Health and the Gospel

[Mandy]

Amen Vow!

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Where in the Bible does it say that Timothy was lacking faith?"

The Bible does not say that. But we assume that since he was sick frequently, he lacked faith in the area of healing. This is not the same as saying he was a faithless servant of God in a general sense. No one is saying that. But what some here are accusing us of saying.

On the otherhand, I might argue that Tim knew better that being frequently sick was not God's plan for him. Common spiritual sense wld tell anyone that you cant serve God as well as you want to if you're sick half the time can you. So perhaps he was believing God for an answer to his problem; God used Paul who wrote to Tim: "Hey take some wine, dont drink only water". Tim got his answer or direction from God, was obedient and improved his health to the glory of God. I choose to speculate that then to speculate that Tim, after reading Paul's instruction for his illness, simply chuck it aside and ignored Paul -- and stayed sick.

In fact, we who believe in healing (as God's will) sometimes get our healing thru practical wisdom. It's not always angels and miraculous instant healings. many a times its rest more, stop overdoing that, cut down on the caffeine, sugar etc.

finally, the crux of the healing and prosperity debate is whether one can see that they are part of redemption. Once you can see that, there's no more argument. Otherwise, we can argue till Christ comes back!

For you to say that Timothy was lacking faith in the area of healing is completely unfounded and nothing more than pure speculation. Yes God heals, but doesn't heal everyone. Do you ever get a cold or the flu? What would you think if you were to someday discover you have cancer or some other serious illness?

 

[LouisBooth]

"But we assume that since he was sick frequently, he lacked faith in the area of healing"

You're wrong in assuming that then andrew. Paul clearly says that timothy had GREAT faith period. You're just twisting scripture to try and get it to make it say what you want it to. You leave out context and insert words into scripture. That's false teaching pure and simple. Now would you like to discuss it in context without twisting it and see what it says?

 

[Andrew]

Mandy,
"For you to say that Timothy was lacking faith in the area of healing is completely unfounded and nothing more than pure speculation."
It is also pure speculation to say that Tim was sick till he died. But if you prefer to believe a negative speculation, that's up to you.

"Yes God heals, but doesn't heal everyone."
Well, I'd like to see examples/proof from the NT. And pls dont use Tim coz with been thru it and the explanations have been given. Forget Paul too becos scholars alredy know the thorn in his flesh aint sickness (I can give you a whole chap on it if you are interesteed).

quote: "What would you think if you were to someday discover you have cancer or some other serious illness?"

Well, I'll just confess the word and receive my healing. At least I know what direction to take, instead of thanking God for the cancer and dying from it.

 

[Andrew]

"Paul clearly says that timothy had GREAT faith period."

Gimme chap and verse, I wld like to read for myself.

"Now would you like to discuss it in context without twisting it and see what it says?"

Perhaps no longer with you, cos you dont even seem to read posts carefully, and are always making strawmen, as others have experienced.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Gimme chap and verse, I wld like to read for myself.
"

I did a lloonnng time ago.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. Just to help you out the word there used to describe his faith is anupokritos.

"Perhaps no longer with you, cos you dont even seem to read posts carefully, and are always making strawmen, as others have experienced."

*sigh* I just quote you and show how that docterine is wrong bibilically. You need to read a book called counterfit revival.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
Just to help you out the word there used to describe his faith is anupokritos.

Unfeigned means sincere, not strong. The idea Paul is conveying is that the faith of Timothy was sincere, and not being acted out. He not being two faced about it,  not just putting on a show.

Here are some other versions, most of which translate unfeigned (anupokritou) as "sincere". The word is based on the greek "hupokrites" from which we get our word "hypocrite".

ISBD (see below) rightly says about this phrase that it is  "designative of the moral quality of faith". Moral quality, not strength or amount.


(ISV) I am reminded of your sincere faith, which lived first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am convinced that this faith also lives in you.


(LITV) taking recollection of the unpretended faith in you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice, and I am assured that it is also in you.

(NASB) For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well.

(NASB+) For I am mindful5280 of the sincere505 faith4102 within1722 you, which3748 first4413 dwelt1774 in your grandmother3125 Lois3090 and your mother3384 Eunice2131, and I am sure3982 that it is in you as well2532.


(Webster) When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

(WNT) For I recall the sincere faith which is in your heart--a faith which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and then in your mother Eunice, and, I am fully convinced, now dwells in you also.


Vines Greek Dictionary:
<C-1,Adjective,505,anupokritos>
from a, negative, n, euphonic, and an adjectival form corresponding to A, signifies "unfeigned;" it is said of love, 2Co_6:6; 1Pe_1:22; Rom_12:9, AV, "without dissimulation," RV, "without hypocrisy;" of faith, 1Ti_1:5; 2Ti_1:5, "unfeigned;" of the wisdom that is from above, Jam_3:17, "without hypocrisy."


The Internation Standard Bible Dictionary
Unfeigned
un-fand' (anupokritos, "unfeigned," "undisguised"): The Greek word occurs only in the New Testament (1Ti_1:5; 2Ti_1:5) and is designative of the moral quality of faith as "the mark of transparency and simplicity of soul--the most complete and distinct exponent of a man's character--the natural hypothesis of a pure and good heart--a readiness to believe in goodness" (Martineau, Hours of Thought, First Series, 86 ff.). Compare 2Co_6:6; 1Pe_1:22; Jam_3:17.

 

Stongs
αnνυπόκριτος
anupokritos
an-oo-pok'-ree-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of G5271; undissembled, that is, sincere: - without dissimulation (hypocrisy), unfeigned.


 

 

[LouisBooth]

"He not being two faced about it, not just putting on a show. "

Ie he was faithful. Get the point?
He was a faithful person and was sick all the time. So that clearly contradicts that docterine. Jacob was another good example. Paul is another one. He is faithful and asks God to take it away and God says NO. There are also biblical instatnces where God sent sickness to israel and allowed them to be attacked. I repeat again, your faith is not greater then God. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Andrew]

AMEN Hobart, I just checked my Strong's and it says the same thing : unfeigned faith --

505 \~anupokritov\~ anupokritos {an-oo-pok'-ree-tos}

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of
5271; TDNT - 8:570,1235; adj

AV - unfeigned 4, without dissimulation 1, without hypocrisy 1; 6

1) unfeigned, undisguised, sincere

so i guess scripture DOES NOT say Tim has GREAT faith, unless it's mentioned somewhere else.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"He not being two faced about it, not just putting on a show. "

Ie he was faithful. Get the point?

Yes... he was faithful.


He was a faithful person and was sick all the time.

Yes, he was faithful  and sick

So that clearly contradicts that docterine.

He had sincere faith and was sick... what doctrine does this contradict?

Jacob was another good example.

Fine... if you wrestle with God, we will grant you a dislocated hip... let me know so I can get a ringside seat. Until then.. your hip will just have to remain intact. 

 
Paul is another one. He is faithful and asks God to take it away and God says NO.

Paul was not sick. There is undenialble proof that the thing that oppressed Paul was a messenger from satan, or a demon sent to buffet him in his work. No sickness. He asked God to take it away. And God did not say "no". God told him that His grace was sufficent to do the job. IOWs Paul had everything He needed to remove this demonic presence. God in essence told him to do it himself.

There are also biblical instatnces where God sent sickness to israel and allowed them to be attacked.

Only as a result of their disobedience and sin. This is in complete agreement with the curses and blessing of Deut 28.  

I repeat again, your faith is not greater then God. Sorry to burst your bubble. 

The phantom poster strikes again... no one is saying that their faith is greater than God.

And no, we were not on the grassy knoll and we did not kill Kennedy. (I just wanted to pre-empt that before it got thrown at us too!)

 

[Andrew]

God permitted sickness in the OT but He did not cause or author it. Greek permissive tense explanation. Got this from a website.....
---------------
There are many scriptures in the Old Testament that would lead us to believe that;
God Himself puts sickness and affections on His people.
(Deu 28:27-28 KJV)
27; The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28; The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
That God creates evil.
(Isa 45:7 KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Now lets look at something James said in the New Testament.
(James 1:13 to 17 KJV)
13; Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14; But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15; Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16; Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17; Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
ÊÊÊ That's why James said; "Do not err, my beloved brethren."Ê in other words,... This is a good place to miss it.
ÊÊÊ Nevertheless two conflicting statements can not both be true! What can you do? See what Jesus has to say about it!
(John 10:10 KJV)
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
ÊÊ Now here is more good news; Dr. Robert Young, author 0f "Young's Analytical Concordance" and "Hints To Bible Interpretation" points out that in the original Hebrew, the verb is in the permissive rather than the causative sense.

Actually Deut. 28:27; should have been translated something like,
"The Lord will allow these plagues to be brought upon you........"
ÊÊÊ
The original Hebrew of these scriptures was in the permissive tense, but because the English language has no corresponding permissive tense, the verbs were translated in the causative tense.

More at
http://www.cwcomkw.com/studies/context.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Contextual Study Of The Words Saved/Salvation
ÊIf the words Salvation and Saved only meant spiritual salvation then it would not have the meaning in the Greek of rescue or safety, physical or moral would it? It is used 44 times in 42 verses.
4991. soteria, so-tay-ree'-ah; fem. of a der. of G4990 as (prop. abstr.) noun; rescue or safety (phys. or mor.):--deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
The other Greek word translated in the NT is;
4982. sozo, sode'-zo; from a prim.Ê sos (contr. for obsol.Ê saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (lit. or fig.):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
It is used a 120 times in 103 verses.

 

[LouisBooth]

"He had sincere faith and was sick... what doctrine does this contradict? "

that someone can't be sick and faithful at the same time. Thus God doesn't always heal if you ask for it no matter how much faith you have.

"Paul was not sick. "

So why does he relate his thorn to PHYSICAL things? Context holbert..context.

"God in essence told him to do it himself. "
No...God said live with it.

"And no, we were not on the grassy knoll and we did not kill Kennedy. (I just wanted to pre-empt that before it got thrown at us too!)"

that's right, and by your accounts he wasn't a faithful person either, that heathen..he died..so no faith for him.

 

[LouisBooth]

"God permitted sickness in the OT but He did not cause or author it. Greek permissive tense explanation. Got this from a website..... "

*chuckles* so I guess it wasn't God that gave Jacob a limp...hmm...WRONG. God did it.

Umm..that's a personal homepage...I'm not even going to go to the credability card. find it on equip.org or carm.org or some other place like then, then I'd give some weight to it..or give it to me IN PRINT. Its clear in some passages that God allowed and put sickness on people.

 

[Andrew]

it wasnt meant for you Louis.

 

[LouisBooth]

Okay, then andrew, for future reference, PM someone and do not publiclly post it.

 

[12volt_man]

I still want to know why timothy was always sick..was he not faithful enough?

no one who believes in this name it claim it (in my opinion) false docterine can answer me that.

What you have to remember is that the WoF movement (and you're right, it is false doctrine) has a unique take on sickness and death.

When a WoF leader is sick or dies, it's because (a) the Devil is attacking their ministry or (b) God has called them home.

When one of the rank and file gets sick or dies, it's because they didn't have enough faith or they spoke "words of destruction".