why would Jesus say such a thing!

    If One were to take that literal... as they should... Jesus just told everyone that John the Baptist is NOT IN HEAVEN!

    Whaaaat!!?!?

    Of course...

    As we already learned... John the Baptist is Elias.

    It is Elias that goes to Heaven.

    In fact, many believe Elias comes back again in the Final Days.

    Oh, but we're not allowed to believe in that 'rebirth' nonsense right?

    Heck... what about the Two Witnesses as an Old Testament Spirit returning from the dead?

    LOL! Christians argue about that all day long, but never do they speak of how these Two Witness are 'Twice Born' into Human flesh.

    Forbidden!!! Lol.

    :rolleyes:
     
  20. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

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    So it's a roll you're on ... and here's me thinking it was LSD. :p ;) LOL
     
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