Heaven: a perfect state or a progressively fulfilling state?

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have been reading Hans Boersma's Seeing God:The Beatific Vision in Christian Tradition (see below). There seems to be two general schools of thought concerning the state of the saints in heaven.

1. The perfect state: The saints in heaven are in perfect bliss. This is usually accounted for by the fact that they "see" the essence of God. Thomas Aquinas seems to have held this position.

2. The progressively fulfilling state: The saints are not in perfect bliss, but experience a progressively fulfilling state of bliss. This is usually accounted for by the fact that God is infinite and therefore the divine essence cannot be comprehended. Nonetheless, there is an ever-advancing state of bliss that the saint in heaven experiences. Gregory of Nyssa and Jonathan Edwards held this position.

Both of these positions assume that the saints in heaven will be perfectly free from sin. The difference is how they experience God: either as a perfect comprehension or a progressive comprehension.

My position is "The progressively fulfilling state." Because God is infinite, God is not comprehendible by a created being. I heard it explained once as a state of simultaneous desire and fulfillment: perfectly desiring God and perfectly being satiated by God, at an ever increasing rate. So, we spend eternity knowing and enjoying God more and more and more...for eternity.

But, it seems that many assume that in heaven we will be perfect in every way. Not only will the saints be perfectly free from sin, but will also have perfect bliss, perfect knowledge, perfect so on.

What do you think? Is heaven a perfect state or a progressively fulfilling state?

https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-God-Beatific-Christian-Tradition/dp/0802876048
 

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
As both those assumptions can be experienced here in this life, I would be prone to say that the Kingdom will be a place where those who cherish the self interest of man will not be allowed. Anyone who has experienced the true form of God will understand Jesus' teachings about that, and anyone who understands those teachings should find it easy to see God for what God is. The trick is to stop trying to see God through man's eyes. God is singular and not multi-faceted like man likes to see everything. To experience Him is to seek the simplest form.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
But, it seems that many assume that in heaven we will be perfect in every way. Not only will the saints be perfectly free from sin, but will also have perfect bliss, perfect knowledge, perfect so on.

What do you think? Is heaven a perfect state or a progressively fulfilling state?
Don't assume anything not in TORAH/ PROPHETS/ PSALMS/ NEW TESTAMENT.

Heaven in the life to come is of course absolutely, totally perfect, as Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Is, and As He Designed/Planned/ Purposed Always, All Along.

Saints today may already be perfect, the way Yahuweh's Word Says and Uses the word "perfect" in the original.
Saints in the NT (in Union with the Father and with the Son) already had unsearchable, unlimited Peace, Joy and Righteousness that the world cannot know nor comprehend.

Certainly Ekklesia in the life to come, resurrected to eternal life with Yahushua Hamashiach, and as written "will be like Him, as He is" or something like that in the NT written....
will be perfect in every way, totally free from the power of sin, the power of the flesh , and the power of the devil,
and with perfect JOYOUSNESS REJOICING ALWAYS - better than bliss!!!, and perfect circumstances/ conditions (NOTHING by chance, but all CREATED BY YAHUWEH THAT WAY ON HIS PERFECT PLAN, by and with HIS PERFECT PROVISION) .... as revealed by and in His Word and from Him in heaven to His little children today.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
and as written "will be like Him, as He is" or something like that in the NT written....
will be perfect in every way, totally free from the power of sin, the power of the flesh , and the power of the devil,
The two shall become one. Man split in two with the knowledge of good and evil. The Kingdom reunites.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
As both those assumptions can be experienced here in this life,
The possibility of experiencing the beatific vision in this life does come up in the book.

Historically speaking, the Transfiguration of our Lord has often been a primary source from the scriptures for thinking about this topic (Luke 9:28-36). Aquinas saw the Transfiguration as given for a source of encouragement, an impetus for followers who expect to see the Lord face to face. But, in general, it was considered a moment in which the Glory of God, understood in some way as the Object of the beatific vision, broke into the mundane realm.

Also, personal experience comes up. For instance, Jonathan Edward's wife, Sarah, had several experiences that Jonathan talks about in relation to the beatific vision.

Here's a great quote by Jonathan Edwards on the beatific vision, "The happiness of seeing God is a pure sweet without any mixture. That pleasure has the best claim to be called man's true happiness that comes unmixed, that has no alloy. But so doth the joy of seeing God; it neither brings any bitterness, neither will it suffer any." Jonathan Edwards from "Pure in Heart Blessed."

I love that. Seeing God doesn't bring any bitterness, and it doesn't have much patience for bitterness, either. Good to know. :)
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Certainly Ekklesia in the life to come, resurrected to eternal life with Yahushua Hamashiach, and as written "will be like Him, as He is" or something like that in the NT written....

That's a good point. 1 John 3:2. "...we will be like him, for we will see him as he is." So, you say we will be perfect. I certainly understand why. Thank you for replying.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
That's a good point. 1 John 3:2. "...we will be like him, for we will see him as he is." So, you say we will be perfect. I certainly understand why. Thank you for replying.
I did not mean that anyone should wait and hope to be made right with God after they die - no.

They should turn to Yahuweh Sovereign Creator, (God), because His Kingdom IS AT HAND (yes, close by) As Jesus Says.

Jesus also says "I know you don't know how to live - COME TO ME, and I WILL SHOW YOU HOW" to HIS STUDENTS (disciples) .... and HE EXPLAINS THEN, what HE MEANS, when HE SAYS "you must BE PERFECT, because your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (it does NOT MEAN what it means in English language) ... Closer to "mature", "doing all you can", like a football player might well be called "perfect", not at all meaning perfect in every way and totally free of defects, no, but perfect in obedience, learning the moves and plays, and doing all that he's told to do willingly with JOYOUSNESS ...

yet again as Yahuweh Says "Serve ME with ALL of your heart" 100%, not part of it....
as HE accomplishes HIS WILL
in our lives now today on earth, as we trust in Him and rely on Him and do as He Says Clearly....
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I did not mean that anyone should wait and hope to be made right with God after they die - no.

They should turn to Yahuweh Sovereign Creator, (God), because His Kingdom IS AT HAND (yes, close by) As Jesus Says.

Jesus also says "I know you don't know how to live - COME TO ME, and I WILL SHOW YOU HOW" to HIS STUDENTS (disciples) .... and HE EXPLAINS THEN, what HE MEANS, when HE SAYS "you must BE PERFECT, because your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (it does NOT MEAN what it means in English language) ... Closer to "mature", "doing all you can", like a football player might well be called "perfect", not at all meaning perfect in every way and totally free of defects, no, but perfect in obedience, learning the moves and plays, and doing all that he's told to do willingly with JOYOUSNESS ...

yet again as Yahuweh Says "Serve ME with ALL of your heart" 100%, not part of it....
as HE accomplishes HIS WILL
in our lives now today on earth, as we trust in Him and rely on Him and do as He Says Clearly....

I see what you're saying. Nonethless, you do agree that 1 John 3:2 is in reference to what we will be, and not yet are, right? In light of the subject of the OP and 1 John 3:2, would you agree that we will become what has yet to be revealed, except perhaps, at the Transfiguration?
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I love that. Seeing God doesn't bring any bitterness, and it doesn't have much patience for bitterness, either. Good to know.
Yes, experiencing love in it's purest form (and understanding who we really are) will do that.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I have been reading Hans Boersma's Seeing God:The Beatific Vision in Christian Tradition (see below). There seems to be two general schools of thought concerning the state of the saints in heaven.

1. The perfect state: The saints in heaven are in perfect bliss. This is usually accounted for by the fact that they "see" the essence of God. Thomas Aquinas seems to have held this position.

2. The progressively fulfilling state: The saints are not in perfect bliss, but experience a progressively fulfilling state of bliss. This is usually accounted for by the fact that God is infinite and therefore the divine essence cannot be comprehended. Nonetheless, there is an ever-advancing state of bliss that the saint in heaven experiences. Gregory of Nyssa and Jonathan Edwards held this position.

Both of these positions assume that the saints in heaven will be perfectly free from sin. The difference is how they experience God: either as a perfect comprehension or a progressive comprehension.

My position is "The progressively fulfilling state." Because God is infinite, God is not comprehendible by a created being. I heard it explained once as a state of simultaneous desire and fulfillment: perfectly desiring God and perfectly being satiated by God, at an ever increasing rate. So, we spend eternity knowing and enjoying God more and more and more...for eternity.

But, it seems that many assume that in heaven we will be perfect in every way. Not only will the saints be perfectly free from sin, but will also have perfect bliss, perfect knowledge, perfect so on.

What do you think? Is heaven a perfect state or a progressively fulfilling state?

https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-God-Beatific-Christian-Tradition/dp/0802876048
Somehow I'm not sure that Aquinas would argue with that. I tend to believe we'll be plumbing the bottomless depths of God eternally, with greater and greater fulfillment, ecstasy, awe, comprehension, and even justice, defined as love, resulting.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Somehow I'm not sure that Aquinas would argue with that. I tend to believe we'll be plumbing the bottomless depths of God eternally, with greater and greater fulfillment, ecstasy, awe, comprehension, and even justice, defined as love, resulting.

If you are saying that Aquinas would hold to the progressive fulfilment view, you may very well be right. I'm getting my information in the OP from Boersma. That being said, he is citing the Summa Theologica in support. So, for instance, he says

"...Aquinas is willing to say that there will nonetheless be some kind of comprehension in the eschaton. With an appeal to 1 Corinthians 9:24 and 2 Timothy 4:7-8, Aquinas insists that God can be comprehended in the sense that we can, as it were, reach or attain to him" (Boersma 380).

It may be that Boersma's reading is off, but I haven't checked it against the Summa to say. The reason for this notion that we will be able to comprehend God (in the strongest sense) is that in the eschaton we will perceive God's essence.

Whatever the case, I agree with you. I think it will be a state of greater and greater fulfillment. My main reason for thinking so is because God is Infinite Spirit, Eternal Being, and whatever other great making superlative is appropriate. Wouldn't we have to be God to comprehend God in that way? And, of course, that's absurd. So, I hold that we will participate and enjoy the divine essence, but not comprehend it in total.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,526
✟320,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If you are saying that Aquinas would hold to the progressive fulfilment view, you may very well be right. I'm getting my information in the OP from Boersma. That being said, he is citing the Summa Theologica in support. So, for instance, he says

"...Aquinas is willing to say that there will nonetheless be some kind of comprehension in the eschaton. With an appeal to 1 Corinthians 9:24 and 2 Timothy 4:7-8, Aquinas insists that God can be comprehended in the sense that we can, as it were, reach or attain to him" (Boersma 380).

It may be that Boersma's reading is off, but I haven't checked it against the Summa to say. The reason for this notion that we will be able to comprehend God (in the strongest sense) is that in the eschaton we will perceive God's essence.

Whatever the case, I agree with you. I think it will be a state of greater and greater fulfillment. My main reason for thinking so is because God is Infinite Spirit, Eternal Being, and whatever other great making superlative is appropriate. Wouldn't we have to be God to comprehend God in that way? And, of course, that's absurd. So, I hold that we will participate and enjoy the divine essence, but not comprehend it in total.
I know the RCC teaches, primarily via Aquinas I believe, that we cannot comprehend God which would mean to know Him in His entirety, but still, yes, we can perceive His essence directly strictly as a gift since we're not naturally endowed or in any case capable of doing so. People have even been given a "glimpse" of that vision here on earth from time to time down through the centuries, for God's purposes, at His discretion, said to be absolutely enthralling, ineffably profound, producing sheer ecstasy in all the right ways-that which we were made for.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I know the RCC teaches, primarily via Aquinas I believe, that we cannot comprehend God which would mean to know Him in His entirety, but still, yes, we can perceive His essence directly strictly as a gift since we're not naturally endowed or in any case capable of doing so. People have even been given a "glimpse" of that vision here on earth from time to time down through the centuries, for God's purposes, at His discretion, said to be absolutely enthralling, ineffably profound, producing sheer ecstasy in all the right ways-that which we were made for.

That's a great way of putting it. It's a fantastic thought. I long to see God.

So, your saying that for Aquinas seeing God's essence, strictly as a gift, does not necessarily entail comprehending God. I can go along with that.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0